Firelands isnt handholding... And i like it that way

[Sinea]

*This thread is coming from the Point of view of an "average-raider"... Not the average person on MMO-champion, but the average raider of WoW (Who would probably be about halfway through firelands right now, an average raider who posts on mmo-champion probably has rag down...*

Throughout all of patch 4.0's raids the bosses were pretty much "Do what your supposed to do, and the boss will go down no matter what".
For example, there wasn't a single fight in 4.0 or even all of 3.1,3.2 and 3.3 (IN REGULAR) except for end bosses that required serious effort...
Maloriak: From a DPS PoV, Kill boss and stack/spread when instructed... switch to adds..... p2.... if everyone pulled a small 10k dps (which wasnt TOOOO bad at the time...) and the healers could sustain 9k hps over the last phase then he would be dead...

I like to compare Maloriak to Beth'tilac in difficulty in comparison to the rest of the raid... there are easier bosses and theyre are harder bosses (although beth and Mal are both closer to the easiest than the hardest)
During Phase two (Call me bad but w/e) EVERY Healer and DPS has to try their hardest to get the boss down before you literally become overpowered...
Sure, if you have a full team if Pro raiders with some already 272 gear from BoT/BWD/throne heroics than im sure Beth diddnt pose much of a threat...

Comparing Beth and the other bosses of firelands to maloriak and the rest of 4.0's raids i have to say that Firelands is by no means Handholding (Excluding Shannox) and I personally enjoy it much more that way. If your guild isnt pulling the right hps/dps than they simply wont down the boss they want to kill, unlike 4.1 where the only TRUE dps races were the 1.5 minute long ascendant burn, the 2 minute long cho'gall burn, and neferian's phase three which was fairly handleable.

I am just curious about how people feel about Fireland's difficulty in comparison to 4.0s... Do you like the added difficulty or not, and do you actually think its harder?

[Mudkiper]

Are you refering to normal or heroic? Normal is just as easy as the previous tiers imo. Heroic is harder and ragnaros heroic is much harder.. which is fine by me.

[Sinea]

Talking about regular.... and keep in mind i said from the PoV of the Average wow raider who hasnt downed rag yet... From the point of view of a more Highend raider, yes its ALL easy and nobody should give them any thought

[Propane]

The pre-nerf 4.0 raids were probably about the same difficulty as normal mode firelands, so I have no poll option to select. (assuming you weren't over gearing 4.0)

The hard modes for Firelands seem slightly harder, and Rag heroic is much harder than anything else, but that's to be expected from a tier with fewer bosses.

[Penguin FTW]

I think Council/Al'Akir was harder than 6/7 heroic, but maybe that's just me

[Sinea]

Personally i just rarely found a time in 4.0 when i pretty much had to push my top dps and the healers HAD to pull their top HPS in order to survive, where as im faced w/ this situation alot in firelands.

[timoseewho]

I think Firelands is fine the way it is, regular and heroic, if only they squeezed in 2 or maybe even 3 more bosses.

[Whoopsa]

Talking about regular.... and keep in mind i said from the PoV of the Average wow raider who hasnt downed rag yet... From the point of view of a more Highend raider, yes its ALL easy and nobody should give them any thought

I hate to have to go into this, but if you're only 4/7 normal mode by this point, you're not a raider. Not even a casual raider at this point. 4/7 normal mode by now is probably just a pugger.

That aside, I think you're just arbitrarily comparing things. Numbers-wise, the normal mode phase 2 of Beth'tilac is much less hectic of a burn phase than Maloriak's last phase. Literally all the entire raid does is stand there and DPS/heal for 2-3 minutes with an occasional tank switch. Healing gets hairy at the end, sure, but when the majority of you raid can ignore everything else and just pound out DPS for a few minutes, that doesn't make a hard fight. Compare this to the magma jets and frost orbs on Maloriak. Each person in the raid needs to do a lot more than sit there and play their class effectively.

Honestly if you compare normal mode T11 and T12, T12 is ridiculously simple with the exception of Rhyolith driving and Baleroc healing. There are no super complex fights like Halfus (which, while easy, had more going on than 2 dogs to burn down and traps to stay out of) or Omnitron. DPS and healing requirements are, of course, much higher in T12 than T11, but that's because T11 normal modes were balanced around being in 346 blues while T12 assumes 359 epics.

Edit: I should add that maybe what you're seeing is that T11 was much more focused on staying out of fire, while a majority of T12 has tight DPS tuning (which forces you to bring less healers, thus making healing harder as well). However, if something like Beth'tilac is giving you DPS trouble from people with at least 359 ilvl, it's probably just a L2P issue.

[Daoloth]

The 4.2 normal modes were easier imo than the 4.0 ones, but I guess that's because of the gear we had back then instead of what we had when 4.2 hit. I have to say though that I much prefer the 4.0 heroic mode difficulty to 4.2. In 4.0 every boss was somewhat challenging (well maybe not Halfus), especially bosses like Cho'gall, Nefarian, Al'akir, Ascendant Council and Sinestra.

Now we have 4 semi-easy bosses (6 on 10man), 2 challenging and one boss of insane difficulty. I would've liked the first 6 (I'm doing 10man) bosses to be harder.
I think Firelands got boring pretty fast 'cause the first 6 bosses are too easy compared to Ragnaros. Unless you're progressing on hc Ragnaros it's easy to clear the whole instance in less than 3 hours, even when doing 6/7 hc.

Having said that I voted for the 4.0 level of difficulty.

[Myrkur]

The pre-nerf 4.0 raids were probably about the same difficulty as normal mode firelands, so I have no poll option to select. (assuming you weren't over gearing 4.0)

The hard modes for Firelands seem slightly harder, and Rag heroic is much harder than anything else, but that's to be expected from a tier with fewer bosses.

I agree with this post entirely. Although I think Firelands has a better Heroic Boss Progression Path available than Tier 11 did, but the difficulty feels about the same.

[iceberg265]

I can't really tell how they compare because my entire raid is mentally checked out waiting for SWTOR. We down far less bosses than we should because no one cares anymore.

[timbli]

I hate to have to go into this, but if you're only 4/7 normal mode by this point, you're not a raider. Not even a casual raider at this point. 4/7 normal mode by now is probably just a pugger.

from 95 guilds in my realm, 33 of them are 4/7 or less. We're 6/7 and we still can't kill ragnaros. (a bit of raid setup problems, but we're fine now and probably Ragnaros will be down this week)
in other realm i play, 59 guilds, 35 of them are 4/7 or less... we're starting a raid group with friends (i need to level up to 85)

you're just an "#%&#$%&" elitist jerk. Maybe pro-raiders are killing heroic bosses now, but casual raiders are jsut killing bosses in normal mode. Hate people like you. We have a person in our raid just like you. "i cannot understand why you can't avoid the fire, avoid the spells, etc" blah! you need practice, and some people need more practice than others. In Ragnaros, always at least one people made a mistake (i.e. not avoiding fire, cannot avoid the balls from Ragnaros, etc) and we need to start over again and again, but we think Ragnaros will be killed this week.



IMO, it's a bit harder. but not soo much. You need proper gear to do the fights without problems. Bethilac was harder than other bosses because we didn't have enough gear (took us a whole week kill this boss) Shannox died in just a couple of hours.

[Whoopsa]

you're just an "#%&#$%&" elitist jerk. from 95 guilds in my realm, 33 of them are 4/7 or less. We're 6/7 and we still can't kill ragnaros. (a bit of raid setup problems, but we're fine now and probably Ragnaros will be down this week)

in other realm i play, 59 guilds, 35 of them are 4/7 or less... we're starting a raid group with friends (i need to level up to 85)



IMO, it's a bit harder. but not soo much. You need proper gear to do the fights without problems, without proper gear it's hard, but fun.

I define a raider as someone that consistently goes into the latest tier of raids with more or less the same group of people on a semi-regular basis. If you've been in there each week even only for a couple hours a week since 4.2 hit, you should be past the first 5. Ragnaros is a hard boss, even on normal mode, but I wouldn't call someone that does one RBG in a pug every couple weeks a PvPer, just like I wouldn't call someone that isn't up to Domo or Rag by now a raider. I only brought it up because someone that doesn't raid hardly at all hasn't even seen the fights enough to judge difficulty in much of a meaningful way, especially compared to the previous tier in which OP probably never killed each of those bosses more than 3 or 4 times.

[Trigg]

i resent you saying normal BWD and BoT is easimode! it was bloody hard at first in blues! :P

[Tyllis]

I'm not convinced that Firelands is noticably more difficult than T11 was back in January/February. Due to have of our former raid group quitting a few weeks before 4.2 and the big struggle we had finding competent replacements, we've really only been raiding FL as a guild for two weeks (killing Shannox a couple times with fail pugs doesn't count). We cleared four bosses last week, and repeating the feat this week only took 1.5 hours and a single wipe. I suspect it will be much quicker for us to get 6/7 than it took to get 11/12, although Ragnaros is probably more difficult than Nef.

[xrobar]

I can't really tell how they compare because my entire raid is mentally checked out waiting for SWTOR. We down far less bosses than we should because no one cares anymore.

Lol are you in my raid group cause thats how we all feel too
Edit: and firelands just isnt fun... i dont get the purpose of long drawn out fights.. if i wipe on rag in p3 again im going to quit

[zythian]

I needed an option that said "I wish every fight approached H rag's difficulty"

I really enjoyed the hardest hard modes in 4.0 and I loved H Rag... the rest of the instance really fell short. (When I say I loved H rag... we had a love/hate relationship)