[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[RoninaThorstone]

In the end it's a matter of opinion. I don't class it as raiding either, as you just turn up in LFR and basically do as you please, you can just afk and not many care.

If someone wants to think LFR is proper raiding, then fine, have fun in your "raid".

That's like saying easy dungeons aren't dungeons or easy quests aren't quests.

Raiding is a category of content. Difficulty is a variable of that category.

[Delekii]

Well i guess going to a 5 star restaurant and going to macdonalds is also both fine dining

Have fun with that, lfr is not raiding and that's all i really have to say on that as i'm going to go in circles elaborating why it isn't every 3 posts.

You're objectively wrong. There is nothing to elaborate on. You could very easily argue that LFR is a lesser version of raiding, or raiding only in semantics, but nonetheless, LFR is, objectively, raiding.

Your analogy is also patently ridiculous. McDonald's doesn't purport to be a "fine dining" restaurant, that is not the group that they fit in to. Both are, however, restaurants. What you are saying is akin to saying "McDonald's isn't a real restaurant"; that is, in fact, a very apt analogy.

[Tekkommo]

That's like saying easy dungeons aren't dungeons or easy quests aren't quests.

Raiding is a category of content. Difficulty is a variable of that category.

The keyword I used here being "proper" raiding.

I've never said LFR is not raiding, hell, joining a raid group to go attack Stormwind is technically raiding, since you are in a raid group.

[Acidbaron]

Man that's a bad analogy, no they aren't both fine dining but they're both food.

But both are places you can get food. same as both are places you can kill a raid bosses.

If lfr is a raid and by that ignoring or disregarding whatever you prefer the elements that make it a raid, then there's also no difference between food, you have to be consistent then in your reasoning.

[Tekkommo]

Look at it this way, if you applied to a raiding guild, in any game and they asked for your raiding experience and you put in LFR as your experience you would get laughed at and rejected.

[RoninaThorstone]

The keyword I used here being "proper" raiding.

I've never said LFR is not raiding, hell, joining a raid group to go attack Stormwind is technically raiding, since you are in a raid group.

No, it wouldn't be.

Raiding is instanced with player caps and all that jazz. That's why open world events aren't considered raiding (because you can just swarm it with more people till the encounter breaks, usually).

Also, that "proper" bit is the "no true scottsman" fallacy. There is no such thing as "proper raiding".

There's raiding and then there's different sizes and difficulties (which can be defined in terms of population completion percentages).

[Acidbaron]

That's like saying easy dungeons aren't dungeons or easy quests aren't quests.

Raiding is a category of content. Difficulty is a variable of that category.

No, not easy different.

A raid requires,Coordination, some leadership. Planning and logistics.

On top of that higher requirements in terms of out HPS/DPS and survivability. A lot of mechanics aren't present or completely removed even to get rid of any coordination of planning needed.

LFR has was introduced as a preview of the zone and it's bosses and that's what it always will be nothing more, as that's what it targeted at doing. Not to provide you with challenging group content, the entire focus of what a lfr sets out to achieve and what a raid sets out to achieve is different.

final post on this as it's going to turn into a "yes, no game" anyway

[Delekii]

Look at it this way, if you applied to a raiding guild, in any game and they asked for your raiding experience and you put in LFR as your experience you would get laughed at and rejected.

Unless they were a guild that primarily raided in LFR, of course.

[Post]

But both are places you can get food. same as both are places you can kill a raid bosses.

If lfr is a raid and by that ignoring or disregarding whatever you prefer the elements that make it a raid, then there's also no difference between food, you have to be consistent then in your reasoning.

Yeah, both are places you can get food, that doesn't mean they're both fine dining. Your analogy fails because you're acting like I'm saying LFR is the same quality of raiding as heroic and I'm not. They are both raiding, and they are both food, and even though you didn't even say a 2nd place in your awful analogy, they would both be places where you can get food. Quality/difficulty doesn't define what is and isn't raiding.

Look at it this way, if you applied to a raiding guild, in any game and they asked for your raiding experience and you put in LFR as your experience you would get laughed at and rejected.

This isn't really relevant. If you're new to the game you can raid LFR without doing an attunement, in Wildstar you cannot. It's that simple.

[Tekkommo]

Unless they were a guild that primarily raided in LFR, of course.

If said guilds exist, why the hell would you have to apply to them?

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This isn't really relevant. If you're new to the game you can raid LFR without doing an attunement, in Wildstar you cannot. It's that simple.

So what is it exactly you don't like about the WS attunement?

[RoninaThorstone]

A raid requires,Coordination, some leadership. Planning and logistics.

That's an opinion.

The term "raid" doesn't include those.

What if everyone already knows the fights? They don't need planning, logistics, leadership, or coordination. They just go in and do what they memorized.
Does that make it "no longer a raid"?

A raid is simply a large group of players, typically 8 or more, in an instanced zone facing a challenge (which may or may not be difficult).

That's really all you can say about it without venturing into opinion because the definition becomes too wobbly when you try to narrow it down.

[Delekii]

If said guilds exist, why the hell would you have to apply to them?

Because without the interaction of words, it is difficult for people with the capacity to invite others to their guild to know who exactly wants to be invited?

I realise it's hard for you to accept, or perhaps even hard to perceive, but there are many players - the vast majority, in fact, who never set foot in a raid above flex in MoP. Of that, there is a very large subsection that never went above LFR.

What you subjectively believe isn't really relevant to the objective distinction of what a raid is.

[Tekkommo]

I realise it's hard for you to accept, or perhaps even hard to perceive, but there are many players - the vast majority, in fact, who never set foot in a raid above flex in MoP. Of that, there is a very large subsection that never went above LFR.

Why would I not realise that or accept that? That's got nothing to do with what I am saying.

[Post]

So what is it exactly you don't like about the WS attunement?

As I said:

It's not specifically the steps, it's the fact that there's a long ass barrier of things before you can raid. Maybe it'd be fine if it was just buy key, kill soloable boss, go in. I'd still think it's pointless, but it wouldn't be as silly as it is now.

[Delekii]

Why would I not realise that or accept that? That's got nothing to do with what I am saying.

What you are saying is that without meeting your subjective definition of raiding, people are not, in fact, doing "proper" raiding.

What I am saying is that your subjective definition has meaning only to you.

[Tekkommo]

As I said:

Sorry missed that, I can see you edited it in

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What you are saying is that without meeting your subjective definition of raiding, people are not, in fact, doing "proper" raiding.

What I am saying is that your subjective definition has meaning only to you.

Did I say otherwise? I don't remember stating anything as fact and everyone should agree to it. I said somewhere in a post above that it's a matter of opinion.

If you want to do LFR and call yourself a raider, that's your choice. You'll get laughed at, but hey, it's up to you.

[Post]

Sorry missed that, I can see you edited it in

Oh, yeah my bad. I always feel weird about making posts too close together so I edit in responses after sometimes.

[Kelimbror]

Did I say otherwise? I don't remember stating anything as fact and everyone should agree to it. I said somewhere in a post above that it's a matter of opinion.

You are trying to argue semantics and labeling via your own subjective bias. Whether you openly state it's 'your opinion' or not, it's irrelevant. No true Scotsman, as was pointed out before. Raiding is raiding. That's objective and inarguable, regardless how many people futilely try.

[Deleted]

Not sure why you're asking questions on a forum if you're not going to accept the answers you are given.

Do I really need to explain how this works to you? Looking at your post count it feels like you should know
how the forum community works by now.

I prefer several opinions/answers to my question before making a decision or judgement.

Guess we are different

[Acidbaron]

That's an opinion.

The term "raid" doesn't include those.

What if everyone already knows the fights? They don't need planning, logistics, leadership, or coordination. They just go in and do what they memorized.
Does that make it "no longer a raid"?

A raid is simply a large group of players, typically 8 or more, in an instanced zone facing a challenge (which may or may not be difficult).

That's really all you can say about it without venturing into opinion because the definition becomes too wobbly when you try to narrow it down.

Then we start into the discussion of what a raid means as with all internet and gaming terminology it's heavily open to interpretation and personal definition, to me it always meant that from early 2000 to now, those are basic elements that make a raid anything else is just large group content, coordination and communication are crucial to what makes a raid a raid, otherwise you're not actively involved in the process and just a long for the ride as if you were watching a movie.