Forced health care mandate in Obamacare struck down in court

[Twiddly]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44121956.../#.TkVxhoK-2Gc

Obviously expected to be appealed and heard, all the way to the supreme court. I personally agree that it is waaay overstepping the boundaries of our politics, and seems downright unconstitutional to me. Being threatened with fines/jail time because you cannot afford/do not want to have this health care system is not really what I think of when I think of freedom.

And before someone brings up taxes as something I do not want to pay or be threatened with jail time, it is a completely different story. Although I would gladly pay higher taxes if the government would cut the pork


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...80879#44080879 (Not related to obamacare, but very important views on our political/financial system, please watch if you have the time, about five minutes long)

[Wells]

Being threatened with fines/jail time because you cannot afford/do not want to have this health care system is not really what I think of when I think of freedom.

There is no jail time associated with not having insurance under the bill.

Keep in mind this ruling doesn't invalidate the entire bill either, they only ruled against the mandate.

2 to 1 decision.

The 11th circuit does have a reputation as a somewhat more conservative court as well.

[Twiddly]

There is no jail time associated with not having insurance under the bill.

Keep in mind this ruling doesn't invalidate the entire bill either, they only ruled against the mandate.

2 to 1 decision.

The 11th circuit does have a reputation as a somewhat more conservative court as well.

I am well aware it is not invalidating the entire bill. This is the only part of the bill I personally really have a problem with. 2-1 is still struck down

And there is jail time associated with it; if you do not have it, and they fine you, you do not pay the fine, you got to jail.

[KingHorse]

The 11th circuit does have a reputation as a somewhat more conservative court as well.

According the the news report (note: MSNBC isn't as bad as FOX, but they definitely let their Liberal flag fly):

The arguments unfolded in what's considered one of the nation's most conservative appeals courts. But the randomly selected panel represents different judicial perspectives. None of the three is considered either a stalwart conservative or an unfaltering liberal.

The panel is random. Out of a pool of mostly Conservative leaning judges, they got what appears to be three moderates.

[Wells]

And there is jail time associated with it; if you do not have it, and they fine you, you do not pay the fine, you got to jail.

The IRS deducts the the fine from any refunds you may be getting.

If you then still owe you're going to jail for tax evasion.

[xile]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44121956.../#.TkVxhoK-2Gc

Obviously expected to be appealed and heard, all the way to the supreme court. I personally agree that it is waaay overstepping the boundaries of our politics, and seems downright unconstitutional to me. Being threatened with fines/jail time because you cannot afford/do not want to have this health care system is not really what I think of when I think of freedom.

Only in America are people mad that they have to have health insurance but okay with having car insurance mandated. Last time i checked they were also implementing programs to help pay those who can't afford to pay for the health insurance.

[Jodah]

Only in America are people mad that they have to have health insurance but okay with having car insurance mandated. Last time i checked they were also implementing programs to help pay those who can't afford to pay for the health insurance.

Car insurance is mandated by the states, not the federal government. If health insurance was state mandated there would be a lot less argument about it. The problem is our Constitution does not give the power to mandate insurance of any kind to the Federal Government. Anything not stated in the Constitution is supposed to be the territory of the States and only the States.

[artemishunter1]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44121956.../#.TkVxhoK-2Gc

Obviously expected to be appealed and heard, all the way to the supreme court. I personally agree that it is waaay overstepping the boundaries of our politics, and seems downright unconstitutional to me. Being threatened with fines/jail time because you cannot afford/do not want to have this health care system is not really what I think of when I think of freedom.

And before someone brings up taxes as something I do not want to pay or be threatened with jail time, it is a completely different story. Although I would gladly pay higher taxes if the government would cut the pork


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...80879#44080879 (Not related to obamacare, but very important views on our political/financial system, please watch if you have the time, about five minutes long)

The mandate is necessary. without it only sick people will buy health insurance, or healthy people will wait to get sick to buy insurance. These actions would drive up prices of health insurance. Also, people who can't afford health insurance will receive government subsidies. it might seem its costing gov't money but actually it already cost gov't more money since emergency care provides free health care to patients without health insurance while they charge the gov't full bill for the care. if the laws work out of this health insurance care, gov't will make these people pay at least half the bill. thus, in the long it saves money. Whether its constuitional or not, America has long history of ignoring constitution when it comes to greater good.

[ptwonline]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44121956.../#.TkVxhoK-2Gc

Obviously expected to be appealed and heard, all the way to the supreme court. I personally agree that it is waaay overstepping the boundaries of our politics, and seems downright unconstitutional to me. Being threatened with fines/jail time because you cannot afford/do not want to have this health care system is not really what I think of when I think of freedom.

And before someone brings up taxes as something I do not want to pay or be threatened with jail time, it is a completely different story. Although I would gladly pay higher taxes if the government would cut the pork


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...80879#44080879 (Not related to obamacare, but very important views on our political/financial system, please watch if you have the time, about five minutes long)

There is actually relatively little gov't pork (depending on how you define pork, of course). Most of the spending is non-discretionary and the military. Most of the spending after that is with safety and regulations.

Cut out 100% of the pork. Great! Spending is now down from 100% to 99.9%. And you know what? Even some of the pork spending helps creates jobs. The spending that doesn't create jobs are subsidies to the wealthy industries.

[xile]

Car insurance is mandated by the states, not the federal government. If health insurance was state mandated there would be a lot less argument about it. The problem is our Constitution does not give the power to mandate insurance of any kind to the Federal Government. Anything not stated in the Constitution is supposed to be the territory of the States and only the States.

That's a legitimate argument, however the amount of people that realize the difference between the states and the federal government is not nearly as big as either of us would hope. Most people just get mad because they watch the media and they're being forced to buy something, i more than support state mandated healthcare, heck i'd actually love to see a whole reform of all of medicare and social security, but that won't ever happen.

[artemishunter1]

Car insurance is mandated by the states, not the federal government. If health insurance was state mandated there would be a lot less argument about it. The problem is our Constitution does not give the power to mandate insurance of any kind to the Federal Government. Anything not stated in the Constitution is supposed to be the territory of the States and only the States.

actually since we are not completely having gov't sponsored healthcare and the plan will set up interstate market for health insurance, the law comes under interstate commerce which the federal gov't has complete control according the constitution

[Maharishi]

Interesting point: With the downgrade of america's financial status, every single remaining AAA country has some form of socialized medicine, with at least a public option.

[Phishy714]

I live in Massachusetts.

Health insurance is mandated here, else you have to pay a hefty fine at the end of the year.

Because I love my fellow Americans, I do not wish this to be applied everywhere by a nastier entity.

[xile]

Interesting point: With the downgrade of america's financial status, every single remaining AAA country has some form of socialized medicine, with at least a public option.

The downgrade was more stupid politics than all seriousness. While i'm all for socialized medicine, your point is just some point, and doesn't really mean much.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 07:17 PM ----------

I live in Massachusetts.

Health insurance is mandated here, else you have to pay a hefty fine at the end of the year.

Because I love my fellow Americans, I do not wish this to be applied everywhere by a nastier entity.

Just wanna point out, this is what happens when people don't have health insurance. People without health insurance go to the emergency room, they get services, because they don't have health insurance there is no way they're really going to pay off that for the most part, so they just disappear, or whatever and the money never really gets paid. Because of that costs of overall healthcare increases because they have to cover for the people who don't pay. In turn because healthcare costs more, those who actually have health insurance now have to pay more to account for the higher health care rates.

[Maharishi]

The downgrade was more stupid politics than all seriousness. While i'm all for socialized medicine, your point is just some point, and doesn't really mean much.

I'm not sure how a country that has had a trade deficit since 79 deserves a AAA rating, but that's neither here nor there.

I was more speaking to the argument that's made that government is too big to be involved in healthcare, and will be inefficient, dragging down the economy. While the point doesn't imply causation, there is an obvious correlation between a more hands on approach to certain aspects of life by the government and a strong economy.

[Sunseeker]

I agree with this, it should be a public OPTION, not a mandate. Mandated insurance is stupid.

Insurance can be a great thing to have, but you shouldn't be forced to have it.

[Zorgen]

I live in Canada.. so I get free healthcare..

[Wells]

I agree with this, it should be a public OPTION, not a mandate. Mandated insurance is stupid.

Insurance can be a great thing to have, but you shouldn't be forced to have it.

I'm not crazy about the mandate as is. It was fine when there was a public option you could use rather than buying from private industry.

[MrWiggles]

Just wanna point out, this is what happens when people don't have health insurance. People without health insurance go to the emergency room, they get services, because they don't have health insurance there is no way they're really going to pay off that for the most part, so they just disappear, or whatever and the money never really gets paid. Because of that costs of overall healthcare increases because they have to cover for the people who don't pay. In turn because healthcare costs more, those who actually have health insurance now have to pay more to account for the higher health care rates.

^this, uninsured people cost everyone else.

[Sunseeker]

^this, uninsured people cost everyone else.

You mean the uninsured poor. Wealthy folks who can drop 10k and not think anything of it don't need insurance. Average folks who can't just vanish off the radar will pay off their debts in time. It's only the poor who can't afford insurance and don't have any money to pay for medicine who cause these problems.

And assholes...but there's really no accounting for assholes.