[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[RoninaThorstone]

I'm afraid with their circuit board system it is actually going to be worse. It's like enchanting + reforging + gems with more complications woven in as one feature. WoW has been struggling to remove the feeling of getting gear as a chore instead of just excitement.

People can call it dumbing down, but it was much more fun back in the day when you waited for that awesome drop and finally got it. You slapped it on and felt like a king. Now you get an awesome drop and instantly consult a spreadsheet to determine how you need to reforge it, gem it, etc.

It's a compounding problem because each new piece of gear results in a complete reforge and regem of your gear, as does every single patch. And this is in a game that has tried to reduce the need to do it. It's pretty staggering. I can't imagine a game where the system is actually more complex will provide less hassle. It's definitely going to need a side by side spreadsheet analysis just to properly gear your character.

It's fun for some people, but takes a lot of the oomph out of getting gear...arguably one of the more potent reward stimuli in MMOs.

I suspect I am the only one on this forum who thinks this way but, I really wish MMOs would trend away from this. Instead focus on making achievements and cosmetics from achievements the main form of reward.

For example, let's say there was, in addition to normal and heroic a master mode for Deadmines in WoW. Each boss would have an achievement and a few other achievements throughout the instance for each difficulty. There would be a meta achievement for the dungeon and its separate difficulties as well. Boss achievements would get you each a part of a costume, defias bandit, defias pirate, and finally vanclef armor. The meta would get you the helm for each set and a title. How you choose to look would broadcast what you have done. I mean, I would remove traditional leveling all together and have a statless level system where achievement points act as exp. So a level 90 would be like someone with 95% of all the achievements in the game complete and would have no advantages over a new player. I mean, I guess you could customize your build and stats but everything would be a +10 X / -10 Y sort of deal.

Rant, I know, but as it relates to wildstar, they are going to have competitive raiding with weekly boards. Gear always seems to fly in the face of true competition. /shrug

[Razael]

It was my understanding GW2 was gonna work like that . I was mistaken. And disapoint. I knew there was gonna be leveling, and minor gear upgrades (While leveling = Fine, Masterwork, when at cap Exotic), and i thought they were really gonna push for skins and visual upgrades after that instead of power upgrades (Ascended).

[Viscoe]

So all gear would run off of the idea of Challenge mode gear?

Interesting concept. Not one I'd throw out, definitely. I would like to see how it worked for an entire game though. Especially since everyone wants a cash shop now - selling cosmetic gear WOULD be the equivalent of selling end-game stuff. :/

[RoninaThorstone]

So all gear would run off of the idea of Challenge mode gear?

Interesting concept. Not one I'd throw out, definitely. I would like to see how it worked for an entire game though. Especially since everyone wants a cash shop now - selling cosmetic gear WOULD be the equivalent of selling end-game stuff. :/

Oh yeah, it would probably have to be a subscription game. I mean, I would subscribe to something like that where it doesn't have any gating or grinding to get to content you want. Which isn't to say there wouldn't be grinding or questing, just that they would be optional and would also have achievements and cosmetics attached to them.

Like, complete all winterspring quests and challenge quests (timed, solo v elites, ect) and get a wampa minipet and a title.

*Just log in and play whatever you think will be fun.

[Deleted]

I suspect I am the only one on this forum who thinks this way but, I really wish MMOs would trend away from this. Instead focus on making achievements and cosmetics from achievements the main form of reward.

For example, let's say there was, in addition to normal and heroic a master mode for Deadmines in WoW. Each boss would have an achievement and a few other achievements throughout the instance for each difficulty. There would be a meta achievement for the dungeon and its separate difficulties as well. Boss achievements would get you each a part of a costume, defias bandit, defias pirate, and finally vanclef armor. The meta would get you the helm for each set and a title. How you choose to look would broadcast what you have done. I mean, I would remove traditional leveling all together and have a statless level system where achievement points act as exp. So a level 90 would be like someone with 95% of all the achievements in the game complete and would have no advantages over a new player. I mean, I guess you could customize your build and stats but everything would be a +10 X / -10 Y sort of deal.

Rant, I know, but as it relates to wildstar, they are going to have competitive raiding with weekly boards. Gear always seems to fly in the face of true competition. /shrug

Yeah remove the gear progression and there wont be anyone left for that competitive raiding. A lot of people want rewards that make your character stronger, not a pet or a costume.

If Wildstar is targeting the old Wow crowd, this is the opposite of the direction they should be heading.

[jearle]

Yeah remove the gear progression and there wont be anyone left for that competitive raiding. A lot of people want rewards that make your character stronger, not a pet or a costume.

If Wildstar is targeting the old Wow crowd, this is the opposite of the direction they should be heading.

Why can't there be both?

Gear progression stat wise and strength wise appeals to a segment of players and fits into the traditional raiding formula.

Gear progression cosmetically could be another type of end game, kind of an alternate advancement system this would appeal to another segment of players.

WoW tried to do this with Challenge Mode transmog gear but tbh it was really only obtainable if you have a solid group of people working together to run the dungeons to work towards it. This isn't great for the solo player.

I like raiding, but I also like the idea of getting away from people and doing my own thing and still be able to progress my character.

[RoninaThorstone]

Yeah remove the gear progression and there wont be anyone left for that competitive raiding. A lot of people want rewards that make your character stronger, not a pet or a costume.

If Wildstar is targeting the old Wow crowd, this is the opposite of the direction they should be heading.

Don't you see how these two ideas clash?

Character power growth is an RPG idea. It was designed for single player or cooperative table top, turn based, dice rolling game play.

It is the antithesis of competitive play. It's like if you were playing a game of chess and the guy replaced his bishops and rooks with queens because he has either played longer than you, won more games than you, or some form of RNG. There is no situation where you would think, "hmm, I guess it's okay that he has that advantage" in a competition.

[Deleted]

Why can't there be both?

Gear progression stat wise and strength wise appeals to a segment of players and fits into the traditional raiding formula.

Gear progression cosmetically could be another type of end game, kind of an alternate advancement system this would appeal to another segment of players.

WoW tried to do this with Challenge Mode transmog gear but tbh it was really only obtainable if you have a solid group of people working together to run the dungeons to work towards it. This isn't great for the solo player.

I like raiding, but I also like the idea of getting away from people and doing my own thing and still be able to progress my character.

Because raiding usually gives you both gear progression and a new set of looks. From what i have read Wildstar will focus more on solo play than Wow does for instance, so there will probably be stuff to do when you want to get away from people. But please, leave raiding as it is.

Don't you see how these two ideas clash?

Character power growth is an RPG idea. It was designed for single player or cooperative table top, turn based, dice rolling game play.

It is the antithesis of competitive play. It's like if you were playing a game of chess and the guy replaced his bishops and rooks with queens because he has either played longer than you, won more games than you, or some form of RNG. There is no situation where you would think, "hmm, I guess it's okay that he has that advantage" in a competition.

Because gear is not going to change the outcome in the top placements anyway, skill is. You dont see top guilds in Wow downtalk a World first because they were not as lucky with the gear do you? Four horsemen is the fight where gear mattered big time(set bonus for tanks), other than that, maybe resistance fights, which dont exist anymore. This isnt a sport, nothing will be 100% equal, be it gear, RNG or whatever.

[Kelimbror]

You dont see top guilds in Wow downtalk a World first because they were not as lucky with the gear do you

Haha, yes. Every single content tier.

[RoninaThorstone]

This isnt a sport, nothing will be 100% equal, be it gear, RNG or whatever.

If you are okay with that in your games then more power to you.

Like I said, I suspect I am one of the only ones on these forums who thinks that MMOs should move away from stat advantages and focus on skill based achievement as a means of reward.

- - - Updated - - -

Haha, yes. Every single content tier.

That too. When I played WoW I regularly read about guilds saying things like "well, the BiS trinket dropped for their rogues two weeks in a row. You can clearly see why they downed the last boss. Just look at the dps difference between our rogues and theirs. There wasn't that gap last tier."

[Remilia]

Honestly when it comes to MMOs, I'm sort of indifferent to the stat based games. However competitive play on an uneven platform isn't really that competitive.
Since people tend to imply that I'm a scrub saying that gear does matter. I play games like osu! or Touhou if I want to play a skill based game, something that is 100% skill, not stat. I always push my limits for those game, see how far I get, how much I can improve, and then keep going from there. Song difficulty that were hard in osu! when I first started are now trivial a lot of times the further I get. If people feel like disputing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT1k5UXHuC8 Is one of the recording, it is actually really easy in comparison to the other songs I play.

Now that that's out of the way.

I understand that some people like stat base. RNG stat base games is just that, RNG. Getting one shotted by a boss's hit because you don't have enough gear isn't skill based. It's just RNG. If it was skill base (exaggeration inc), then you can beat the game naked.

[Deleted]

Haha, yes. Every single content tier.

Mind finding those forum posts then? Because i havnt seen any major drama about it.

If you are okay with that in your games then more power to you.

Like I said, I suspect I am one of the only ones on these forums who thinks that MMOs should move away from stat advantages and focus on skill based achievement as a means of reward.

Its reality, as long as you have RNG in a game it will never be fair. RNG beings far more to the table, as does gear progression, than leaving it out for the sake of top guilds having the exact same gear. Then again, those top guilds wouldnt exist at all with achievements and costumes as the only reward.

[RoninaThorstone]

Then again, those top guilds wouldnt exist at all with achievements and costumes as the only reward.

Why not? You even say that gear is irrelevant for top level guilds.

Because gear is not going to change the outcome in the top placements anyway, skill is.

What does gear add to the game besides a false sense of growth?

And I say false because every tier, previous gear becomes "less powerful" because the as the Ilv increases, everything below top Ilv becomes weaker in comparison. Really, the only growth in power you have is relative to new players.

If you conceptualize it as a level system it would be like if you were level 100 in patch 1.0 and then suddenly you were level 90 in patch 1.1. You were still as strong as a level 100 (in patch 1.0) compared to a level 0 but you are still lower level than you were before the patch hit.

[Kelimbror]

Mind finding those forum posts then? Because i havnt seen any major drama about it

Oh I'm not trolling for anything I consider major, but to think that progression raiders are some above average specimens of humanity who will be completely ok with losing in any situation, let alone an unbalanced one, is probably naive at best.

And as for some form of evidence, just look at the train wreck threads that talk about asian guilds and their 'world firsts'. Gear is brought up many many many times since their unique lockouts let them have a gear advantage. It's actually the number one reason their kill is discredited from actually being a world first. Double lockouts, double modes, double the gear = everyone invalidates them.

And to be clear, I completely agree with it. Granted the West scene has less outright obvious complaints, but the idea that someone having better gear makes their attempts easier is not only logical, but it does happen.

[Deleted]

i think the bigger issue is asian 25 man raids have way better gear.. and when used in a non buffed 10 man raid it makes the content alot easier. I dont think anyone would have a problem with world first 25 man's.. or it would make it alot harder to support the arguement anyway.

[Deleted]

Why not? You even say that gear is irrelevant for top level guilds.

It still improves the power of the character and im guessing most of them find it more exciting than a new costume or pet. Gear hunt is a huge part of the game.

What does gear add to the game besides a false sense of growth?

And I say false because every tier, previous gear becomes "less powerful" because the as the Ilv increases, everything below top Ilv becomes weaker in comparison. Really, the only growth in power you have is relative to new players.

If you conceptualize it as a level system it would be like if you were level 100 in patch 1.0 and then suddenly you were level 90 in patch 1.1. You were still as strong as a level 100 (in patch 1.0) compared to a level 0 but you are still lower level than you were before the patch hit.

It is still a growth, even though it doesnt mean anything when the next patch hits. You are talking about how WoW does it today, that is not how it once was though. You make gear as valuable as you want, will be interesting to see how far Wildstar takes it.

Oh I'm not trolling for anything I consider major, but to think that progression raiders are some above average specimens of humanity who will be completely ok with losing in any situation, let alone an unbalanced one, is probably naive at best.

And as for some form of evidence, just look at the train wreck threads that talk about asian guilds and their 'world firsts'. Gear is brought up many many many times since their unique lockouts let them have a gear advantage. It's actually the number one reason their kill is discredited from actually being a world first. Double lockouts, double modes, double the gear = everyone invalidates them.

And to be clear, I completely agree with it. Granted the West scene has less outright obvious complaints, but the idea that someone having better gear makes their attempts easier is not only logical, but it does happen.

I have been playing in guilds who are near the top, and not once have i heard a complaint that "damn the other guys on the server won because they were lucky with the drops".

And of course you bring up the asian example, not even going to comment on that one.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Top wow guilds are also more like corporations than social collectives at this point. When normal modes first hit, they'll split into a 4+ raids of raiders + raiding alts to distribute gear more efficiently and mitigate RNG.

[RoninaThorstone]

I don't know why MMO developers always seem to focus on rewards over all other aspects in their content design. Then again, players do seem to demand it, so I guess it makes sense for the developers to give them what they want.

The sad fact - at least as I see it - is that in a vacuum MMOs really aren't that much fun to play. The fun all seems to come from "doing stuff with friends" and "character progression", not the actual playing of the game. It might be a bit of a chicken and egg thing. (Do the games focus on progression so much because the gameplay itself isn't that fun, or is the gameplay not that fun because the developers focus more on the progression?)

Why do we conflate character progression with gear progression? There are many ways one can progress. I suggest that achievement could sate a persons desire for progression if it were centralized in the same way that gear and exp based leveling are in a traditional MMO.

[Deleted]

because people like gear progression?

[RoninaThorstone]

What other sorts of "progression" would you suggest? People seem very attached to gear as progression in MMOs now, any attempts to deviate from that have been met with quite a bit of vitriol at worst or apathy at best in many of the mainstream games.

I outlined a possible alternative a page back

I suspect I am the only one on this forum who thinks this way but, I really wish MMOs would trend away from this. Instead focus on making achievements and cosmetics from achievements the main form of reward.

For example, let's say there was, in addition to normal and heroic a master mode for Deadmines in WoW. Each boss would have an achievement and a few other achievements throughout the instance for each difficulty. There would be a meta achievement for the dungeon and its separate difficulties as well. Boss achievements would get you each a part of a costume, defias bandit, defias pirate, and finally vanclef armor. The meta would get you the helm for each set and a title. How you choose to look would broadcast what you have done. I mean, I would remove traditional leveling all together and have a statless level system where achievement points act as exp. So a level 90 would be like someone with 95% of all the achievements in the game complete and would have no advantages over a new player. I mean, I guess you could customize your build and stats but everything would be a +10 X / -10 Y sort of deal.

Rant, I know, but as it relates to wildstar, they are going to have competitive raiding with weekly boards. Gear always seems to fly in the face of true competition. /shrug

You could configure player progression around anything if you make it central to the game. In traditional MMOs, gear not only decides how hard you hit but if you hit, if you dodge, pretty much everything. If you remove that, make it skill based, and then adjust not only the reward system but how the rewards present themselves you can shift the focus of the game to anything. Achievements, collections, story, ect.