Could we be going back to 10's and 25's separate lockouts?

[Deleted]

give back weekly raid Quests plz for T11 content (T12 + T11 when T13 hits live)

[MrExcelion]

As others mentioned in this thread, having heroic and normal on separate locks would make a lot of sense and be a good compromise. Like I've run heroic FL for several resets now and have nothing to gain from normal....reputation and legendary quest items not withstanding.

Though on the other hand, having a full heroic only instance takes away flexibility from the raiding guild of what heroic to tackle if there's any sort of gating..for example, in BWD, you'd have to kill Omnotron and Magmaw heroic before attempting the other 3, whereas now guilds have the freedom to do Chim, Maloriak, or Atramedes if they so please. It'd be unfortunate to limit them in this fashion, so it'd be up to Blizzard to design the raid instances in a certain fashion to mitigate this or keep the difficulty progressive.

I don't have a particularly strong opinion about this, but I do think one thing that kept the subscriber counts up during Wrath was the extra "content" created by the ability to run extra lockouts and doing the Emblem of Frost daily everyday. I wouldn't want to return to that anymore....but it did keep people busy and logging in at least.

I personally wish that the BH bosses were on a 3 day or less lockout. Didn't take too long to buy the tier legs with VP but I'd definitely run it for fun. Just some sort of puggable raid boss encounter I can jump into for 15 minutes is nice.

[Deleted]

"The shared 10 and 25 man lockout has had both positive and negative effects, it solved the need to do both every week but removed some extra content that could be done every week. Some changes will be made in the future to make everyone happier with the solution."

I wonder...

Same quality loot? 2 Lockouts? Kill the 10-man guilds?
Not gonna happen.

[Jenerena]

I really hope they don't. I've raided 10 man since I started WoW, and as a guild, we've never wanted to expand and be 25 man. Tried it and failed. However I represent a small portion of the population being one of the very few 10 man strict guilds that killed LK heroic back in the day. I was actually very surprised, but of course ecstatic when they changed the lockouts. It seemed a bit unfair to us that we got worse loot because we preferred to play with 10 people but there were so few people actually raiding 10 man strict. I guess that was why they changed it.

To be honest though, I still see 25 man and 10 man being two separate games completely. For that reason loot shouldn't really be an issue. We didn't need 25 man gear to kill 10 man heroics, so why does it matter? Well what annoyed us was the fact that 25 man raiders could raid 10 man once a week also and get the gear from there. For us, we were still wearing 245s when gathering new 251s. 25 man raiders could have 258s, 251s and 264s, making 25 man a little easier to tackle because they had more access to good itemised gear.

I also HATED the fact that we couldn't get legendaries or cool mounts. Basically the game was balanced around preventing 25 man raiders to 'take the piss', and all that did was just pissed all over the 10 man raiders anyway.

I don't think the new system is excellent though...now a lot guilds are raiding 10 man 25 man is now looking less tempting. I think they've gone maybe a bit too far in the other direction.

[Deleted]

10 man loot ilevel x
25man loot ilevel x+3
3 ilevels when we are now at 500+ ilevel will be such a negligable gain however means blizzard can now justify 25's being "Harder" and means 10 man heroic loot is beter than 25 normal loot and also means if there is a Raggy type normal boss with +6 ilevels it's normal 10 loot is above 25 normal non-endboss loot.

also with seperate lockouts, but to balance the ilevel differance 10 mans and 25's now reward the same amount of Valor.

[Gritalian]

I'd be happy with a 4 day lockout period... with a hard reset every Tuesday. Let guilds reset manually once every week, after the 2nd lockout you can't reclear till Tuesday.

My guild was a 25m guild that did 10m on weekends, but we lost about 7 healers in a 3 week span in the beginning of Cata who simply just stopped playing after we got Defender (they are still in the guild). With only really 2 competitive Ally guilds on our server (One other guild and us), it was really hard to recruit capable players who were even close to our level of content... which unfortunately wasn't anything ground breaking at the time (nothing like top 50 US, etc.) It's been roughly 8 months since then, and our server is dying more and more on a daily basis. I think the previously mentioned alliance guild we "compete" with is the only other guild that has downed regular Ragnaros... we did it on day 2 of it being released and they did it 3 weeks ago.

Point I'm getting at, my guild is now 10m, built around 70% of us who have been together since TBC, 2 from Wrath and one from beginning of Cata, and I enjoyed 10m/25m raid lock outs in ICC more-so because it gave me something to do on a Sunday night after football... Now I just wish I didn't have to wait 4 days to raid again.

[Pivotpony]

I would not mind to have it like it was at the start of wrath. 25man is heroic, and 10man is normal.

[Deleted]

Honestly I think they might be drifting towards the 15m instances - it's come up a lot lately as a sort of 'happy medium' size. Only having one size again would end one storm of arguments over it, and mean they could focus on tuning an encounter, rather than on two flavours of it.

I'm half-hoping they go this way, in all honesty. And normal modes back to WotLK levels, keeping Cata hardmodes. That, to me, covers the widest base of players, therefore keeps the most people happy and occupied.

Planning to wait and see, though

[Dizsko]

1. Seperate lockouts again so i can pug stuff. Maybe the LFD in 4.3 will fix the lack of puggable raids.

2. The raid week actually started on a sunday or monday then people like myself who work shifts can have a full lockout for progression etc

[Deleted]

Honestly I think they might be drifting towards the 15m instances - it's come up a lot lately as a sort of 'happy medium' size. Only having one size again would end one storm of arguments over it, and mean they could focus on tuning an encounter, rather than on two flavours of it.

I'm half-hoping they go this way, in all honesty. And normal modes back to WotLK levels, keeping Cata hardmodes. That, to me, covers the widest base of players, therefore keeps the most people happy and occupied.

Planning to wait and see, though

sorry but 15 is not a happy medium it's just that with 15 you can be "gaurenteed" to ahve all raid buffs while at 10 you can't also having 15 alows for it to drop another piece of loot so instead of 2 loot per boss in 10 man it's 3 loot per boss in 15 man and means they can 'be generous' and give a 2nd tier token from those bosses. taking them to 5 drops from a tier boss instead of 3 .

i am hoping it becomes 15 and 30 but i dought they will add 5 to the 25's so probably 15 and 25.

[Magisleeper]

Agreed. I just feel like if they did allow the 10/25 Man lockouts once again, then running 25 Mans would just be extremely mandatory and otherwise only creates a larger gap between what people 'feel' like what they should do and 'want' to do.

People say they want the lockouts, but I definitely think that when it comes down to it...It'll only cause a headache.

Once againt this view is essentially flawed in the fact that nobody requires anyone to run 10 an 25 man content. The opinion expressed is essentially that you want there to be only enough content for the time you allot for gametime, and beyond that nobody else should be able to play the game because you dont have time.

Nobody is requiring you to complete 10/25 lockouts but your desire to stay cutting edge regardless of time played is placing restrictions on other players who may have more time to play than you do. If this logic was followed then the game would consist of an option to immediatly level to 85 with a full set of the previous tier's gear, kind of like the PTR equips you with. Then people would only have to spend time clearing the raid bosses once a week and it would take 4 hours tops.

[Deleted]

Yer, but at the same time without making people feel obligated to do both 25 and 10 mans. So 10 and 25 man should have the SAME items, but with 10 mans having lower item level items.

[Magisleeper]

I really hope they don't. I've raided 10 man since I started WoW, and as a guild, we've never wanted to expand and be 25 man. Tried it and failed. However I represent a small portion of the population being one of the very few 10 man strict guilds that killed LK heroic back in the day. I was actually very surprised, but of course ecstatic when they changed the lockouts. It seemed a bit unfair to us that we got worse loot because we preferred to play with 10 people but there were so few people actually raiding 10 man strict. I guess that was why they changed it.

To be honest though, I still see 25 man and 10 man being two separate games completely. For that reason loot shouldn't really be an issue. We didn't need 25 man gear to kill 10 man heroics, so why does it matter? Well what annoyed us was the fact that 25 man raiders could raid 10 man once a week also and get the gear from there. For us, we were still wearing 245s when gathering new 251s. 25 man raiders could have 258s, 251s and 264s, making 25 man a little easier to tackle because they had more access to good itemised gear.

I also HATED the fact that we couldn't get legendaries or cool mounts. Basically the game was balanced around preventing 25 man raiders to 'take the piss', and all that did was just pissed all over the 10 man raiders anyway.

I don't think the new system is excellent though...now a lot guilds are raiding 10 man 25 man is now looking less tempting. I think they've gone maybe a bit too far in the other direction.

The whole point of 10 mans getting different loot was because 10 people are fundamentally easier to organize towards a common goal than 25 people are. Not to mention LK 10 mans were balanced towards being easier to accomplish for 10 mans and more difficult for 25 mans. The point was for 10 mans to be easier to organize, easier to direct and easier to kill bosses in. Thats why LK 10 mans got slightly lesser loot than 25s did.

The shared everything between 10 and 25 mans created a raiding environment where unless you are very hardcore the easiest path to the best loot and the server firsts/highest place on progression was to form a 10 man; Not because you enjoyed raiding with 10 people but because it was more difficult to do otherwise, and your choices as far as 25 man guilds continue to decrese. As far as progression goes I saw servers with 10-15 respectable 25 man guilds devolve into a ton of 10 mans and only a few selective elite 25 mans.

There is a difference between doing what you enjoy and imposing it on others. If you only raided because you enjoyed playing 10 mans why do you care what the 25 man raiders get for loot?

[Tapzer]

As long as they make 10 man and 25 man gear the same. I dont have a problem with it.

[Magisleeper]

Yer, but at the same time without making people feel obligated to do both 25 and 10 mans. So 10 and 25 man should have the SAME items, but with 10 mans having lower item level items.

I can pretty much say with ~90 percent certainty that anyone who feels obligated to run both 10 and 25 man raids isnt actually pushing 25 man progression and is just happy they can run one 10 man a week and keep pace with the people pushing 25 man content. Besides like I have said before if people advocating 10 mans play because they enjoy 10 mans more why do they care what 25 man raiders get for loot? Unless they are intending to apply to a 25 man guild why should they care if the 25 man raiders have different gear than they do.

---------- Post added 2011-08-23 at 02:54 AM ----------

As long as they make 10 man and 25 man gear the same. I dont have a problem with it.

Please see bolded section.

[Cassidin]

Yer, but at the same time without making people feel obligated to do both 25 and 10 mans. So 10 and 25 man should have the SAME items, but with 10 mans having lower item level items.

Never understood this tbh as 25 man is OFTEN (not always I know) easier and definately more forgiving than 10 man. In 25 man someone who stands in the fire can be carried etc. A Healer down in 25 man is an inconvenience, a healer down in 10 man is dangerous etc. The only thing that (usually) is harder in 25 man raids is the getting people together in the first place.

I dont see why 25 man raids should be rewarded with better gear for an easier gameplay.

(and yes, as I said I DO know that sometimes 25 man fights are harder - but not often)

[Magisleeper]

Never understood this tbh as 25 man is OFTEN (not always I know) easier and definately more forgiving than 10 man. In 25 man someone who stands in the fire can be carried etc. A Healer down in 25 man is an inconvenience, a healer down in 10 man is dangerous etc. The only thing that (usually) is harder in 25 man raids is the getting people together in the first place.

I dont see why 25 man raids should be rewarded with better gear for an easier gameplay.

(and yes, as I said I DO know that sometimes 25 man fights are harder - but not often)

Which game are you playing btw, it sounds fun, can I get a link?

[Deleted]

If they separate lockouts and keep loot the same then any serious 25-man raiders will be required to run both raid sizes in a week, not doing so would basically halve your gear progression rate, which just wouldn't be acceptable to a serious raiding group. 10-man raiders would be conversely incentivised to form shaky alliances or PuGs to enable them to run 25-man content to help them in the same manner.

Neither of these seems like a good thing, and that doesn't even begin to cover the burnout that running the same content multiple times per week on the same characters brings.

Shared lockout is the only thing that makes equal loot acceptable.

[thsoern]

I cant really imagine that they'll seperate raidsizes again. If they would, they cannot adhere to the equal loot attitude. Giving 25mans better loot again? Just look how many 10mans are out there. There is no wai, that they will go back to the wotlk way. It would kill alot of raiding groups/guilds.

[Aqua]

One can only dream...