The problem with different Raid sizes

[Deleted]

I have concluded what (In my opinion) constitutes perhaps the biggest difference between Vanilla/BC and LK/Cata when it comes to the 'epicness' of the first and the 'non-epicness' of the latter.

When I started playing in Classic, and I think when most players start playing, they understand the concept of raiding as a fight between players and baddies. There is ONE set of baddies that you must kill each time. When you do so, you win/you gain loot/you feel satisfied/you have achieved something/etc. This was the model of Vanilla/BC.

The model changed however with LK/Cata. Now, there are MORE THAN ONE sets of the same baddies. In some cases, there are as many as 4 different sets of baddies: e.g. 25-man ToC, 10-man Toc, 25-man ToGC, 10-man ToGC. This reduces the epicness - no longer can you feel satisfied/achieved/etc by killing one set. No longer can you say (to others, as well as to your self) 'I have killed C'Thun'.

Now, this new model in LK retained some of the features of the previous system. "The boss" was predominantly the 25-man version of the boss. It was harder, it dropped better loot, etc. You could still, to a certain extent, say "I have killed Malygos", if you did so in 25-man.

With Cata, things got worse. The old model was scrapped altogether. Now, 10mans and 25mans are 'equal'. There is no longer the idea of 'killing the boss'. Yes, Paragon killed Ragnaros HC 25man, but MOST of the people have ALSO killed Ragnaros. What? It's not 25man hc? So what? They have still killed the SAME guy, with the SAME name/skin and many of the same abilities, in the same raid instance. In older times, the majority of the player base would not EVEN SEE a particular boss - not to mention, kill him.

Long Story Short: So, my view is that in order to regain the epicness of the game, there must only be one version of each boss. As in real life, where there is only one unique version of every thing. No 25/10 mans, no normal/heroics. There can still be some hard-mode achievements to discriminate between the exceptionally good and the good. But the basic aim of the game should be 'to kill the boss'.

[Klahkeme]

In older times, the majority of the player base would not EVEN SEE a particular boss - not to mention, kill him.

You mentioned here the real reason people feel raids are no longer "epic." People don't feel accomplishment if more than 5-10% of the playerbase was able to do the same thing, even if the rest of the players couldn't do it for month or two. Has nothing to do really with the different sizes of the raid. If Ragnaros 10/25 was so hard that it took another tier or two before a significant number of people could kill him, they'd call both versions of the raid "Epic"

[pdude]

I'm not following your logic on how Cata made it worse. You want there to be one set of bosses, and since the bosses are the same difficulty for 10m and 25m, then why is it less "epic" if someone does it on 10 man? It's not like how 10m was easy mode in WotLK. The only major difference between 10 and 25 is an organizational one.

[Deleted]

I'm not following your logic on how Cata made it worse. You want there to be one set of bosses, and since the bosses are the same difficulty for 10m and 25m, then why is it less "epic" if someone does it on 10 man? It's not like how 10m was easy mode in WotLK. The only major difference between 10 and 25 is an organizational one.

WotLK made the radical change.
But Cata took it a step further.

As I said, in Wotlk there was still the idea of 'the boss' - the 25man version of it. The 10man version was always much easier and gave much worse loot (with 1-2 near-BiS items).
In Cata, there is no such thing as "the boss" anymore - 10m and 25m are equal in terms of loot and Blizzard is also trying to make them equal in terms of difficulty.

[timoseewho]

The whole 10/25's dropping same loot really did it.

[pdude]

WotLK made the radical change.
But Cata took it a step further.

As I said, in Wotlk there was still the idea of 'the boss' - the 25man version of it. The 10man version was always much easier and gave much worse loot (with 1-2 near-BiS items).
In Cata, there is no such thing as "the boss" anymore - 10m and 25m are equal in terms of loot and Blizzard is also trying to make them equal in terms of difficulty.

At least to me, I would consider it "the boss" if they're the same difficulty.
If someone asks you if you did Shannox you can say yes without having to say "but only the 10 man version".

[Ceria]

So basically you're complaining that they made raids accessible.

Righteo.

[Nitros14]

At least to me, I would consider it "the boss" if they're the same difficulty.
If someone asks you if you did Shannox you can say yes without having to say "but only the 10 man version".

It's not like that though. The 10-man raiders think they did the more difficult version that is therefore "the boss". The 25-man raiders think they did the more difficult version that is therefore "the boss".