[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[Stormkhan]

Keep in mind that a small team of horde (as few as 3-4) were able to hold IBGY against 40 allys back in the old days. I remember in TBC when they added 'reinforcements' to AV... Pretty much meant the horde could win every single time.

SH bunker and gy were completely undefendable so the horde got a forward GY and a 100 point advantage. A few horde could kill the allies by defending the elites and snaring / aoeing down the allies in the pass at IBGY. All those who died spawned back at the top of the map. This was back when entrapment didn't have a DR and could spam proc on frost trap. So 1 hunter could snare all of them for like 20 seconds. Once they all were cleared out, they were forced to the top of the map and unable to retake SHgy. Just a matter of grinding them after that. Taking the tower next to SHgy was just icing... and an insurmountable advantage of 2 towers burnt for the horde.

mmm.

That was back in the days when hunters were able to hp stack to have 10 to 30 % more hp than top geared tanks.

Every man counts!

[Deleted]

I never modified my assertion. I included the "no true" from the start. Thus, no No true Scotsman fallacy has been committed.

The best representation of individual skill is solo PvP. For small group coordination, "small man" (i.e. WPvP with a group smaller than the group limit). Arena is mostly a representation of who spent the most time learning a fairly static choreography where the only factors are your own group setup and your opponents' (and maybe whether it's the map with the bridge...) The biggest misunderstanding, however, is that WPvP is nothing but zerg fights. If your game isn't hostile towards non-zerg group PvP (e.g. DAoC), the players are going to do just that. That's one of the things GW2 did absolutely wrong. They consider WvW to be a "casual" endgame and thus designed it around nothing but zerging because, after all, in their mind, the serious PvP players want repetitive "scenarios" where all that matters is that you're running the current "meta". Guess who quit the game after one or two months? The 8vs8 players from DAoC.

And what MMOs are balanced around fighting 1v1? A game with a lot of classes have no chance to do that. Im not sure why you making Arena pvp look like a skill less thing, because its certainly not. There is a reason only WoW PvP had big tournaments with broadcasts for a while, because no one wants to watch the zerg fest you call WvW.

[Valeron]

well no one really wants to watch mmorpg pvp in general

but I digress

[RoninaThorstone]

well no one really wants to watch mmorpg pvp in general
but I digress

So true.
It's like no one remembers what MLG said about blizzards 3v3 bracket before blizzard stuffed their mouth with money.

[Razael]

well no one really wants to watch mmorpg pvp in general

but I digress

Pretty much. Sure its fun for those involved probably, but i have a very hard time watching pvp in a MMO. Its too.. slow. xD

[Stormkhan]

So true.
It's like no one remembers what MLG said about blizzards 3v3 bracket before blizzard stuffed their mouth with money.

Pretty much. Sure its fun for those involved probably, but i have a very hard time watching pvp in a MMO. Its too.. slow. xD

Actually, Wrath 3v3 was extremely fast paced and was even fun to watch. Many comps worked and in tournaments Fotm wasn`t the only comp that was #1. It was a viable e-sport. After cata it just melted, whereby arenas started catering to every casual because no-one wanted to get one-shotted. Keep in mind that in Wrath ONE mistake meant you were dead, more or less.

Currently, people go oom and make many mistakes in a single game, but can still win with after their 20th attempt at chain cc and CD-Bursting.

Either way, Wildstar hasn`t shed much light upon their 3v3s, but with ways to counter crowd control and always `having-something-to-do`, arenas will be VERY competitive. I like the room they`ve kept for everyone to act differently based on what they think is best for the situation (for e.g, getting disarmed and running for cover or running to pick up their weapon).

Comparing it to WoW`s outdated arena doesn`t do it justice.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Im not sure why you making Arena pvp look like a skill less thing, because its certainly not.

The same reason everyone says such things: because they don't like it, they suck at it, or both. It's just a dismissive, often hyperbole-ridden rationalization.

Years ago, I used to dismiss RTS as just a "who can click the fastest" and other such nonsense. Was it true? No, but it was a nice way to make myself feel better about sucking at those games.

[Stormkhan]

The same reason everyone says such things: because they don't like it, they suck at it, or both. It's just a dismissive, often hyperbole-ridden rationalization.

Years ago, I used to dismiss RTS as just a "who can click the fastest" and other such nonsense. Was it true? No, but it was a nice way to make myself feel better about sucking at those games.

Give this guy a medal +1

[Feranor]

And what MMOs are balanced around fighting 1v1? A game with a lot of classes have no chance to do that. Im not sure why you making Arena pvp look like a skill less thing, because its certainly not. There is a reason only WoW PvP had big tournaments with broadcasts for a while, because no one wants to watch the zerg fest you call WvW.

DAoC had dedicated solo classes (the assassin and archer archetypes) that were balanced against one another, but the game's controls were too limited to really be about skill, which is why I've never seriously participated in it. In WoW I did solo PvP on my Feral from Alpha to early MoP and it was among the best PvP I've ever seen. Unfortunately the steady decline of quality opponents as well as Blizzard's ongoing butchering of the Feral spec made it barely enjoyable come MoP, so I quit.

And again, I'm not advocating GW2's WvW. It sucks. The base game is bad (downed state, no healers, sluggish controls, no passive CC imunities, Ascended gear and a couple of other things from my list above) and the WvW system itself does not provide a healthy environment for, say, 5vs5, to develop (not enough space, death doesn't really matter, objectives are too volatile, too few incentives to actually group, S/TPvP dividing the player base, ...).

The optimal PvP MMORPG would essentially combine WoW's controls and combat with DAoC's RvR. Is this the only feasible option? Likely not. All I'm saying is that we know what doesn't work, and I'm trying to get a rough sketch of whether Wildstar is going to repeat the mistakes made by the MMORPGs released since pre-instanced WoW.

The same reason everyone says such things: because they don't like it, they suck at it, or both. It's just a dismissive, often hyperbole-ridden rationalization.

Years ago, I used to dismiss RTS as just a "who can click the fastest" and other such nonsense. Was it true? No, but it was a nice way to make myself feel better about sucking at those games.

Since you are so fond of pointing out fallacies, here are some you just committed:

Argument from personal incredulity: "I cannot imagine how a good player could not consider Arena the pinnacle of PvP, thus any player ridiculing Arena must be bad."

Ecological fallacy: "Most players ridiculing Arena are just bad, thus given specific player P ridiculing Arena must just be bad."

False dilemma: "Players can only either be good and consider Arena the pinnacle of PvP, or be bad and ridicule it."

Ad hominem: "You're just a bad player."

Holier-than-thou: "I was once as mislead as you, but now I've seen the light."

Red Herring: "Arena is the pinnacle of PvP, you just say otherwise because you're bad at it."

RTS is actually a good example. I don't like playing RTS games very much. I'm still quite good at them for someone with little practice. But they're good PvP, just not of the kind I enjoy in particular. Arena is just bad. Apparently that's a distinction you cannot, or rather don't want to process. Oh well.

[Deleted]

havent played wow in a long time but i suspect they didnt nerf feral.. what they did was nerf the ability to have high dps, with the protection of a tank and slight hot healing.. cause you know druids were totally fine as a 1 on 1 class lol.

but i dont want balance around 1v1 because thats just silly imo.

[Keren]

Arena is just bad.

yup, I like your arguments, they are thought through and easy to understand - NOT!

Sorry, but all your post sounds like rubbish. Solo pvp should never be yardstick for pvp. It would rather end FOTM or in a Paper, Rock, Scissor festival. Your open "imba" feral pvp is just laughable, even more when you call yourself one of the best seen. Please

W* has different types of CC with different types of breaking it. There are anti-cc buffs that are provideable through combos, gear and healers, limited skill sets and armor deviation by augmentations.

While I'm at it, let's try a couple more potential death sentences:

• lack of spammable direct targeted heals

I really really hope there are no spammable heals. simply because that would make the whole pvp more interesting. I dont talk about long CDs, but just as long that you will have to shuffle all your CCs.

• lack of passive CC immunities

Why would you want passive CC immunities? I can understand that stuns are just aweful designs, but please inform you about blind, disarm etc. for W*

• sprint meter

Its just not natural to run all the time at highest speed?! Knowing when to use a sprint or a dogde is a matter of skill.

• "active defense" (e.g. GW2's dodge rolls, AoC's shields)

there will be active defense skills that negate damage fully or only by a specific amount, those abilities will eat one of your skill slots. yay, another point of skill neded to justify your limited skill set.

• "dynamic combat" (e.g. skill shots, AoC's combos)

I just cant argue about this, why would it be bad to have skill shots? Have you ever seens DotAs longrange skillshots? These are the most epic things to watch and accomplish when people predict enemy movements.

• downed state

First point if have to agree. Point givin. =)

• forced movement (e.g. Fear, Knockback)

nope, its a form of CC. as long as in those moments there is no thing like fire it can ebe fine. however, W* has no such things. If your blind, you will just have limited vision, if you are desoriented, your WASD buttons will be shuffled around for a short duration. Decide yourself if you want to move into a unknown direction or just stand still.

• being locked into animations

This is a 50/50 for me. I can fully understand it if complicated, so calling strong attacks, enforce the character to stand still. The same is when you would use something like blink or heroic leap and demand to actually change directions midways. However, 50/50..

• melee attacks requiring the user to stand still

same as the one above. If implemented the right way, I'm totally fine that some, strong or channeld abilites would root your toon.

• volatile targeting / unreliable abilities (e.g. GW2 abilities missing for stupid reasons and still going on full cooldown)

2nd point givin. Nobody wants to have vanishing abilties that still trigger cds.

• classes that combine burst with CC or Stealth

not predictable at this time, however, everything comes with a price in W* because you will have only 8 abilites. Also stealth is only a short duration of time as far as I can remember. If the CD is long enough, it can be balanced...

• "immersion" (e.g. blur, screen shaking)

Why would that a negative point? Blind is a blind. As the player of the character, you shouldn't be able to see what does happen around you. Anything else would only lock out your character and not your brain, which would deminish the actual usefulness of that CC massivly.

• sluggish / floaty controls (including camera movement)

technical problem again. I agree, but that will have to be given if argumenting about pvp.

• slow strafing

nope, I would avtually see you running the same speed straight and than sideways. This will actually be another point to see skill. If you can actually plan your movements right. I played Hunte rin WOW, and always wondered about how I fleewd sideways and stil managed to shot and daze my targets perfectly... In my opinion everything has to come with a price. You want to shot your target while still running away? be sure that you will be slower than him. However, afaik W* will not slow you down while strafing - be happy =)

• low maximum camera distance

thats again a technical limitation and i just cant imagine what games you have played to actually be hindered by a low camera distancy.

• narrow FoV

technical, no comment

• gear progression through PvP

actually, this can be good. as long as steps are minor. however, I like to enhance my char, make him stronger etc etc. thus I love gear progression *shrug*

• ELO

dunno what ELO is

• instanced PvP

? chess is named of of the greates pvp games, because their will always the same framework around and equal to both sides. Why would you want a free open pvp where anybody would ahve the chance to influence the battle?

• corpse looting (that's PK, not PvP)

depends on how its done. I loved the quest in old alterac to loot scraps of cloth to trigger the elite guards. 50/50 depending on implementation

• "criminal" systems (that's RP, not PvP)

"criminal as, if you defeating saomeone with a high k/d value you would get a higher benefit as farming someone with a low k/d? I would like something like that. It would even emnhance open pvp to hunt down known players. But I can imagine thats not what you thought with "criminal"..

• unavoidable underwater combat

3rd point =)

• flying

... *shrug* dont care. I would like to see no flying, or the way an mmo-shooters implemented those short time wings.



TL : DR: I find your lack of patient disturbing. However, I can't understand feranor about what pvp actually means to him, or how he would describe a balanced pvp system that promote skill over situational luck..

[Pantelija]

Are people really arguing that Deathmatch type arenas on MMO RPGs are a good thing and requires skill?

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Stuff

Those might have been fallacies, had I actually said those things. Thankfully, I didn't. I never claimed that arena combat was the pinnacle of PvP design or anything along those lines. I said that people who dismiss it as "not real PvP" are rationalizing because they are either bad at arena OR don't like it. Perhaps you are the greatest arena player in the world, but I think it's crystal clear from your posts that you don't like it- which is a perfectly valid opinion! The problem is that you are passing off this opinion as some kind of universal proclamation about what is or is not "real PvP" and who is or is not a "real PvPer." The fact that you liked DAOC pvp is great. If you want to communicate why, that is also great. But declaring it the supreme PvP model and all other PvP as "not real" or those players "not worth listening to" is hyperbolic nonsense that needs to be called out, sorry.

Incidentally, there are plenty of perfectly objective reasons to argue against Arena-style PvP. For one, that type of combat puts an extreme microscope on class balance which can have unintended repercussions in other game systems (Blizzard has admitted this numerous times). For two, it tends to be incredibly susceptible to flavor of the month combinations (due to #1). And so on.

Are people really arguing that Deathmatch type arenas on MMO RPGs are a good thing and requires skill?

Whether they are "good" or not is subjective. But of course arenas require skill. Whether it is a skillset you happen to like or not is a different question. I mean, I think soccer is a slow, boring sport....but I'm not under any delusion that it "doesn't require skill."

[Feranor]

havent played wow in a long time but i suspect they didnt nerf feral.. what they did was nerf the ability to have high dps, with the protection of a tank and slight hot healing.. cause you know druids were totally fine as a 1 on 1 class lol.

but i dont want balance around 1v1 because thats just silly imo.

Feral was originally designed around versatility. It didn't have a Rogue's or Warrior's damage, it didn't have a Mage's or Rogue's CC, or a Priest's healing. But it did have a reasonable degree of proficiency in each of these aspects. This made it the weakest spec in the hands of a bad player, but quite powerful when you knew what you were doing. The problem was that an all-rounder, while great for skirmishing, doesn't fit easily into an environment as limited as Arena; and because Blizzard felt it necessary to cram every spec into that pigeonhole they kept buffing its damage (so it could be played as a "pure" DPS role) and nerfing its everything else, thus making the spec boring and redundant.

yup, I like your arguments, they are thought through and easy to understand - NOT!

Sorry, but all your post sounds like rubbish. Solo pvp should never be yardstick for pvp. It would rather end FOTM or in a Paper, Rock, Scissor festival. Your open "imba" feral pvp is just laughable, even more when you call yourself one of the best seen. Please

Are you trying to say that Arena is not Rock-Paper-Scissors?

Both DAoC and D2 have/had pretty balanced 1v1, actually. WoW as well, at least until Cataclysm.

W* has different types of CC with different types of breaking it. There are anti-cc buffs that are provideable through combos, gear and healers, limited skill sets and armor deviation by augmentations.

Well, let's hope they've learned from GW2, which tried something similar with Stability and it turned out a broken mess.

I really really hope there are no spammable heals. simply because that would make the whole pvp more interesting. I dont talk about long CDs, but just as long that you will have to shuffle all your CCs.

AoC tried that. Didn't work.

Why would you want passive CC immunities? I can understand that stuns are just aweful designs, but please inform you about blind, disarm etc. for W*

Because if there is no passive immunity after the first application, or if there are too many different types of CC on separate immunities, players are going to abuse this to chain CC their targets.

Its just not natural to run all the time at highest speed?! Knowing when to use a sprint or a dogde is a matter of skill.

It's mostly the implications these mechanics have on the rest of the game that make them bad ideas. There's a reason why Mythic recently finally decided to make all Endurance regeneration buffs in DAoC passive and long range.

there will be active defense skills that negate damage fully or only by a specific amount, those abilities will eat one of your skill slots. yay, another point of skill neded to justify your limited skill set.

While ability bloat such as in WoW since MoP or RIFT is bad, limiting the amount of abilities to a handful does not make a class harder to play, quite the opposite.

I just cant argue about this, why would it be bad to have skill shots? Have you ever seens DotAs longrange skillshots? These are the most epic things to watch and accomplish when people predict enemy movements.

DotA is 2D, so its skill shots can only be compared to GTAoE abilities, which are perfectly fine. What absolutely does not work is TERA's approach: imagine there's a crosshair at the center of your screen. All of your projectile abilities aim at that crosshair. Now, if you want to have any spatial awareness, that crosshair is going to be aiming at your own feet most of the time because that's generally the best camera position during combat.

nope, its a form of CC. as long as in those moments there is no thing like fire it can ebe fine. however, W* has no such things. If your blind, you will just have limited vision, if you are desoriented, your WASD buttons will be shuffled around for a short duration. Decide yourself if you want to move into a unknown direction or just stand still.

The premise here is fairly simple. You want to avoid situations where the player could theoretically leave their computer and it wouldn't make any difference. When you're mezzed in DAoC you can still give your group valuable information. If your screen went all blurry when suffering from Nearsight or something along those lines you'd just be removed from the equation as a player, not just your character.

This is a 50/50 for me. I can fully understand it if complicated, so calling strong attacks, enforce the character to stand still. The same is when you would use something like blink or heroic leap and demand to actually change directions midways. However, 50/50..
same as the one above. If implemented the right way, I'm totally fine that some, strong or channeld abilites would root your toon.

I just think it's hilarious how the "dynamic combat" games are usually the ones that freeze you in place or force you to move a certain way when using your abilities.

Why would that a negative point? Blind is a blind. As the player of the character, you shouldn't be able to see what does happen around you. Anything else would only lock out your character and not your brain, which would deminish the actual usefulness of that CC massivly.

Precisely. A CC shutting out the player means that their skill is irrelevant during the CC.

nope, I would avtually see you running the same speed straight and than sideways. This will actually be another point to see skill. If you can actually plan your movements right. I played Hunte rin WOW, and always wondered about how I fleewd sideways and stil managed to shot and daze my targets perfectly... In my opinion everything has to come with a price. You want to shot your target while still running away? be sure that you will be slower than him. However, afaik W* will not slow you down while strafing - be happy =)

Want to know what slow strafing does to a game? Here you go:

thats again a technical limitation and i just cant imagine what games you have played to actually be hindered by a low camera distancy.

i.imgur.com/czv8bl.jpg

actually, this can be good. as long as steps are minor. however, I like to enhance my char, make him stronger etc etc. thus I love gear progression *shrug*

This is a main part of what killed RIFT. Certain groups farmed literally 24/7 from release and were so far ahead in terms of gear after a couple of weeks that it was virtually impossible to defeat them.

dunno what ELO is

WoW Arena uses an ELO system to determine ratings. It's very destructive because it encourages playing to win at all costs.

? chess is named of of the greates pvp games, because their will always the same framework around and equal to both sides. Why would you want a free open pvp where anybody would ahve the chance to influence the battle?

Mostly because it's less boring and repetitive. It also allows the players to play as they see fit, not as the often incompetent developers want them to.

depends on how its done. I loved the quest in old alterac to loot scraps of cloth to trigger the elite guards. 50/50 depending on implementation

Sure, that's fine. I mean losing your gear when you die.

"criminal as, if you defeating saomeone with a high k/d value you would get a higher benefit as farming someone with a low k/d? I would like something like that. It would even emnhance open pvp to hunt down known players. But I can imagine thats not what you thought with "criminal"..

"Criminal" as in "You'll get swarmed by guards when you enter towns."

... *shrug* dont care. I would like to see no flying, or the way an mmo-shooters implemented those short time wings.

Flying (and consumables, though the two are connected) are what killed AION.

TL : DR: I find your lack of patient disturbing. However, I can't understand feranor about what pvp actually means to him, or how he would describe a balanced pvp system that promote skill over situational luck..

Lack of patience? Haven't there been enough failed attempts at making a functioning PvP system since DAoC yet?

[Pejo]

So anyways, what do people think of Adventures? Think they'll be like instant adventures in Rift but be made of multiple of them to make them last 2-3 hours? Think they'll be closer to instances like BRD that are very open but long to do? How about difficulty...anyone think they'll be harder than heroics, equal to, or easier to. Should be very interesting on where they fit in the reward structure.

I'm hoping they'll be completely new content like dungeons are, versus reusing zones, and that they are at a level between heroic dungeons and normal raids. It would allow for a feel of a smaller raid for those who do not want to do 20/40 man.

[Kelimbror]

So anyways, what do people think of Adventures? Think they'll be like instant adventures in Rift but be made of multiple of them to make them last 2-3 hours? Think they'll be closer to instances like BRD that are very open but long to do? How about difficulty...anyone think they'll be harder than heroics, equal to, or easier to. Should be very interesting on where they fit in the reward structure.

I'm hoping they'll be completely new content like dungeons are, versus reusing zones, and that they are at a level between heroic dungeons and normal raids. It would allow for a feel of a smaller raid for those who do not want to do 20/40 man.

I seriously hope they abandon whatever already done concept they have planned and instead make their Adventures a combination of Rift IA's, LotRO Skirmishes, and WoW Flex raids. Basically I want content that is randomly generated, but scales all the way down to one person with adjustable difficulties yielding higher rewards.

I've actually wanted this in a game for a long, long time. Ever since I saw LotRO do it pretty well years ago, I've wondered how other games haven't nailed this yet. Rift tried with Chronicles and came close (though no adjustment) and WoW attempted with Scenarios, but hard capped the players.

For me having scalable difficulty that I can do alone, with my wife, or with my wife and inlaws (4man) would be enough end game for the 'solo' player in me that I would be satisfied no problem. You have your own progression via unlocking harder challenges and also scaling the difficulty up which also allows you to keep getting better gear.

Stage releases of new ones with the implementation of raids, and bam. Easy and alternate solo/small group progression outside of raiding. It's so easy to conceive, it hurts that no one has made this happen yet.

[Razael]

I want a MMO to do solo progression that isn't reputation farming for like so long.
I like the social aspects MMOs bring, but nowadays i don't always have the time to do dungeons, or raids, so instead of getting home , finding that i have half an hour, 45 min to play and not playing at all , because half that time im in the queue, some bit sized soloable "dungeons" would be awesome.
Or make them like big, with checkpoints just like a raid, with a weekly reset.

Give gear progression, inferior to raids or dungeons ofc, but a increase in quality and power from leveling gear, so you'd feel worth your while.

The most recent MMO i've seen do this properly is Neverwinter , whilst leveling you'd visit some pretty cool solo dungeons. And the foundry would allow that too, kinda, if there was actual progression attached to it.

[RoninaThorstone]

I want a MMO to do solo progression that isn't reputation farming for like so long.
I like the social aspects MMOs bring, but nowadays i don't always have the time to do dungeons, or raids, so instead of getting home , finding that i have half an hour, 45 min to play and not playing at all , because half that time im in the queue, some bit sized soloable "dungeons" would be awesome.
Or make them like big, with checkpoints just like a raid, with a weekly reset.

Give gear progression, inferior to raids or dungeons ofc, but a increase in quality and power from leveling gear, so you'd feel worth your while.

The most recent MMO i've seen do this properly is Neverwinter , whilst leveling you'd visit some pretty cool solo dungeons. And the foundry would allow that too, kinda, if there was actual progression attached to it.

Rift's chronicles are what you are thinking of.

Unfortunately, they end up feeling a little bit like throw away content due to the subpar gear.

[Razael]

Rift's chronicles are what you are thinking of.

Unfortunately, they end up feeling a little bit like throw away content due to the subpar gear.

Thats the problem right there. The game is solid, really, but it doesn't stand out for me, among games that are very similiar.

[jearle]

Rift's chronicles are what you are thinking of.

Unfortunately, they end up feeling a little bit like throw away content due to the subpar gear.

This is the problem with the concept of solo end game content. People want awesome solo content but they want the rewards to be on par with larger group content which really can't happen because it would ruin the drive of people to form larger groups to go out and kill harder stuff and get better loot which is a main draw of these types of games.

I have nothing against solo content and solo end game progression but ideally to me it would be separate from scalable raids. Killing a huge dragon in a larger group of people should hold some sense of awe to it which is taken away by scaling that same dragon down to being able to be killed by 1 person in a different mode.

Solo content like Rift's chronicles or a 1 person version of WoWs scenarios would be great if it allowed you get some lower quality gear, but upgrade that gear over time and running the content solo, maybe a +1 , +2 system or something along the lines of gear upgrades that allow the solo person to progress gear wise over time but not make it the goto method of gearing your toon.