What size on raids do YOU want?

[Deleted]

The problem with large groups is that they limit the importance of any given player (there's 30 dps, who cares if one of them does well or badly?), or it rests a disproportionate amount of the responsibility on a few people (classically, this was often the main tank) and really it enforces a less tightly tuned encounter. It also tends to mean that the proportion of roles is even further from the 5-man group composition which is an issue for aspiring tanks and healers. Many people do feel that large groups feel more "epic" though.

The problems with small groups are that they can be over-tuned (like T11 10-man heroic) such that class/spec discrepancies and buff/debuff coverage make group composition very important and that with the current loot model, it's less likely that a given target piece of loot will be dropped. Many people do feel that small groups are easier to organise and are a more feasible "friends" group size (though this often comflicts with the tuning issue).

Originally I thought that the 10 and 25-man split was a really good idea, and compared to the Vanilla and BC models I think it is a huge improvement, but after living with it for a couple of years I think it causes quite a lot of hassle and I'm not sure it's the best approach: one raid size would simply be easier to deal with.

In Wrath I quite enjoyed running 10-mans on my alts or off-days, but it was always strange to me that 10-man heroics were harder than 25-man normals, but dropped much less, usually worse gear, except with the odd piece where itemisation meant that the 10-man heroic piece was better than any of the 25-man normal pieces, that was a pain.

I don't think that it's possible to truly balance 10 and 25-man raiding so that they're the same difficulty (though Blizzard have got it closer than I thought they would), and that they reward participation the same. Any discrepancy is a cause of conflict and irritation and I just think it would be easier all round to go to raids of a single size: everyone would know where they stood, everyone would know what was required, nobody would feel slighted or advantaged or be looked down upon as currently happens with the choice of raid sizes.

I'm not sure what the best raid size would be, I voted for and am inclined to say 25-man, but maybe that's just what I've become accustomed to!

[bergmann620]

I read your positives about 40-man and all I can think is for a guild with nobody who jumps into lava and with a full set of skilled raiders and not gearing raiders, the raid will be easy. This isn't Vanilla, today everyone has the right spec and are expected to perform. This means that raids must reflect this in difficulty, making it a no-fail zone in order to get challenging kills for top guilds.

- - - - - -

My input would be to trust the Devs, but I would certainly oppose them if they attempted to change the size mid-expansion. It is deadly for guilds requiring a size change. It must be done on the release of the next expansion, where the death of guilds is expected.

Yea, I get that. I also kind of think that's where Blizz stepped off the track in my eyes.

WoW has gotten to the point where it's a purely engineered world- everything is purpose-driven, balanced and tuned, even if things still don't play out the way they plan all the time.

WoW in the original time of 40-man raids was a much more organic experience- they just put the world at your feet, and let you find your way. The idea was to adapt 'yourself' to the demands of the game.

In order to chase ever-larger numbers, Blizzard has changed that idea to changing the game to meet the demands of the player; With there being no consensus on what the 'player' wants, you end up with the muddled mess in front of us today.

I don't begrudge Blizzard their money or their player base; I just feel like they have 'gone corporate' in the sense that business now drives the gameplay, rather that the gameplay driving their business.

[voidillusion]

15 or 20, but please only 1 kind, 10 mans are ruining it for 25 man guilds.

[Demonidze]

15-20 is kind of perfect.

[Deleted]

15 i think. In my mind its best of both worlds.

[Deleted]

Tbh, I would like to have a real RAID, which would mean 100 people

Only if such thing would be achievable in WoW atm

[Hyve]

15 Man Raids would be ideal. As a 10 Man Raider, I prefer to feel that my actions, and the actions of my peers are more detrimental and overly important, then in 25 man where you're playing a smaller part.

I know 25 does have it's issues, but I prefer 10, and if they converted 10 into 15, i'd be so happy!

[Vysala]

I would soo love 15 man raids. We always never had enough for 25's and always had too many people wanting to go to 10 mans. Since we are a small friends guild, playing with everyone would have made me far happier. So 10/15/25 would be super nice imo.

Additionally I love soloing and a 1 man solo challenge would be very cool to me. =)

[asharia]

15 sounds like a nice number. sometimes 10man feels too small.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 03:51 AM ----------

15 or 20, but please only 1 kind, 10 mans are ruining it for 25 man guilds.

how so?

[voidillusion]

how so?

How so???? How many "healthy" 25 man guilds fragmented into 10 mans since the begining of this expac? How many 25 man guilds did you have active before and how many do you have now? Hell, on wow progress find me a server with more than 3 25 guilds per faction actually doing more than lets say.... 1/7 normal.....

[bergmann620]

To me, 'raiding' just isn't raiding unless you have a sizable force. At a minimum, 30.

Really, the idea I have often put forward is to vary difficulty based on player size, so as to maximize time spent developing NEW content.

Make 1 set of dungeons, and one set of raids.

The standard group for a normal dungeon is 10 players (1 tank, 1-2 healers) and if you go with 5 players, that is considered "Heroic."

The standard group for a raid is 40, and if you go with a group of 30 or less, it is considered "Heroic."

In both situations, it is tuned to be difficult with the smaller group size.

In dungeon encounters, this would also really speed the queue for normal modes.

[Zwen]

I answered 15 man, but if we are dreaming, then I want scalable raids.

I want to be able to go in with X number of raiders and have the difficulty scale to that number and scale the number of loot drops.

If I was really smoking something I'd like it to also scale to the highest level toon in the raid, but companies always want you craving the new so they aren't going to do that.

There would probably be people finding the sweet spot of raid comps to take down this or that boss, but it would be nice to have the option of taking everyone that wants to go. I hate benching anyone that is good.

[Arborus]

Solo raids, so If I wipe I only have myself to blame.

[Mr. Casual]

i voted for 15 man because right now my guild is carrying some super baddies which is really hurting but we dont have enough fat to trim to get to 10man so 15 is perfect

[Deleted]

How so???? How many "healthy" 25 man guilds fragmented into 10 mans since the begining of this expac? How many 25 man guilds did you have active before and how many do you have now? Hell, on wow progress find me a server with more than 3 25 guilds per faction actually doing more than lets say.... 1/7 normal.....

And you cant grasp from that that maybe, just MAYBE the majority of ppl prefer 10 mans?

[bergmann620]

And you cant grasp from that that maybe, just MAYBE the majority of ppl prefer 10 mans?

Actually, the VAST majority of people prefer 5-mans. Taken to extremes, you could say that an even more vast majority prefer solo quests to 5-mans. Why not make all "Raids" solo, so the most people possible can 'overcome' them?

[voidillusion]

And you cant grasp from that that maybe, just MAYBE the majority of ppl prefer 10 mans?

Yes i can, the same way you can grasp for sure that ppl that prefer to raid 25 shouldnt suffer because of that.

[Donalduckadin]

I wish they would just make 25-man raids and forget 10-mans. Why even bother having different raid sizes if you get the same gear from them?

[Glasse]

40 man everything

bring it back

[Pancaspe]

I love 25 man raids.

10 just does not feel like a raid.