Retribution - haste or crit?

[Marsc92]

I really can't tell if you're serious or not. You don't even know everything that haste affects, so how do you expect anyone that knows what haste affects, to take you seriously? Your "math" is horrible, to be honest.

Okay so it also affects Censure. But the point is, unless you can get your CS cooldown to exactly 3s then you should be using 2 fillers. And therefore the aspect of haste that reduces the cooldown is irrelevant since it contributes nothing to your dps.
And how is my math horrible? Because you say so? Show me math proving otherwise.

[Dristereau]

Avoid haste like its the plague... Like Arms Warriors its a stat that is almost useless and practically a dps loss if stacked

[Marsc92]

Avoid haste like its the plague... Like Arms Warriors its a stat that is almost useless and practically a dps loss if stacked

Pretty much this^

[Malleus]

Lol, i am by no means saying stack crit over mastery, i am saying choose crit over haste so you have more of a chance to proc a stack.

Yes, and I'm saying that there's no such thing as a choice between crit and haste because crit, haste and mastery are not the only stats on gear. If we have a piece of haste/mastery gear we aren't restricted into reforging for crit; instead we can reforge hit into expertise or mastery then reforge our haste into hit, effectively turning our haste into mastery. Only on crit/haste pieces are we forced to choose, but there's only three slots where we have to use crit/haste at ilvl 391.

[Reith]

Okay so it also affects Censure. But the point is, unless you can get your CS cooldown to exactly 3s then you should be using 2 fillers. And therefore the aspect of haste that reduces the cooldown is irrelevant since it contributes nothing to your dps.
And how is my math horrible? Because you say so? Show me math proving otherwise.

Burden of proof is on you. I'm the skeptic. You're making an affirmative claim, so prove your claim. If you can't do that, then I don't have to do anything. You are dismissed out of hand without evidence.

[Kristor]

Yes, and I'm saying that there's no such thing as a choice between crit and haste because crit, haste and mastery are not the only stats on gear. If we have a piece of haste/mastery gear we aren't restricted into reforging for crit; instead we can reforge hit into expertise or mastery then reforge our haste into hit, effectively turning our haste into mastery. Only on crit/haste pieces are we forced to choose, but there's only three slots where we have to use crit/haste at ilvl 391.

Yes and i listed one of them in an earlier post, i am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post? who are you talking to? me?
I even said that once you are hit and expertise capped and the item has crit/haste that you reforge the higher amount of either stat IE 228 crit /208 haste you pick the 228 crit no matter what because mastery is such a bigger dps gain.

and i stated multiple times that the amount of haste or crit that you get is insignificant

[Marsc92]

He laid out the math. It went over your head. You're pretending to be retarded at this point. It's working. We think you're retarded.

Exactly this^

I proved it using math twice. And undeniable math. Math you can't dispute if you stick to fact.

[Nillo]

Exactly this^

I proved it using math twice. And undeniable math. Math you can't dispute if you stick to fact.

Math? You didn't do any math:
You're forgetting about half of the abilities that scale with haste.
You're missing the point that it takes about 50% more crit rating for 1% than haste rating.
Afaik exorcism still only crits for 150% damage.
All you said was "it affects all damage" which is usually the dumbest argument I see when it comes to comparing 2 stats... or do I need to remind you, that mastery is a Ret's best secondary stat even though it only affects uhmmm 2 attacks.

[Badpaladin]

He laid out the math. It went over your head. You're pretending to be retarded at this point. It's working. We think you're retarded.

What math? I'm well-versed in differential equations and linear algebra, so lay it on me man. Post math or don't act like you know everything.

[shadowboxer123]

I feel that I should post this one more time. This is coming from Exemplar, from the Elitist Jerks forums, where they try to figure out how to get the most DPS possible out of a spec.

My personal opinion is: make your own choice and follow it. Mastery remains our best stat. After that, whether you want to gear Haste > Crit, Crit > Haste, or Crit = Haste is up to you to individually decide. Within the range that the RNG provides it's unlikely that either will prove definitively superior.

In other words they use spreadsheets and mathematical formulas to model Ret DPS, much more complicated than anything I have yet to see in this particular thread. Unless you have some hard math, or a spreadsheet, or something else to actually PROVE that haste>crit or crit>haste, something other than napkin math and a gut feeling that a certain stat is hands down the best, then I am going to take the word of Exemplar who has spent quite a bit of time modeling Ret dps.

And that is: it is difficult to show that haste>crit or crit>haste, so pick the stat that fits your play style.

[Jonuts]

Notsureifserious.jpg

Pretty sure Op is serious. The folks that do all the number crunching are saying "Wow, I undervalued the hell out of haste. Whoops". My understanding of the situation is that you want 1.2:1 Mastery to haste Ratio, with crit being whatever you got left over. I like going with Mastery-->Haste-->Crit myself, just because It makes gameplay a bit smoother. Much like how I'm waiting until I got 4p T12 before replacing my 4p T11. Might not be optimal, but it makes playing the class suck a whole lot less.

str>hit cap> exp cap> mastery> crit ................................................>haste

Blatent misinformation. Even before removing certain bugs that made Haste look like garbage, it wasn't far under mastery/crit. If you wanted that to reflect reality, pre-bugfix and pre-redone-all-the-bloody-math, it would look more like Str....>Hit/Expertise cap...> Mastery>crit.>haste. This, of course, assumes full raid buffs. Without that, swap mastery and crit. Go slap yourself for being full of shit please. Also, do keep in mind that those were always GUIDELINES, and specific values changed depending on your gearing. After all, the more haste/crit/mastery you have, the more that haste/crit/mastery are worth (Assuming you don't cap them). So really, your entire statement here is lying by omission. The only question is, are you intentionally trying to mislead people, or just a fool? Either way, at this point, nobody is absolutely certain. Exemplar and the simcraft guy can't figure out why their numbers don't agree, and who is wrong.

Spreadsheets take NO consideration of real-world application. I don't need a spreadsheet to rank on Baleroc, neither should you. A calculator and stat weights itemize your gear. From there everything else is semantics, such as 'censure ticks'. Auto-attack isn't an ability. Crit > Haste. Deal with it.

Huh. Damn, pure math is wrong because it's math. What you say is right because it's what you say. Auto-attack and censure contribute 0% of our DPS as well, and auto-attacks no longer proc AoW. Thats all I got out of your statement. You don't seem to back up Crit>Haste with anything though, other than an (incorrect) implication that haste has no effect. Sanctity of Battle would like a word with you, along with most our fillers having lowered GCD's as well. Also, even if Censure ticks and Auto-Attacks don't count as "abilities", they definitely count as damage. More haste = More Damage from both those sources, along with seal of truth damage for having 5 stacks, and seal of command bonus damage.

Frankly, your argument brings no weight to say that crit is a DPS increase compared to Haste. You just SAY it is. Why should I take you seriously, when Exemplar has math backing up his assertions?

Prove what? that once you have the math you don't need any other stupid bullshit people like to call thoerycrafting.

Wow. Slap yourself son. Once you have the math, you have to redo the math EVERY FRICKING TIME you get a piece. Because the results change. because the numbers involved in the calculations changed. The stat weights you know and love? They're a FRIGGIN SNAPSHOT of stat weights in a specific setup. The math is WORTHLESS on it's own for actually min-maxing.

Sorry but if you take haste over crit because of personal preferences, it suits your playstyle or you like disputing solid math because it makes you feel smart, quite blatantly, you're pretty much an idiot.

Or mayhaps, your "solid" math was built on a bunch of false assumptions and you never calculated it out. Lets not forget that alot of abilities only crit for +50% damage. How about sitting down and showing all the math? You're making assertions that don't agree with what the people who DO sit down and do the math. As quoted from EJ in this thread. Exemplar says there is basically no discernable difference in output between prioritizing haste and crit. As such, I throw my lot in with Haste because it makes the play smoother and less annoying. In the end, it's my choice based on personal preference, because the math says "You can go either way and get a statistically insignificant difference".

Also, you seem to overlook the fact that the reduced GCD for Judgement/Hammer/HoW/Exo/Inq and any other utility you might need (LoH the tank maybe...?) means less clipping of CS when everything isn't perfectly lined up. CS, wait a heartbeat, Judge as it comes off CD, clip .1 seconds of CS instead of .3 seconds. Maybe it adds up. Maybe it doesn't.

stacking haste over mastery and crit give to me better dps than mastery - crit - haste reforge. And i'm speaking about "real" fights.

The problem is, RNG provides such a massive boost to our DPS, or tanks it so much, that anecdotal evidence such as this is literally worthless. The RNG factor is just too great for any reasonable sample size to mean anything.

But the point is, unless you can get your CS cooldown to exactly 3s then you should be using 2 fillers.

Where do you people come from? You *DO* realize that you can't put 2 fillers between every CS, assuming you're using CS as often as you can, right? Your fillers have long cooldowns, leaving large swaths of time where you have no fillers. So haste isn't ZOMG THE BEST STAT POSSIBLE! during moments that are, literally, worst case scenarios for it. It's like saying mastery is worthless because it doesn't affect any ability you can use while disarmed or out of melee range.

And how is my math horrible? Because you say so? Show me math proving otherwise.

Ooh! Ooh! I can answer this one! Because it's not math! Because it's based on faulty assumptions! Because you followed a logic train in a vacuum, ignored every variable (Not controlled, ignored!) except the one you wanted to focus on, and stated it as ultimate truth with nothing solid to back it up!

He laid out the math. It went over your head. You're pretending to be retarded at this point.

Not once did I see an equation. Not once. I saw claims. Nothing more, nothing less.

All you said was "it affects all damage" which is usually the dumbest argument I see when it comes to comparing 2 stats... or do I need to remind you, that mastery is a Ret's best secondary stat even though it only affects uhmmm 2 attacks.

Lol! I totally overlooked that idiocy on his part too! Ah, I love this Peer Review at it's finest

[Kristor]

Wow. Slap yourself son. Once you have the math, you have to redo the math EVERY FRICKING TIME you get a piece. Because the results change. because the numbers involved in the calculations changed. The stat weights you know and love? They're a FRIGGIN SNAPSHOT of stat weights in a specific setup. The math is WORTHLESS on it's own for actually min-maxing.

I'm sorry i do this often, i talk as if people know where i am coming from and i make assumptions that you will see what i am getting at, i know you need to do it "EVERY FRICKING TIME" it was implied but how i said it was to make a bold statement and thus you probably made the assumption i don't know what i am talking about, meanwhile while i enjoy min maxing, this topic has gone way out of hand, really all this for which secondary stat to stack if you can't get mastery or are hit / exp capped.

Everyone needs to calm their farms.

---------- Post added 2011-08-14 at 02:44 AM ----------

Or mayhaps, your "solid" math was built on a bunch of false assumptions and you never calculated it out. Lets not forget that alot of abilities only crit for +50% damage. How about sitting down and showing all the math? You're making assertions that don't agree with what the people who DO sit down and do the math. As quoted from EJ in this thread. Exemplar says there is basically no discernable difference in output between prioritizing haste and crit. As such, I throw my lot in with Haste because it makes the play smoother and less annoying. In the end, it's my choice based on personal preference, because the math says "You can go either way and get a statistically insignificant difference".

I have said this about 4 times already as well as other people, seriously can someone lock this thread.

[Requital]

And we already have a winner! *pins badge*

On-topic: Requital, I definitely agree with you. It's not something we can really test out and say, "this." Hence I'm wondering what's -your- personal preference.

Honestly I feel crit and haste are both so close together that as long as you keep them relatively even you are fine. There is no winner for those stats my DPS does not fluctuate enough to know. I just barely got a weapon upgrade so now it's going to be even harder to tell. However this thread does show one thing for sure.

There are a lot of idiots that play Ret

[Ulmita]

That rng factor who everyone is talking about, is a "probability". It is RNG on boss fights because we simply, don't do enough damage to get the "RNG" factor smoothed out. Have you guys ever tried to sit down on a dummy for 150-200M worth of damage? Well if you do , you will notice, that your end results in each try will be much much closer in quantity in every time.

Does this really affect anything in raiding? I don't think so since we will never do that much damage and thus we will be still ruled by the "RNG". However, you will absolutely notice the difference in your reforging methods.

As for the Exemplar's sheet, what i don't get, since RNG is such a definitive factor, why don't we try to calculate the weights firstly by removing the divine proc's and art of wars procs from the equation, calculate them, then add them back and adjust.

On subject now, i've found through just raw dummy love sessions that haste is increasing my dps but up to a specific rating. Then, for me at least, with the current testing gear sets i use, crit produces more dps. In other words, with mastery being always the first reforge target, haste up to a specific % and then crit all the way.
When i reforge mastery first and then all out crit or haste i always get worse results by keeping some haste and then all out crit. To be honest the results are always so consistent that i tend to believe there is a soft and hard cap for haste like many other specs with the hard being the almost 4000 rating we need for cs to get to 3 secs.

[t3hj0j0]

As for the Exemplar's sheet, what i don't get, since RNG is such a definitive factor, why don't we try to calculate the weights firstly by removing the divine proc's and art of wars procs from the equation, calculate them, then add them back and adjust.

Because without AoW and DP, crit is far far far better. With AoW and DP, haste catches up quite rapidly. You have to remember, when you add crit and haste into the equation, it no longer becomes an easly solvable equation. It is a range of dps that you can achieve. You can't just get the stat weights without procs and such, then add the procs in, that TOTALLY changes things because... what if the proc also crits? What if your crit is parried. What if boss X modifies stat Y?

As for dummy love sessions: I have mixed feelings on those because of the fact that they are so far removed from actual boss fights. Of course it gets you the most accurate stat weights. But, you results will always be close because of the ever growing number of procs. Lets say over 1 minute you do 100 dps. You have a 1% chance to crit, and if you do crit, 100 dps is added. Now add in haste: you have 1 haste which adds 2 dps per second. If you could only have crit or haste, you would find that crit would occasionally hit higher (multiple procs) but haste would be more consistent. But, in a hour long sim, they would be rather close since multiple crits would make up for its inconstancy. Now that isn't to complex, and you can apply that 60 minute dummy data to a 6 minute boss fight. BUT, once you add in procs that are affected by haste, abilities hitting harder by crits, and boss mechanics changing stats, you discover your dummy data is quite unreliable. Now, Spreadsheets and sims are different as they are rather consistent with handing out "procs", as well as being able to model many different fight types, but even those fail in certain cases. But, even with all that factored in, RNG is RNG is RNG (is the servers nanotime put through a complex equation and then put into perspective) and even with large sessions, dps can vary by insane amounts. It IS rare though, so you are right that large damage sessions don't show massive variance. The problem is, bosses don't have massive health, and RNG must be taken into account in a different format for short fights than for that hard mode dummy boss.

[Ulmita]

I totally see and agree on what you said. Pulling damage on a dummy will definitely won't tell you the actual dps you will pull on a boss fight for the exact reasons you stated. However, what it will do for you, is to give you a feint image of how well your reforging strategy is working for you and that's for me at least, the most important thing since its the best thing i can personally do. (unless you got a reforge strategy for each and every different fight out there, in which case i salute you)

For me at least, the spreadsheets and the sim are there to point me to how about to reforge. For sure i will try the way they point, however i will test it against some other combinations .

At the end of the day, since there's that mist of uncertainty that covers the weight stat of ret's, the best thing that someone can do (in my humble opinion), is to find out which reforging combination works the best for his/her gear set, and then go raiding and pray to the RNG lords for a big part of the chance of divine purpose + art of war to proc while in a boss fight. I've spend a considerable amount of time testing various reforging combinations of crit vs haste through some good old dummy smacking (which may or not be valid enough) and just thought to share my thoughts on the subject with the rest of you guys.

[Jonuts]

Everyone needs to calm their farms.

I'd love too. But there is so much stupidity involved. Alas, my poor patience. It got terminally ill and died years ago

*edit*

Anyways, the simple fact of the matter is, as long as you're wearing plate DPS gear, no matter of (sensible!) reforging (Except possibly to get AoK to proc mastery) will have a tangible and notable effect on your overall DPS that doesn't fall into your normal DPS range due to so much of our DPS being based on procs. Unless you really go out of your way to screw up like reforging spirit or dodge, you're not gonna see a serious and notable difference. Really is a damn shame that min-maxing has a less notable affect than the difference of 3-4 procs.

[Marsc92]

Well world top rets wouldn't stack stats like that if it was wrong. Honestly, yes, Exo still crits for 150% damage only. But haste doesn't scale with all too much else.
Stack what you want. I will guarantee you that crit will return high dps than haste. If you prove otherwise you can have my account.

[Deleted]

I've been considering going for Mastery > Haste > Crit myself, the biggest reason being that with Ret already being so high on RNG, I'd rather NOT have ANOTHER high-RNG factor in it. Atleast Haste is a reliable stat. Though I doubt I'm going back to mainspec Ret anytime soon, being Prot is so much less stressful.

[Requital]

Well world top rets wouldn't stack stats like that if it was wrong. Honestly, yes, Exo still crits for 150% damage only. But haste doesn't scale with all too much else.
Stack what you want. I will guarantee you that crit will return high dps than haste. If you prove otherwise you can have my account.

World top Rets also get things that not everyone does tricks etc so to assume just because they are using certain stats doesn't mean it will work the same way for you. It's always been that way the top 10 Rets generally get preferential treatment in their raids. They don't have to do certain things hell I've even seen Rets that get DI so using that basis is as far off as you can get.