[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[Sinnermighty]

Top wow guilds are also more like corporations than social collectives at this point. When normal modes first hit, they'll split into a 4+ raids of raiders + raiding alts to distribute gear more efficiently and mitigate RNG.

Wish I had a salary

As for this gear progression debate, all I have to say is if GW2 had raids & a gear power curve I would of & many others stuck around and played it more.

[Deleted]

so gear progression it is then.. achievements? i expect that along with gear.

i do like multiple ways of obtaining gear though (not eshop).. but crafting, world drops, rare mob spawns, pve token vendors etc etc

[Elim Garak]

There are only two ways of character progression:
1. Power - character stats (gear included)
2. Functionality - what character can do (abilities, talents, etc)

Achievements is not progression, neither is cosmetics. Unless it is some kind of semantics argument.

[RoninaThorstone]

There are only two ways of character progression:
1. Power - character stats (gear included)
2. Functionality - what character can do (abilities, talents, etc)

Achievements is not progression, neither is cosmetics. Unless it is some kind of semantics argument.

Progression is completing/working toward whatever the goal of the game is.

If the game was about, say, taking pictures of all 151 pokemon then progression would be the number of pokemon you have pictures of.

[Sinnermighty]

Progression is completing/working toward whatever the goal of the game is.

If the game was about, say, taking pictures of all 151 pokemon then progression would be the number of pokemon you have pictures of.

Yes, and the point is; an MMORPG without character progression just isn't a fun concept to the majority of people. See GW2 again.

I would prefer it if there was a gear treadmill and there no major catchup mechanics (like LFR,Flex,Normals - prefer one difficulty), and it goes back to the TBC model but oh well, there is hope with that for Wildstar

[RoninaThorstone]

Yes, and the point is; an MMORPG without character progression just isn't a fun concept to the majority of people. See GW2 again.
I would prefer it if there was a gear treadmill and there no major catchup mechanics (like LFR,Flex,Normals - prefer one difficulty), and it goes back to the TBC model but oh well, there is hope with that for Wildstar

...

I read your post, #9616, the first time. I already pointed out that mine is a minority view. You are just restating what I said in my first post / sentance on this topic.

[Sinnermighty]

...

I read your post, #9616, the first time. I already pointed out that mine is a minority view. You are just restating what I said in my first post / sentance on this topic.

I understand, I don't really follow this thread due to certain reasons.

Really interested in them showing off the raids and Elder Games a bit more.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I mean, the fact they are pushing 40 man raids is already pretty silly for reasons the thread has covered several times. But getting rid of catch-up mechanisms will just ensure that the few hardcore players who stick around after beating all the content in <2 weeks will then leave once they realize they have no recruiting pool.

I liked that model back in the day too, but it's not 2005. Onerous logistical barriers in a new game will just send people crawling back to LFR and Loot Island in a heartbeat. If modern games keep wanting to copy Blizzard at the Diku raid paradigm, they need to actually beat them at their own game with a better LFR, better flex-raiding, and better/more repeatable solo/small group content.

[RoninaThorstone]

If I were in carbines shoes I would be rushing to implement a 10-40 man flexraid system to try and one up WoW on their scaling raid content. They've already got scaling 1-5 man content with the shiphands.

I love scaling content. Part of me is frustrated at Blizzards ability to incorperate every almost innovation that a different second generation MMO comes up with and another part of me is glad because it is raising the industry standard... I feel like the fastest way to get blizzard to add a dance studio (lol TBC) would be if rift, swtor, wildstar, or GW2 added one.

[Elim Garak]

Progression is completing/working toward whatever the goal of the game is.

If the game was about, say, taking pictures of all 151 pokemon then progression would be the number of pokemon you have pictures of.

So it is a semantic argument.
Note the word "character" next to "progression".
It is somewhat different from "game", "dungeon", "raid", "meta achievement" or in one word "player" progression. As in your pokemon example.
MMORPGs cannot survive with player progression alone. It's just a condiment. A side dish for the main course.
Not to mention that MMORPGs have no other goal than to progress your character.

[RoninaThorstone]

So it is a semantic argument.
Note the word "character" next to "progression".
It is somewhat different from "game", "dungeon", "raid", "meta achievement" or in one word "player" progression. As in your pokemon example.
MMORPGs cannot survive with player progression alone. It's just a condiment. A side dish for the main course.
Not to mention that MMORPGs have no other goal than to progress your character.

That ignores the plethora of players who focus on pet collection, crafting, veiw the gearing process as a pointless grind (you hear this constantly).

Personally, I view gearing and leveling as a gating mechanic where you have to play though one type of game (leveling) and then do content you may not want to do (dungeons) in order to do the content you want to do (raiding).

It's as if you pop castlevania into your NES and then had to play through final fantasy 1 in order to play legend of zelda 2: links adventure which once you got far enough in, you could play castlevania.

[Deleted]

I mean, the fact they are pushing 40 man raids is already pretty silly for reasons the thread has covered several times.
But getting rid of catch-up mechanisms will just ensure that the few hardcore players who stick around after beating all the content in <2 weeks will then leave once they realize they have no recruiting pool.

no thats just a few opinions. some like them, some hate them.. i fail to see what they shouldnt have them because some people dont like them. The guild "shells" actually makes getting the numbers far far easier.

How will they "beat" all the content when raids can potentially change and become a weekly competition simialr to PVP ladder style seasons.

I liked that model back in the day too, but it's not 2005. Onerous logistical barriers in a new game will just send people crawling back to LFR and Loot Island in a heartbeat. If modern games keep wanting to copy Blizzard at the Diku raid paradigm, they need to actually beat them at their own game with a better LFR, better flex-raiding, and better/more repeatable solo/small group content.

we aint getting LFR.. and im all for that. well since we're promised solo end game / story content.. its a wait and see until launch.

[Elim Garak]

That ignores the plethora of players who focus on pet collection, crafting, veiw the gearing process as a pointless grind (you hear this constantly).

None of those things are part of character progression. And if they view gear progression as pointless grind - they are playing the wrong type of game.
What's the point of having all the pets for instance? In a MMORPG? NONE. But gear matters. With each tier your character gets more powerful. Yes it's a perpetuum mobile made out of sticks and fueled by carrots that magically grow on those sticks. But hey, without it - there would be nothing to do in the game.

Personally, I view gearing and leveling as a gating mechanic where you have to play though one type of game (leveling) and then do content you may not want to do (dungeons) in order to do the content you want to do (raiding).

Yeah , yeah, wouldn't it be great if you needed to do dungeon and raid just ONCE, right?

It's as if you pop castlevania into your NES and then had to play through final fantasy 1 in order to play legend of zelda 2: links adventure which once you got far enough in, you could play castlevania.

Single player games have an end. MMORPGs have not. They need endless progression. Meaningful, game-play wise, character progression.

[Deleted]

That ignores the plethora of players who focus on pet collection, crafting, veiw the gearing process as a pointless grind (you hear this constantly).

Personally, I view gearing and leveling as a gating mechanic where you have to play though one type of game (leveling) and then do content you may not want to do (dungeons) in order to do the content you want to do (raiding).

It's as if you pop castlevania into your NES and then had to play through final fantasy 1 in order to play legend of zelda 2: links adventure which once you got far enough in, you could play castlevania.

aslong as the content is enjoyable its by far the best and most effective way of keeping players playing and spending.. and since there isnt a brilliant alternative because all the things you can list should and could be thrown in with gear progression.

I think entry level gear should be made very easy to obtain and quickly when a new tier is released for both pve and pvp.. always annoying having a break and coming back mid expansion / season to be left way way behind.

[RoninaThorstone]

None of those things are part of character progression. And if they view gear progression as pointless grind - they are playing the wrong type of game.
What's the point of having all the pets for instance? In a MMORPG? NONE. But gear matters. With each tier your character gets more powerful. Yes it's a perpetuum mobile made out of sticks and fueled by carrots that magically grow on those sticks. But hey, without it - there would be nothing to do in the game.

Yeah , yeah, wouldn't it be great if you needed to do dungeon and raid just ONCE, right?

Single player games have an end. MMORPGs have not. They need endless progression. Meaningful, game-play wise, character progression.

Gear matters in games where gear is designed to matter. I've noticed you keep tacking on RPG to the end of MMO despite the fact I am talking about MMOs. Are you trying to move the goal post or something?

Not sure what you are getting at... I am talking about a system where you could log in and play content that you want to play instantly like raiding, battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons, questing, ect. You know, without having to do content you may or may not want to do to unlock the content you are paying money to play.

Again, not exactly what I was talking about. I will attempt to rephrase it.
A guy is an avid arena player. He hates PVE, hates leveling, and hates grinding gear. His class gets nerfed to the ground and is no longer able to function in an arena setting. So he decides he wants to play a different class. Now he has to grind said class to max level, grind gear, and then FINALLY he gets to play arena again. What is the point of making him do all that content he doesn't want to do?

Let me tell you what happened. He quit and sold his HWL shaman in TBC during that half a year that lightnings spell power coeff was bugged. Never came back. I really missed playing with him. If he didn't have to go through a game mode that he didn't want to do, he probably would still be playing today.

[Elim Garak]

Gear matters in games where gear is designed to matter. I've noticed you keep tacking on RPG to the end of MMO despite the fact I am talking about MMOs. Are you trying to move the goal post or something?

It's kinda silly to discuss gear progression on such a global level as MMOs which stands for "massive multiplayer online" - that is - it's not even a game. Not to mention that only MMORPGs have gear progression.

So who's moving what here?

Gear matters in RPGs, exactly. If you don't like gear progression - don't play RPGs, MMO or not.

Not sure what you are getting at... I am talking about a system where you could log in and play content that you want to play instantly like raiding, battlegrounds, arenas, dungeons, questing, ect. You know, without having to do content you may or may not want to do to unlock the content you are paying money to play.

What would be the point of doing the same raid over and over again in such a game? Please, don't even think of saying "cause it's fun", because it isn't that fun - after first couple of times.

Again, not exactly what I was talking about. I will attempt to rephrase it.
A guy is an avid arena player. He hates PVE, hates leveling, and hates grinding gear. His class gets nerfed to the ground and is no longer able to function in an arena setting. So he decides he wants to play a different class. Now he has to grind said class to max level, grind gear, and then FINALLY he gets to play arena again. What is the point of making him do all that content he doesn't want to do?

A player who hates PVE plays a PVE game and hates leveling? He was asking for it! More so he was paying for it.
There are special games for such people that have ONLY arenas. Why don't he go play them instead of whining about gear progression in PVE game.

Let me tell you what happened. He quit and sold his HWL shaman in TBC during that half a year that lightnings spell power coeff was bugged. Never came back. I really missed playing with him. If he didn't have to go through a game mode that he didn't want to do, he probably would still be playing today.

Good for him. But that doesn't invalidate gear progression in the least.

[RoninaThorstone]

It's kinda silly to discuss gear progression on such a global level as MMOs which stands for "massive multiplayer online" - that is - it's not even a game. Not to mention that only MMORPGs have gear progression.

So who's moving what here?

Gear matters in RPGs, exactly. If you don't like gear progression - don't play RPGs, MMO or not.


What would be the point of doing the same raid over and over again in such a game? Please, don't even think of saying "cause it's fun", because it isn't that fun - after first couple of times.

A player who hates PVE plays a PVE game and hates leveling? He was asking for it! More so he was paying for it.
There are special games for such people that have ONLY arenas. Why don't he go play them instead of whining about gear progression in PVE game.

Good for him. But that doesn't invalidate gear progression in the least.

Again, if you look at my OP on this topic you would realize why I specifically said MMO and then used "traditional MMO" to describe gear based games (or as you would call it MMORPG). I am saying "I wish there were more apples on the market" and you are replying with "You can't have apple flavor in an orange!"

Achievements? Run X Y times for Z. And yes, for fun. Some people find things fun even after the first time they beat it. Hard modes too. Ideally there would be a lot of achievements to get in everything.

There's more to WoW than PVE.

The intentions wasn't to invaldiated gear progression. Merely to highlight the issue it presents, which is that gating content behind a completely different kind of content isn't a good idea. Also, you forgot about leveling. Why is leveling mandatory? You alienate everyone who doesn't like leveling but might enjoy arenas, rbgs, raids, heroic dungeons, challenge mode, ect.

- - - Updated - - -

Developers seem to have a problem creating content in MMOs that people enjoy enough to do it for the sake of doing it.

But I am not sure that that is true. Clearly, the majority of WoW players (60% are solo players) are okay with just sort of motoring around doing quests, gathering resources, crafting, maybe doing a lfg dungeon. So the questing content is fun to a lot of people... They are just missing for most of the forum dialog because they aren't engaged in the community (who can blame them?). Arena, rbgs, bgs, raiding, dungeons all get decent traffic. So some people must find them fun. What I think is that people only find parts of the content that an MMO offers fun. Why make them do the content they don't want to do?

[Elim Garak]

Again, if you look at my OP on this topic you would realize why I specifically said MMO and then used "traditional MMO" to describe gear based games (or as you would call it MMORPG). I am saying "I wish there were more apples on the market" and you are replying with "You can't have apple flavor in an orange!"

There are all the apples there can be on the market right now. The problem is you want exactly an apple that is also an orange.

Achievements? Run X Y times for Z. And yes, for fun. Some people find things fun even after the first time they beat it. Hard modes too. Ideally there would be a lot of achievements to get in everything.

No, for the reward. Once you did the achievement and got the reward - you don't do it again. And if you have to on another character - you hate it and whine about "not account wide". You say "achievements" as if it's a panacea. Obviously not realizing that it's just an illusion of difference - in the end you get the "gear" anyway. And if there's no gear - then only people with OCD will play the game to try to get "them all", having no pleasure doin' it, btw.

I hate achievements like "kill 10000 rabbits", and I don't do them. But I know people who did, and they weren't having fun in the process. It was a routine job for them. to login each day, go to the most effective spot and kill some "rabbits".

There's more to WoW than PVE.

Nope. Well, there is of course. But it's like a drop in the ocean. So, nope.

The intentions wasn't to invaldiated gear progression. Merely to highlight the issue it presents, which is that gating content behind a completely different kind of content isn't a good idea. Also, you forgot about leveling. Why is leveling mandatory? You alienate everyone who doesn't like leveling but might enjoy arenas, rbgs, raids, heroic dungeons, challenge mode, ect.

The issue I saw: some guy played the wrong game.
No other issues there. The speed of leveling is constantly increases. One may refuse to level on the principle - but that's just silly.

[RoninaThorstone]

There are all the apples there can be on the market right now. The problem is you want exactly an apple that is also an orange.

No, for the reward. Once you did the achievement and got the reward - you don't do it again. And if you have to on another character - you hate it and whine about "not account wide". You say "achievements" as if it's a panacea. Obviously not realizing that it's just an illusion of difference - in the end you get the "gear" anyway. And if there's no gear - then only people with OCD will play the game to try to get "them all", having no pleasure doin' it, btw.

I hate achievements like "kill 10000 rabbits", and I don't do them. But I know people who did, and they weren't having fun in the process. It was a routine job for them. to login each day, go to the most effective spot and kill some "rabbits".

Nope. Well, there is of course. But it's like a drop in the ocean. So, nope.

The issue I saw: some guy played the wrong game.
No other issues there. The speed of leveling is constantly increases. One may refuse to level on the principle - but that's just silly.

Actually, no... There isn't. The closest thing to what I am describing would be a cross between firefall and EQN.

You are generalizing again. I enjoyed being the first loremaster and the third 'the insane' (back when it took a while). My wife, before she quit, had almost all the minipets. Though to be fair, I did grind her the oozeling. Grinding achievements and titles was the 'fun' of it. Me and this one hunter in my guild kept trying to one up one another in woltk. we were like... 26th and 27th highest on the server when we quit? And neither of us had access to decent arena or raiding guilds at that time. Raiding was pretty much a means to an ends. Not being top 1% of arena team or bleeding edge pve content, mainly achievement stuff.

There are people who play WoW strictly for non pve content.

One may refuse out of boredom as well.

[Razael]

This may sound weird, but sometimes when playing MMOs i set my own achievements and goals, which almost always coincide with some form of reward in game, but not all the time. And that can sometimes feel as rewarding as hearing the sound of an achievement pop, like "Hey, fuck it, i did that, i said i would and i did it." Back when WoW didn't have achievements people felt they were progressing in something regardless of if it included Character Power or not.