Forced health care mandate in Obamacare struck down in court

[Deleted]

I agree with this, it should be a public OPTION, not a mandate. Mandated insurance is stupid.

Insurance can be a great thing to have, but you shouldn't be forced to have it.

With Public Healthcare there is no middle-ground. Either everyone in the country has it, or noone.
Let's compare it to fire insurance for your house. In that case not everyone needs that, only the people who want it. Should your house burn down and you haven't got fire insurance, tough luck; your house is gone and I hope you have enough money but you need to take care of it.

But the deal with PH is a whole lot different. When you need medical threatment or else you'd die, we don't say tough luck. This is because we (most of us) are civilised and won't let other die when they could be treated. One problem however, that surgery you just had to save your life cost you 100.000 dollar. You don't have this--> means the goverment has to pay for it.
Let's say everyone does have PH insurance, your surgery still costs 100.000 dollar, but now this will be divided among EVERYONE. Sure, some people won't need health insurance, they will never get seriously ill. You will however not know this (else please tell me the numbers for the lottery).

I think there are 2 options:
1) Health Insurance is not an option but an obligation
2) It is an option, in the case someone doesn't have it but needs treatment you throw him on the streets, he doesn't have the money after all.

We don't want option 2.

I myself live in the Netherlands and we have a universal healthcare system here, which granted doesn't always works perfectly, but comparing it to what the USA has it's divine.

[Shomrim]

You mean the uninsured poor. Wealthy folks who can drop 10k and not think anything of it don't need insurance. Average folks who can't just vanish off the radar will pay off their debts in time. It's only the poor who can't afford insurance and don't have any money to pay for medicine who cause these problems.

And assholes...but there's really no accounting for assholes.

A hospital stay or a surgery can cost a lot more than 10k.

[damntree]

The downgrade was more stupid politics than all seriousness. While i'm all for socialized medicine, your point is just some point, and doesn't really mean much.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 07:17 PM ----------



Just wanna point out, this is what happens when people don't have health insurance. People without health insurance go to the emergency room, they get services, because they don't have health insurance there is no way they're really going to pay off that for the most part, so they just disappear, or whatever and the money never really gets paid. Because of that costs of overall healthcare increases because they have to cover for the people who don't pay. In turn because healthcare costs more, those who actually have health insurance now have to pay more to account for the higher health care rates.

I don't have insurance. I have seen a medical professional once in the last 14 years and I paid for it out of my pocket.

[Fuzzzie]

I live in Canada.. so I get free healthcare..

Yes. It's totally free... /facedesk

[Wells]

I don't have insurance. I have seen a medical professional once in the last 14 years and I paid for it out of my pocket.

Oh shit your personal anecdote has disproven everything I know!

[Sunseeker]

With Public Healthcare there is no middle-ground. Either everyone in the country has it, or noone.
Let's compare it to fire insurance for your house. In that case not everyone needs that, only the people who want it. Should your house burn down and you haven't got fire insurance, tough luck; your house is gone and I hope you have enough money but you need to take care of it.

Public healthcare and public insurance are two different things. Public healthcare guarantees everyone the right to go see a doctor and not worry about the costs that it will incur them. Public insurance gives people the ability to afford limited doctor visits without worrying about the costs. And you're right, there is no middle ground, but only when there is no alternatives. If there is both private and public healthcare, private and public insurance, then people should have the choice of which one they want to partake in. I can buy insurance from Joe or the Fed can take it out of my taxes. I can visit Joe's hospital and pay with my own money or I can visit the Fed's hospital and pay with Joe's insurance, my own money, or the government's insurance(provided it covers my problem).

If people don't want to have their health provided for or covered, that's their right, but on that token they should be ready to accept the costs for their actions. People who can't afford to chose, I agree the public option is great. People who can don't need it, and many don't want it.

But the deal with PH is a whole lot different. When you need medical threatment or else you'd die, we don't say tough luck. This is because we (most of us) are civilised and won't let other die when they could be treated. One problem however, that surgery you just had to save your life cost you 100.000 dollar. You don't have this--> means the goverment has to pay for it.

Again, for the poor the public option is a fine solution, but I do think it's everyone's right to choose if they want to live from whatever injury has them down, and if they do, then they chose to pay the associated costs. If they have insurance, either public or private, it should cover them. If they have the money to pay for it out of pocket, they should not be required to pay anyone else for private insurance.

Let's say everyone does have PH insurance, your surgery still costs 100.000 dollar, but now this will be divided among EVERYONE. Sure, some people won't need health insurance, they will never get seriously ill. You will however not know this (else please tell me the numbers for the lottery).

If I think I'm invincible and don't need insurance, if I'm incredibly wealthy can could pay for even the most extravagant of procedures out of pocket, I should not be required to pay for insurance. In many states, especially my own of California, I am required BY LAW, on threat of fines or jail time, to have car insurance, boat insurance, home insurance, property insurance, ect, ect... Mandatory health insurance was put there by corporations to extract more money from us, not by the government. If they wanted to cover us they'd just make health CARE part of our taxes.

I think there are 2 options:
1) Health Insurance is not an option but an obligation
2) It is an option, in the case someone doesn't have it but needs treatment you throw him on the streets, he doesn't have the money after all.

We don't want option 2.

You don't want option 2. That doesn't mean nobody wants it, or that it's inherently bad. it's not the nice solution, but it's perfectly valid. Why should the government spend $100,000 taxpayer dollars on someone who will never make that much money in their life? Why? because it's nice?

I myself live in the Netherlands and we have a universal healthcare system here, which granted doesn't always works perfectly, but comparing it to what the USA has it's divine.

Again, Universal HealthCARE is not the same as Universal Health INSURANCE. Americans are being required to purchase a product they may not want that may not even cover them! We still have no guarantee that we'll actually be able to afford the procedures we need.

A hospital stay or a surgery can cost a lot more than 10k.

And while that's part of the problem, that's not my point. Some people can afford that. Why should I force them to buy insurance when they can already afford the procedure they need/want?

[xile]

I don't have insurance. I have seen a medical professional once in the last 14 years and I paid for it out of my pocket.

Sweet your one person out of the at least reported 30 million people in this country who don't have insurance. I doubt you were also in a situation to where you needed hospital stay or anything of that sort unless you happen to have 10,000 in your pocket at least. A doctor visit is a pittance compared to the relative cost of hospital stays, emergency surgery, anything that's well actually life threatening.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 08:02 PM ----------

And while that's part of the problem, that's not my point. Some people can afford that. Why should I force them to buy insurance when they can already afford the procedure they need/want?

Just add an excerpt in the bill that states, if you make of "X" per year you aren't required to buy health insurance. So long as you can prove that you can pay for possible healthcare that's fine.

[Sunseeker]

Just add an excerpt in the bill that states, if you make of "X" per year you aren't required to buy health insurance.

Well sure, but why do I have to make more than X? Why can't I just say "No, don't cover me, if I get hurt, I'll pay for it."? In many places, making $100k a year could still mean you're barely paying the bills, while in other places, it could mean you're living like a king. Which number is the government going to use? I find it hard to believe they'd analyze every city or town to find that X. A half-hour drive can often make the difference in living like royalty and living like dirt on the same income.

[xile]

Well sure, but why do I have to make more than X? Why can't I just say "No, don't cover me, if I get hurt, I'll pay for it."? In many places, making $100k a year could still mean you're barely paying the bills, while in other places, it could mean you're living like a king. Which number is the government going to use? I find it hard to believe they'd analyze every city or town to find that X. A half-hour drive can often make the difference in living like royalty and living like dirt on the same income.

Idc what the value of X would be, point is there should be a system in it saying that you don't have to buy insurance, if you can prove that you can pay your healthcare bills when you incur them. Allowing just anyone to go into the healthcare system without health insurance will result in many of the poor essentially freeloading and driving up costs for everyone, because they won't ever pay (yes some poor will but most won't, they just don't have the funds that's why they're poor). I assume there would be some sort of system (assuming it was done well enough) that would take several figures into account to measure ones eligibility to not have health insurance.

[Deleted]

To Smrund;
You're right, they are not the same, I had forgotten.
The reason I mixed the two up, because here (NL) they are very alike imo.

The main reason you bring up is that if you have the money so you can pay for it you don't want to have the insurance.
If you have that much money on your hand, you sure as hell can pay the insurance (which would be alot cheaper than 1 major surgery for your whole life).

Second, maybe also an important point for many people is solidarity. Helping your fellow man/woman when in need.

Something like this will make it cheaper for everyone, it's not a coincidence that in it's working so well in those countries that are on top in the list of wealth.

[Sunseeker]

Idc what the value of X would be, point is there should be a system in it saying that you don't have to buy insurance, if you can prove that you can pay your healthcare bills when you incur them. Allowing just anyone to go into the healthcare system without health insurance will result in many of the poor essentially freeloading and driving up costs for everyone, because they won't ever pay (yes some poor will but most won't, they just don't have the funds that's why they're poor). I assume there would be some sort of system (assuming it was done well enough) that would take several figures into account to measure ones eligibility to not have health insurance.

No, there wasn't. The Bill basically said "buy insurance from the government or someone else, or get fined for it and risk jail time." Mandating insurance is like mandating that everyone own sneakers. Most people may wear shoes, but some people like boots, heels, sandals, some people like walking around barefoot and all the risk that includes. Why should I be mandated to buy X kind of shoe when I don't want it?

[Zeddicious]

The downgrade was more stupid politics than all seriousness. While i'm all for socialized medicine, your point is just some point, and doesn't really mean much.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 07:17 PM ----------



Just wanna point out, this is what happens when people don't have health insurance. People without health insurance go to the emergency room, they get services, because they don't have health insurance there is no way they're really going to pay off that for the most part, so they just disappear, or whatever and the money never really gets paid. Because of that costs of overall healthcare increases because they have to cover for the people who don't pay. In turn because healthcare costs more, those who actually have health insurance now have to pay more to account for the higher health care rates.

I would love to see the proof that this is in fact what happens. Because it isn't. Peoples insurance goes up due to inflation and just like car insurance, goes up over time the more you use it. Its simple logic, if a company knows your get a high amount of use in healthcare for low cost, its going to go up in price over time.

[Sunseeker]

To Smrund;
You're right, they are not the same, I had forgotten.
The reason I mixed the two up, because here (NL) they are very alike imo.

Confusing Care and coverage is very easy, "Obamacare" only forces coverage, not care when care is what we need.

The main reason you bring up is that if you have the money so you can pay for it you don't want to have the insurance.
If you have that much money on your hand, you sure as hell can pay the insurance (which would be alot cheaper than 1 major surgery for your whole life).

True, you can, but why should you?

Second, maybe also an important point for many people is solidarity. Helping your fellow man/woman when in need.

Helping others should be done out of charity, help them when I can, but not be required to help them.

Something like this will make it cheaper for everyone, it's not a coincidence that in it's working so well in those countries that are on top in the list of wealth.

Not necessarily, depending on who uses the system and who's paying into it, and the respective numbers of those people, it could easily cost a lot more.

What's working well for other nations is government health CARE. There's no insurance for it, you pay in your taxes some X value and you are covered. Cold? Covered. Broken leg? Covered. Stupid kid shot a nail in his leg? Covered. Insurance has exceptions, loopholes, ect...all designed to make you pay money for services that may never be rendered. I don't think I've seen a single insurance program that simply says "By paying us your money, if you go to a hospital, well will pay your bills." it's always "were you really hurt, was it really that bad, what if we only pay 25% of your bills?" For-profit insurance is never about health care, it's about money.

[xile]

No, there wasn't. The Bill basically said "buy insurance from the government or someone else, or get fined for it and risk jail time." Mandating insurance is like mandating that everyone own sneakers. Most people may wear shoes, but some people like boots, heels, sandals, some people like walking around barefoot and all the risk that includes. Why should I be mandated to buy X kind of shoe when I don't want it?

Already said it, and i said thats how the thing SHOULD be, i'm aware it isn't. Poor people using the healthcare and never repayign it, then makes that the healthcare providers (hospitals etc,) have to rise their cost relatively so that they can pay for those people who will freeload, that costs then gets transfered to those who actually pay for the healthcare.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 08:16 PM ----------

I would love to see the proof that this is in fact what happens. Because it isn't. Peoples insurance goes up due to inflation and just like car insurance, goes up over time the more you use it. Its simple logic, if a company knows your get a high amount of use in healthcare for low cost, its going to go up in price over time.

Insurance is a result of several factors and to think otherwise is dumb, sorry plain and simple. Rises in insurance are due to inflation, they're also due to rising healthcare costs. To think they aren't doesn't make sense, it's like you think the insurance wants to take a cut on their profit because healthcare is more expensive because some people freeload off of it, when in fact what they will do is raise their rates so they can maintain the same profit margins. How does that not makes sense. It's a combination of factors obviously. Point is, healthcare right now is more expensive for everyone because those who can't afford health insurance and have no intention of paying when they go to the emergency room or visit doctors, or hospitals or w.e. in turn cause those of us who do have health insurance to pay more.

[slimj091]

A hospital stay or a surgery can cost a lot more than 10k.

yeah.. no kidding. last time i had to go to the emergency room it cost me $1,600. for 15 stitches... that is $111 a stitch. well okay most of that cost was for sitting in a bed for two and a half hours (you know next to healthcare hospitals are top dollar hotels) waiting for them to get to me. and the ice pack probably cost around 75 or so. the only thing is that i was honest, and dumb enough to give them my real name, and pay it. the hospital also sent a collection agency after me for the last 10 dollars. i mean really?

[Pert]

Only in America are people mad that they have to have health insurance but okay with having car insurance mandated. Last time i checked they were also implementing programs to help pay those who can't afford to pay for the health insurance.

I don't see the parallel between car insurance and health insurance.

What's working well for other nations is government health CARE. There's no insurance for it, you pay in your taxes some X value and you are covered. Cold? Covered. Broken leg? Covered. Stupid kid shot a nail in his leg? Covered.

Yeah, covered... if you're interested in a long wait and rationed care.

[slimj091]

Well sure, but why do I have to make more than X? Why can't I just say "No, don't cover me, if I get hurt, I'll pay for it."? In many places, making $100k a year could still mean you're barely paying the bills, while in other places, it could mean you're living like a king. Which number is the government going to use? I find it hard to believe they'd analyze every city or town to find that X. A half-hour drive can often make the difference in living like royalty and living like dirt on the same income.

i'm sorry, but you are blowing that way out of proportion. even living in New York, Los Angeles, or Tokyo.. some of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. with 100k a year you would not be living like dirt. you wouldn't be living like royalty either, but you would definitely be middle class. i have never heard of anyone anywhere making 100k a year being considered dirt poor.

[xile]

I don't see the parallel between car insurance and health insurance.



Yeah, covered... if you're interested in a long wait and rationed care.

Why would you have much longer of a wait than now? There's no problem offering both a public and private option, there would in fact be more chances at healthcare now. As for rationed care, that's an obnoxious myth, alot of fox media tried to say that people would get euthanized/ and that the younger would get organs.. to bad that's not how it works at all. Even today people get organs based upon need not upon how much money you pay (unless you can you know corrupt someoen to put your name higher on the list).

[Dacien]

I live in Canada.. so I get free healthcare..

Yeah, I think all the money you save on National Defense frees up funds to be spent elsewhere. Not to worry though! If you get attacked, we're here to save you.

[slimj091]

I don't see the parallel between car insurance and health insurance. Yeah, covered... if you're interested in a long wait and rationed care.

have you been to an emergency room lately? it's been a long wait and rationed care unless you are two seconds from death for a long time.

---------- Post added 2011-08-12 at 08:40 PM ----------

Yeah, I think all the money you save on National Defense frees up funds to be spent elsewhere. Not to worry though! If you get attacked, we're here to save you.

who would want to attack canada? they don't go around the world telling other people to live a certain way or they will starve, bomb, shoot them.. not necessarily in that order.