Holy Paladin Haste "Caps"

[s8mpurye]

Haste doesnt become a "wasted stat" after 1859, haste's value is still higher than that of all the other stats on most fights, even after the extra tick of HR.

[Phosey]

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's a wasted stat. There is no right/wrong for healers, this isn't where you can say "oh, you achieved hit cap, every other hit point is wasted, or you hit expertise cap, all other points in expertise are wasted". It depends on your job, mastery is absolutely garbage for raid healing, unless there is constant amounts of damage being taken all the time (Beth'tilac rain comes to mind). Yes, you still get benefit from haste, but unless you get a substantial amount of haste, can you really even count it? Unless you start taking 0.1sec off every cast, it's mostly insignificant. That is why I prefer Mastery. Any haste is good haste for the amount you get it, sure. Linear increases are there, but how significant is that increase to, lets say, ~10% extra healing done as a shield. I dumped around 100 haste and 800 spirit for my 14.82 mastery, so I have the best of both worlds. I have also raided heroic modes at 2000+ haste, and between it all, I never really saw any significant increases in healing done with roughly 150 extra haste. However, I find immense uses with the mastery/haste spec in encounters such as Alysrazor, Shannox, Majordomo, Ragnaros, Baleroc, and some usages on Beth'tilac. I will post logs tonight after raid, as long as I remember.

[Deleted]

actually, I didn't want to start a debate about whether mastery or haste is better, I was more focused on should I balance my stats more after reaching a certain amount of haste with my current set of gear and prefer other stats because I didn't want to "waste" stats. In the OP I had some wrong thoughts about haste, not thinking that it's actually always a cast time increase and be it really, really small. I think haste adds up a lot over the course of a long fight as Tatsu stated therefore it's always a very good stat for us no matter how much haste you have.

Please don't start the haste vs. mastery debate since it wasn't this posts intention.

[Tatsu]

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's a wasted stat. There is no right/wrong for healers, this isn't where you can say "oh, you achieved hit cap, every other hit point is wasted, or you hit expertise cap, all other points in expertise are wasted". It depends on your job, mastery is absolutely garbage for raid healing, unless there is constant amounts of damage being taken all the time (Beth'tilac rain comes to mind). Yes, you still get benefit from haste, but unless you get a substantial amount of haste, can you really even count it? Unless you start taking 0.1sec off every cast, it's mostly insignificant. That is why I prefer Mastery. Any haste is good haste for the amount you get it, sure. Linear increases are there, but how significant is that increase to, lets say, ~10% extra healing done as a shield. I dumped around 100 haste and 800 spirit for my 14.82 mastery, so I have the best of both worlds. I have also raided heroic modes at 2000+ haste, and between it all, I never really saw any significant increases in healing done with roughly 150 extra haste. However, I find immense uses with the mastery/haste spec in encounters such as Alysrazor, Shannox, Majordomo, Ragnaros, Baleroc, and some usages on Beth'tilac. I will post logs tonight after raid, as long as I remember.

150 of any stat your not going to see a significant improvement. The amount is too tiny. But that doesn't mean that 150 haste is bad. 150 haste is still better than 150 mastery and 150 crit. 1900 haste is just as good as 1860 haste. Haste is a linear improvement. This means that it constantly good. There is no point where haste is suddenly wasted. You are still getting the same benefit from it. As an overall healing stat haste is better than crit or mastery. I agree there is no right or wrong for a healer, but there is a way that is better than another. This is a mathematical certainty.

Now I would be willing to talk about fights where mastery is a better stat than haste if you have the healing makeup. If you want to be an all around decent healer, continue to get haste.

[Deleted]

Haste doesnt become a "wasted stat" after 1859, haste's value is still higher than that of all the other stats on most fights, even after the extra tick of HR.

No haste doesnt come a wasted stat however once you hit that goal of 1860 or 2097, haste, crit and mastery all becomes equally good.

[Phosey]

If you want to be an all around decent healer, continue to get haste.

Healing isn't DPS. I do absolutely fine both on meters and my targets, I have never had a tank die on me, nor have I ever suffered in the healing department because my haste isn't at 2000 rating. It's just an experiment and it's producing positive results on 6/7 heroic encounters in the Firelands.

No haste doesnt come a wasted stat however once you hit that goal of 1860 or 2097, haste, crit and mastery all becomes equally good.

This, although I did make a mistake about calling it a "wasted stat", bad word play, my bad. After you hit the highest plateau you can, it becomes a choice of whichever stat suits your style the most.

[Cyriaa]

Mastery stacking isn't a very viable stat priority in any setting. My guild has two holy paladins that stack mastery while I have stuck to the traditional Haste > Crit > Mastery build. The amount of healing done by illuminated healing is about the same between both styles of play with the mastery build healing roughly 200k more than me (which is NOT very much, especially when we're talking about 10 minute fights). They lack haste and mana regen, they're not able to cast divine light very much and have to stick to holy light spamming otherwise they run oom very fast. They're usually last or close to the bottom on the meters (and by meters I mean parses).

My recommendation to the OP is to continue stacking haste, reforge out of mastery whenver possible.
If you're like me you probably already have a butt load of crit for some odd reason, if you don't have a lot reforge out of mastery into crit if you already have haste on that piece of gear.

If you're curious about our gear I'm the least geared out of the three holy paladins.

Here's a few parses from this weeks raid to support my argument:

Heroic Shannox
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-g2.../?s=765&e=1040

Baleroc
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9b...?s=3551&e=3823

[Fedexkilla]

Not to get offtopic too much but how does the 5% spell haste buff Shadow priests figure into the cast time of my spells?

I have around 1878 haste and with judge and the buff sit somewhere around 25% spell haste but my Divine Lights are still above 2 secs cast time.

[Tatsu]

No haste doesnt come a wasted stat however once you hit that goal of 1860 or 2097, haste, crit and mastery all becomes equally good.

Can you give me a mathematical reason for this?

[Deleted]

Heroic Shannox
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-g2.../?s=765&e=1040

Baleroc
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9b...?s=3551&e=3823

You run with too many healers and can you honestly say that the healer being lower isnt because of lower skills?

I just wanted to point out too that this subject have been discussed for about 5 full pages on EJ forums and the conclusion was that haste is best untill 1860 (2097 with shard of woe) and after that the stats you choose really doesnt matter, they all have their advantages and drawbacks.

Haste = more healing on everything, faster oom.
Crit = more unreliable healing on everything no change in mana.
Mastery = way more tank healing than haste and no change in mana but healing on the raid will be lower than stacking haste and/or crit.

---------- Post added 2011-08-15 at 04:52 PM ----------

Can you give me a mathematical reason for this?

There is no mathematical conclusion to this because the numbers are so different and all give different advantages, personally I would keep stacking haste unless I run into mana problems because it is the most reliable healing stat.

[Phosey]

Your logs seem strange to me, Cyriaa, my data is nowhere near yours. Your other Holy Paladin isn't making any use of Beacon of Light?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/5hkhj...?s=4626&e=5011 is my data on Heroic Shannox

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hxzq6...?s=1933&e=2529 is my data on Alysrazor Normal

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hxzq6...=12801&e=13437 is my data on Ragnaros Normal

I'm finished talking about Mastery > Haste. Cheers guys, have a good one!

[s8mpurye]

There is infact a right/wrong for healers. If a healer was gemming full stam that would surely be wrong. If a hpally was spamming FoL on a tank with beacon on himself and then complaining that he runs oom during low damage phases of a fight, would you not tell him he's doing it wrong? I don't see why stat prioritization cant fall under the same right/wrong.

Uhm actually mastery is king on a few of the fights you are claiming haste is good, and you have it backwards. Do you really think the extra maybe 500 absorb your getting on LoD is better than the extra .05-.1 or so second you would shave off your DL/HL/GCD with an extra 300haste? Not to mention less haste = less HP = less AoE healing with LoD during the rain. Mastery is actually really bad for sustained and burst aoe. It's just bad for aoe in general.

Haste has a lot more "Plateaus" than your giving it credit for. It has a plateau for while all these scenario's: Divine Favor, Lust, Shard of Woe, DF+lust, DF+Shard, Lust+Shard, DF+Lust+Shard. At least 2 of these being between 2k and 2200 haste.

Mastery is good on Shannox, Domo and Rag If you can be assigned to single tank healing. I'm pretty sure even crit would trump mastery if your using it to AoE heal as your HR/LoD can crit.

Mastery is lolzy at best on baleroc as the tank takes such an absurd amount of damage and our shield is limited to roughly 50k, most guilds have better single target healers designated to tank healing while pallies activate spark and continue to heal torment anyways, so haste wins.

On Rhyolith everyone takes damage infrequently enough(if your drivers are good) that either the mastery is wasted or you waste the LoD putting a shield up and lose the actual heal. The only time the damage is coming in predictable frequent patterns is during superheated and this is when mastery shines as the phase is short lived your under lust and you need as many HR heals as possible.

Shannox - Damage is distributed between just tanks and who ever rageface is on, mastery is more than acceptable here.

Domo - With the 1717171 alternating stacks most guilds use for this only the tank is taking damage and there is never an AoE healing phase. With the bonus modifier to healing this is one of the best times to be using non spirit non haste gear.

Extremely long reply to a post that didnt really need one, but still your completely under selling haste.

[Deleted]

thx for the opinion but you might got me wrong here. I'm not trying to say I want to aim for a certain amount of haste and from this point on I'll stack mastery. I rather was looking for the haste breakpoints for my current set of gear. So lets say I currently have 1400 haste rating with 1.8 sec cast time on HL and DL but with 1300 I'd still have 1.8 sec cast time. Wouldn't it be better to drop the 100 haste and reforge to mastery?

Every single point of haste reduces your cast time. Thing is, addons like Quartz only show casts by tenths of a second. Mouseover the tooltip without the new baby-level tooltips enabled and you should be able to see the exact cast time with thousandths of a second.

[Deleted]

Extremely long reply to a post that didnt really need one, but still your completely under selling haste.

I dont agree, the numbers are so close in terms of healing once you get to the 1860 (2097 with SoW) and as I said before there are so many different advantages to each stat that it is impossible to really say which one is better.

Before 4.2 I would say stack haste or gtfo, now Im telling people to get as much as they feel like as long as they get to that 1860 haste first. Haste is still the most reliable source of healing which is why I still stack it but there really is no definite answer to haste vs crit vs mastery because they all shine at each their thing.

[Phosey]

snipe

Explanations:

I'm assuming the player in question knows how to play his or her class to atleast the level of Level 80 Holy Light spamming in ICC.

What are you talking about for the second comment? Please elaborate. The extra 500 is per heal. I start out every encounter with a full 48k shield on the tank. Sometiems I start out with it on two tanks, depending on the time before pull.

Yes, it has a lot of plateaus, with cooldowns. I'm talking about normal raid buffed haste threshold.

I don't know of any reason why a holy paladin wouldn't be assigned to tank healing, with popping HR and 3HoPow LoDs during AoE phases with the beacon on the main tank. Well, besides for having too many tank healers and just assigning a holy paladin to raid healing for whatever reason. It's fight and job dependant.

Agreed with the Baleroc comment, but I was just a filler for that fight, and I was eating so my healing on that encounter was basically shard healing.


Mastery is garbage for Rhyolith, agreed.

I'm not underselling haste. It has fabulous usages. I'm just talking and discussing the benefits of matching Haste threshold and maxxing out Mastery at the same time. I'm not one of those people who drop all haste to go full on mastery, I found a medium of both.

[Cexecution]

The reason that haste doesn't "plateau" is that HPS is based on heals/time, while cast speed is time/heal. I know thats an obvious statement, but haste is just as good at high levels because it gives you the same amount of casts/time, and only seems to diminish because it gives you less time off/cast. The only spell where there seems to be a diminishing return is Holy Radiance, and quite frankly basing gear choices and play style on one extra tick of one spell that probably isn't even doing a large amount of your healing is a bad idea. I'm not trying to say that you can't be a good player using different styles, but there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what haste actually does for your healing, and why it nearly always comes out on top using simulations or math.

edit:makes more sense

[Tastyfish]

Haste doesnt become a "wasted stat" after 1859, haste's value is still higher than that of all the other stats on most fights, even after the extra tick of HR.

I think the reason we look at it as wasted is because for HR you are looking at 2954 for your next tic. That is a huge jump.

[s8mpurye]

I think the reason we look at it as wasted is because for HR you are looking at 2954 for your next tic. That is a huge jump.

You need to take the entire thing into consideration when looking at it though.

#Ticks	Haste	Needed	Rating	DF	Heroism	DF + Hero	Duration
10	0.0%	0.0%	0	0	0	0	10.00
11	5.0%	0.0%	0	0	0	0	10.48
12	15.0%	0.0%	0	0	0	0	10.43
13	25.0%	6.0%	773.1	0	0	0	10.40
14	35.0%	14.5%	1859.4	0	0	0	10.37
15	45.0%	23.0%	2945.7	320.4	0	0	10.34
16	55.0%	31.5%	4032.0	1225.7	146.4	0	10.32
17	65.0%	40.0%	5118.3	2130.9	982.0	0	10.30
18	75.0%	48.5%	6204.6	3036.2	1817.6	0	10.29
19	85.0%	56.9%	7290.9	3941.4	2653.2	76.7	10.27
20	95.0%	65.4%	8377.2	4846.7	3488.8	773.1	10.26
21	105.0%	73.9%	9463.5	5751.9	4324.4	1469.4	10.24
22	115.0%	82.4%	10549.8	6657.2	5160.1	2165.8	10.23
23	125.0%	90.9%	11636.1	7562.4	5995.7	2862.1	10.22
24	135.0%	99.3%	12722.4	8467.7	6831.3	3558.5	10.21

These are sadly w/o shard. But as you can see there are a few other points in which you can gain extra ticks of HR. These ticks of HR are usually extremely important as we have cd'd for it. The only time they wont be so hot is when a BL is used in a pure dps phase where there is little to no healing to be done.

IF you meet the 2166 haste rating for a 22nd tick under BL+DF, using sow as well puts you up to 24ticks in 1 cast. At 2166 haste you also go from 15 to 16 ticks per HR cast that SoW is up. As well as an extra tick while DF+SoW is up.

Personally 2166 will be my "plateau" this tier for haste.

[Figar]

I think people need to worry about getting to a certain haste rating to get there amount of HR ticks to a certain point. Haste is great without the extra HR ticks. I am not saying always, but alot of the time the extra ticks are overheal. So the extra tick does nothing for you except pad your overheal numbers.

Personally 2166 will be my "plateau" this tier for haste.

[Deleted]

Not to get offtopic too much but how does the 5% spell haste buff Shadow priests figure into the cast time of my spells?

I have around 1878 haste and with judge and the buff sit somewhere around 25% spell haste but my Divine Lights are still above 2 secs cast time.

I don't think thats possible unless you are not actually judging something ( like a target dummy) before casting. At least, not with 1878 haste. I have 17xx haste and i'm sitting at like a 1.7 cast time in raids.