"Hard modes dont count"

[Maven]

They didn't introduce "Hard mode", they introduced "Normal mode".

/thread.

[Taros]

line up each raid teir with the teir from a previous expanion
IE

T4 = T7, T11
T5 = T8

etc

Kara was deff harder then Naxx and BoT, BWD normal

SSC and TK were harder then every raid in WotLK except ICC which i would say was on PAR with

I gotta say dude, in TBC I pugged Kara and destroyed it not long after it's release. I am also not a hardcore raider or even care about such matters and was wearing blues and a few greens.

[Gron]

We expect Boss encounters to combine 3 aspects :
- unique artwork ;
- lore / story of the character ;
- fight mechanisms ;

When evaluating originality of a whole expansion's bosses, hard modes almost don't count because artwork and lore are the same, and fight mechanisms are a variation more than a completely new fight. However when measuring guild progression, and "replayability" of the game, hard modes do count.

Yes, great point.
What I would add is that in general if you feel the game is getting old, its also because of the re-use of boss mechanics/codes in fights (don't stand in fire, etc) from earlier bosses. I think people burn out faster with game content in general, when they don't see the novelty of the game. Most novelty in Cataclysm was blown when you levelled from 80 to 85, which happened in first 2 months. The remaining years of Cataclysm is about raids, that doesn't bring a lot of new surprises for players.

[Sylviane]

Hard modes count as much as you want them to. I'm content killing 12/12 and 7/7 and a handful of heroic bosses, knowing damn well I likely won't see Sinestra until 4.3, and may never have a real crack at Heroic Ragnaros. I mean, I'd like my guild to clear everything, but we only raid 2 nights a week and that's the schedule I prefer anyway.

So yeah, of course they count. And no, I don't believe that they should be renamed. There are only 3 guilds with more than 1/7 HC on my server, one of which is 6/7. Only 10 are 1/7 (and I'm fortunate enough to be in one). What *does* seem to be true is that 6/7 HC isn't incredibly difficult for top-flight players, but Heroic Ragnaros is on (literally) a different plane of existence.

I still don't like the idea of "easy mode" raids. A small raid finder buff is fine, as is nerfing the previous tier.

[armone]

Some people feel like Hard modes don't count and that if you finish normal modes, you have completed the content for that tier.

Some people? Who are these people exactly? Be specific.

What do you mean by 'count'? World Rankings? Personal achievement?

The top guilds in the world finish normal modes AND hard modes before all other guilds.
These top guilds consider the end-wing hard mode encounters the finish line, not normal mode
end-wings.

I would assume this group of people ("some people", as you put it) are not in these world class
guilds. So even if you mean 'count' as in world rankings, "some people" would still do poorly
in comparison. If "some people" define 'count' as in a personal achievement, then when they
finish the content has no outside relevance.

[sivenom]

Some people? Who are these people exactly? Be specific.

What do you mean by 'count'? World Rankings? Personal achievement?

The top guilds in the world finish normal modes AND hard modes before all other guilds.
These top guilds consider the end-wing hard mode encounters the finish line, not normal mode
end-wings.

I would assume this group of people ("some people", as you put it) are not in these world class
guilds. So even if you mean 'count' as in world rankings, "some people" would still do poorly
in comparison. If "some people" define 'count' as in a personal achievement, then when they
finish the content has no outside relevance.

So, you see the point in anecdotal evidence? "Some people" typically, and don't quote me on this, mean the general populace.

I've met people I know and some I don't that have no interest in heroic, and some that do. By name? You are not privileged to know. I can say though that those some people vary in background and nature and each represent a portion of the general populace.

By selecting your sample set from top end guilds, you take only the top 5 so percentile of the populace.

Your "some people" can be a good representation of the top 5th percentile, whereas my "some people", though a small sample, is a good representation as a whole.
In the end, guess what buddy? They all agree on the system being flawed even if they cannot agree on why.

And that was only my remark on your "some people" smoot.
As for world v achievement, that was open to interpretation. It could also mean personal achievement which is something you have no bearing on which to comment.

Though granted this whole thread is open to interpretation, my words count as well.

/bubblepipe
Carry on, gentlemen.

[iamdisappoint]

They didn't introduce "Hard mode", they introduced "Normal mode".

/thread.

That is an acceptable statement, so is 'normal modes don't count' OR 'heroic modes don't count' ... all 3 statements are based off the same core ... changing difficulty =/= new content ... it doesn't double the raid bosses. So however you want to view it ... different levels of difficulty do not count as more content ... just more time filler, especially with the gating for those who would prefer to do H mode the first week ... which blizz doesn't like, shutting that guild down who faction tranferred to get it done (which is another issue of blizz wanting to micromanage how you have fun, where, and when ... freedom is slavery!)

[Deleted]

I only finished the normal content and didnt really bother with the heroic version mostly because after we finished the normal content the guild fell apart. however, I would never say hardmodes dont count. I'd like to experience them sooner or later but for now i am happy with beating the normal content.

[Grimlair]

Personally im happy with just seeing normal mode dont really need to do same content just with more hp an dmg but meh thats just my 2 copper

[Seezer]

Here's the only thing I see that's kinda...a moot argument. "People who say hard-modes don't count are just baddies who can't complete them!". Um....okay? That's what we call a superiority complex that just so happens to be harbored by most gamers sitting behind their computer screen with clothes pins on their eyelids so they never blink. Once a guild gets on a roll....they complete the said tier of content, and then complete the heroic mode. The heroic mode actually grants comparable gear the the next tier of content. So when they go in and do normal mode for the following tier....guess what? It's EASY mode compared to guilds in prior normal mode gear attempting current normal mode gear. Gear difference for people raiding normal modes = ONE tier. Gear difference for those completing heroic modes = HALF a tier. So of course those who complete them every tier, are able to do them the next. Thus, why I say - Heroic mode becomes vanity. Guilds who want a challenge, get a challenge...and they can get cool mounts, achievements, and just....a feeling of accomplishment. Heroic mode gear? Just makes the next tier of gear kind of....blech. Grind out heroic mode content till everyone is decked out in gear 6 ilvls below next tier content. Then hop on PTR to grind out the fights so that when it hits live, you can breeze through it. That is what I call easy mode.

And yet, people like you have your own superiority complex. Thinking that every hardcore raider is some neckbeard behind their computer with clothespins on their eyes so they never blink. HM gear is not for vanity. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that hard mode guilds aren't farming normals. So they got their HM gear from the previous tier, clear normals, and start progressing through HM's. HM gear for HM encounters. Just like 359 gear was for T12 normals. And guess what? That boss mod that tells you when to move out of a fire, is made by those guys on PTR so it can trivialize an encounter for you. So you can thank them.

Again, if you've raided HM's, besides the 30% ICC HM's, you would know that there is a significant jump in difficulty from normals on most, not all hardmode encounters.

"That is what I call easy mode"-pure ignorance.

[Fenixhart]

Actually yes. He runs away in normal mode...on heroic he gets pull out and is forced to confront you when he tries to flee.

Which is currently the only Heroic mode that has a diffence in narration.

But as it stands, right now Heroics are bigger numbers with more tricks, but Ragnaros had an entirely different phase, which is something heroic modes didn't tend to throw out.

To me, that seems like it would amke more sense. Instead of bigger numbers with more tricks, a new phase (with maybe a little more tricks just to differentiate the two) helps establish the idea that "they ain't dicking around no mo'"

[armone]

So, you see the point in anecdotal evidence? "Some people" typically, and don't quote me on this, mean the general populace.

I've met people I know and some I don't that have no interest in heroic, and some that do. By name? You are not privileged to know. I can say though that those some people vary in background and nature and each represent a portion of the general populace.

By selecting your sample set from top end guilds, you take only the top 5 so percentile of the populace.

Your "some people" can be a good representation of the top 5th percentile, whereas my "some people", though a small sample, is a good representation as a whole.
In the end, guess what buddy? They all agree on the system being flawed even if they cannot agree on why.

And that was only my remark on your "some people" smoot.
As for world v achievement, that was open to interpretation. It could also mean personal achievement which is something you have no bearing on which to comment.

Though granted this whole thread is open to interpretation, my words count as well.

/bubblepipe
Carry on, gentlemen.

Hey, Buddy,

I believe you missed the point of my post.

My point was to show that these "some people" the original poster talks about are the more casually oriented players. When I asked him to define
"some players", I wanted him just to say it: casuals. I didn't need a lesson on the nature of anecdotal evidence, but thanks for the condescension.

In my opinion, if these players truly only care about finishing normal content and calling it quits, then there is no point in talking about whether only normal modes 'count'. If 'count' refers to world rankings, these players will still lose the race to the top 5% anyway, or if 'count' refers to a non-competitive personal satisfaction, these casual players could kill a lore figure an expansion later and still feel satisfied, in which case the definition of 'count' would vary so widely that it isn't worth arguing.

The OP didn't define 'count'. I personally think he is referring to world first kills. In which case, as I said above, I don't think it matters, because players who value normal mode difficulty will still be beaten by Paragon in normal mode difficulty.

[Deleted]

if you removed all normal modes and used the current hardmodes as normal modes instead and made a harder version of the encounter to be called hardmode instead, the new normal modes would be easy i think rofl