Are fire mages complex?

[Deleted]

1. The spec is in a terrible state outside alysrazor.

2. Arcane is more complex than fire by miles. Not because of the amount of buttons, but because you gotta continiously make decisions on what to do.

[Ssateneth]

I've just heard from various people and stateofdps shows frost pretty close to the bottom...

Thanks guys for the help I'll definitely give fire a shot!

It's at the bottom because nobody with skill and gear plays it. They all play arcane, and sometimes fire on gimmick fights.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Fire is the easiest mage spec
Arcane is the hardest brain-wise
Frost is the hardest reaction-wise

[Imnick]

Fire and Arcane are both piss easy, Frost is the only remotely complex one and even then it's more just reaction times

[Koltak]

Here is a quick overview of the three specs (without going too deep), so you can judge the complexity of them yourself:

Fire:
Standard rotation:
Spam Fireball when static or Scorch on the move
Refresh Living Bomb (DoT) once it explodes
Hit Pyroblast when it procs

Cooldowns:
Flame Orb whenever it's up ( 1 min )
Combustion if you are lucky with crits/big DoT ( 2 min )

The only complexity comes from the right usage of Combustion, which is when your DoTs are high.
Highly rng dependent.
With Cauterize, you can ignore some boss mechanics.

Frost:
Standard rotation:
Spam Frostbolt, Ice Lance for movement
Hit Ice Lance on proc
Hit Frostfirebolt on proc

Cooldowns:
Freeze (Water Elemental) on cooldown (30s)
Deep Freeze on cooldown (30s) used in combination with Freeze to guarantee the necessary Fingers of Frost proc
Frostfire Orb on cooldown (1 min) tends to proc several Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze
Icy Veins basically on cooldown (~2 min)
Cold Snap ( 6,4 min )

The complex thing about frost are its fast casts with many instants, sometimes several without pause.
Also, you sometimes have to watch your pet.
Cold Snap is used once per fight, allowing two FFO and two DF.


Arcane:
Standard rotation:
Arcane Blast until you have lost enough mana
Arcane Missiles (when up)/Missile Barrage to clear the stack

Cooldowns:
Mage Ward ( 30s )
Flame orb ( 1 min )
Presence of Mind ( 1,4 min )
Arcane Power ( 1,4 min )
Mana Gem ( 2 min )
Evocation ( 2 min ) - usage: see "Phases"

The complexity comes from managing mana and staying where you have to stay.
Without spells you can use on the move it is important to stay where you have to stay and minimalizing travel time.
Mage Ward and Flame Orb allow mini burst phases, where you spam Arcane Blast, until the spellpower buff wears off or you have lost the right amount of mana.

Phases:
Burn:
When Arcane Power and Mana Gem (and trinket) are ready, you spam Arcane Blast until ~35% mana, evocate close to 100%
Conserve:
You try to stay as close to 100% without letting any mana regeneration going to waste.
Optional: Mini burst with the usage of Flame Orb and/or Mage Ward


Afterword:
No mage spec is really hard once you are used to it, but neither are other specs in the game.

[skylla05]

Sure, everything in this game is complex if basic situational awareness and watching timers is hard for you.

[Cebel]

So I've been lookin for a caster with a decently complex rotation/priority list. Shadow priests are meh and so are warlocks (yes I know both are complex). I refuse to play a 1 button arcane mage, and I know frost just isn't viable as a dps spec. How is fire though? I tried it once before and it seemed pretty interesting, this was pre cataclysm. I know its competitive as well putting out pretty good numbers, but, is the rotation complex and interesting? Does it keep you on your toes? Are there a good amount of buttons to press? Thanks!

the fact that you think arcane is simply a 1 button spec shows leads me to believe you should just roll a different class.

---------- Post added 2011-09-01 at 03:15 PM ----------

I've just heard from various people and stateofdps shows frost pretty close to the bottom...

Thanks guys for the help I'll definitely give fire a shot!

stateofdps has no data from t12, stateofdps is stupid and a waste of your time. Frost is 2nd highest single target DPS right now for mages, fire sucks for anything other than alys

[Karazee]

Fire is one of the simplest specs in the game. There's no decisions to be made at all. You can train a monkey to play it. Plus its damage is pretty pathetic.

Frost is fun to play and the playstyle is not simple, but it's far too dependent on raid buffs being present for me to use in my 10-mans. If one raider gets swapped with another, all of a sudden i'm not crit capped and my damage plummets. Also, many of the Firelands fights are pretty crappy for water elementals.

Arcane is one of the more complex specs in the game if you define complex not as "how many buttons are pressed" but correctly as "how many decisions do I have to make on the fly," All the forum lemmings will tell you otherwise, but they're just plain wrong, either just trying to troll in a poor attempt to be funny, or maybe out of ignorance of the spec (or a combination of both). Arcane is pretty simple on short fights like heroic 5-mans. When you get into progression raiding, however, the skill ceiling skyrockets and you have to play much much differently in order to be effective. You also have to make a lot of decisions as you're going and think two minutes ahead if you want to be the best.

While you look at it and say "it's a one button spec, it must be simple" a smart person would look at it and say "the spec depends on spamming one spell that costs a shit ton of mana as often as possible, but the spec also depends on keeping its mana as high as possible to do as much damage as it can." Look at it that way - the REAL way - and you will realize how inherently complex the spec is to maximize because the two things you need to do are quite opposite. Trying to get the best of both worlds is what Arcane is all about. it's different than any other spec in the game, and many forum trolls just aren't able to process that in their simple little minds.

[Erik765]

Props Kara. Very well-said and good reason why often, by the end of a boss fight, it's always easy to sort out the well-played arcane mage from the one who read the forums here one day and decided the 'rotation' (for lack of a better term) was a simple one-button spam. (all other things, gear, etc. Being equal of course).

Fire to me is ridiculously boring, slow main nuke and, by the end of a fight I have a head-ache from listening to myself scream at the rng.

Guess I'm one of the strange ducks that likes to have to pay attention to more than when my dot is coming off so I can refresh it...

If you want a spec that requires skill and some actual foresight to play (and by 'play' I mean play well), play arcane. Those of us who understand that are the ones who have realized that, yes, arcane is not the same old boring arcane, and are thankful blizzard added the 'challenge-to-play-well' aspect to it.

Look at it this way people- By the end of a fight as arcane, you can always say to yourself 'I could have squeezed out a little more by timing that differently' (skill and foresight), unlike with fire '5 procs the whole fight... Really?', or 'the ignite went 20k higher 2 seconds after I just popped combustion, wtf?' (rng).

Now I'm starting to rant... I do that.

[Saegno]

I had a good chuckle when you asked if fire was complex.
No mage spec is complex, hell no spec in the game is really all that complex. Spam X, Make sure Y is always up, if Z procs use it, Use CD's, gg. I have even played PvE sub, arguably the most complex spec, and once you know what to do it's not hard.

Fire is all about watching for HS procs, keeping LvB up and eyeballing your ignite for when to hit combustion.
Arcane is all about blowing everything during CD's and spamming AB, keeping your mana above 90% during conserve and paying attention to int procs and mage armor ticks for mini burns.
Frost is all about having ADHD and watching for FoF/BF procs.

My mage is my main, we aren't hard but then again no class is anymore.

[Reavyn]

Fire is one of the simplest specs in the game. There's no decisions to be made at all. You can train a monkey to play it. Plus its damage is pretty pathetic.

Frost is fun to play and the playstyle is not simple, but it's far too dependent on raid buffs being present for me to use in my 10-mans. If one raider gets swapped with another, all of a sudden i'm not crit capped and my damage plummets. Also, many of the Firelands fights are pretty crappy for water elementals.

Arcane is one of the more complex specs in the game if you define complex not as "how many buttons are pressed" but correctly as "how many decisions do I have to make on the fly," All the forum lemmings will tell you otherwise, but they're just plain wrong, either just trying to troll in a poor attempt to be funny, or maybe out of ignorance of the spec (or a combination of both). Arcane is pretty simple on short fights like heroic 5-mans. When you get into progression raiding, however, the skill ceiling skyrockets and you have to play much much differently in order to be effective. You also have to make a lot of decisions as you're going and think two minutes ahead if you want to be the best.

While you look at it and say "it's a one button spec, it must be simple" a smart person would look at it and say "the spec depends on spamming one spell that costs a shit ton of mana as often as possible, but the spec also depends on keeping its mana as high as possible to do as much damage as it can." Look at it that way - the REAL way - and you will realize how inherently complex the spec is to maximize because the two things you need to do are quite opposite. Trying to get the best of both worlds is what Arcane is all about. it's different than any other spec in the game, and many forum trolls just aren't able to process that in their simple little minds.

No offense, but arcane is still easy and not complex. The only time when arcane can be considered complex is if you first step into raiding and need to learn the correct dps phases to maximise dps and when your gear has changed and you have to adapt your priorities to your new gear level.

After that, it's just the same old stuff over and over and over again.

That being said, the same goes for pretty much every class out there. My mage is a main over my frost dk/prot pally/resto druid. None of them are more complex or easier as an arcane mage to play. Different, yes. More difficult, no. Each class has it's cooldowns to manage to play optimally. Each class has it's priority rotation. Each class has it's own things to worry about to maintain the best dps/tps/hps.

To me, the most difficult thing to do, is to adapt each of the class' playstyle to the tactics for each different boss. Mainly because you simply cannot play exactly the same on each (progression) boss and expect to perform your best.

[Deleted]

Fire is pretty useless for both pvp and pve right now

[Karazee]

No offense, but arcane is still easy and not complex. The only time when arcane can be considered complex is if you first step into raiding and need to learn the correct dps phases to maximise dps and when your gear has changed and you have to adapt your priorities to your new gear level.

If Arcane was so easy, why are there so many crappy Arcane mages out there? If it was so easy, even a terribad nub could maximize, but if you've ever run Baradin Hold or pugged raids, or used the dungeon finder with any regularity, you know how many just plain terrible mages there are out there (the same as the other 9 specs).

What you get with Arcane is a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. It's way too easy to perform well at the introductory levels (not talking about "leveling" per se, I'm more referring to entry raiding gear and difficulty levels) because you can make mistakes and still get decent results. However, many of the forum lemmings also equate spamming one spell non stop in a heroic 5man to what is necessary in order to succeed in a heroic progression raid situation.

You are correct that one of the more difficult things to do is to adapt to each fight's mechanics. To me, that's one of the most fun parts of raiding - figuring out when you can and can't, and should and shouldn't do certain things. Having progression raided in this expansion on my mage, hunter and death knight, and pugged on my shaman, I can say that Arcane is the most difficult one of those I've played so far in learning and maximizing that. With Arcane, it's not just a matter of figuring out when to burn and when to conserve, but as your raid gets better geared, the fight gets shorter and you have to make adjustments to that when certain phases or windows on some fights change. You also need to change it up a lot more when going from normal to heroic mode than those other classes. Of course, the other classes have their own things to worry about that Arcane doesn't (in the instance of DK's, rune management and watching KM procs, for example), but as you said, different doesn't necessarily mean more complex or more different. In some cases, though, depending on the difference, it may. It may also be in the eye of the beholder.

[Deleted]

It's not rocket science, but it's definetely not AB spam.

Correct, it's FB spam. You clearly haven't played both specs to an extent where you can actually compare them.

[Deleted]

I always enjoyed Fire

[roahn the warlock]

Fire mages too complex? lolololo go play a warlock and then talk to me about complex. pfft you made my day

also to the guy above me, whilst I would say fire is harder than most, arcane is easy as all hell, go away

Warlocks>Feral>fire mages>.... every other dps spec ever> arcane

[gutnbrg]

arcane>frost>fire atm, even tho fire is my favorite spec it just cant compete right now....where ever u got ur information, they were wrong. Also pls dont be one of those people that call arcane a 1button spec....again ur information is wrong....learn teh spec, play it, then comment.

[Deleted]

So I've been lookin for a caster with a decently complex rotation/priority list. Shadow priests are meh and so are warlocks (yes I know both are complex). I refuse to play a 1 button arcane mage, and I know frost just isn't viable as a dps spec. How is fire though? I tried it once before and it seemed pretty interesting, this was pre cataclysm. I know its competitive as well putting out pretty good numbers, but, is the rotation complex and interesting? Does it keep you on your toes? Are there a good amount of buttons to press? Thanks!

fire mage isnt complex, but to do good dps your are basically spending the fight hoping that a series of Rng elements line up for combustion, and if you need to spread combustion you need another proc, which on some fights can leave you really frustrated - you need to have a pyroblast dot on the target either from instant cast or hardcast, an ignite dot from a crit - ideally a big crit, and have living bomb up before combustion is worth using, now aoe fights are usually were fire excels( bar Alsyrazor) but you need to have all the dots above and an impact proc to spread the dots, and while sometimes everything lines up and you spread a fat ignite combustion and you get huge dps, other times Rng just shits on you and your dps suffers massively

now alot of people say that "arcane is one button" - its doesnt mean its an easy class to play, a bad player will get good dps as arcane, a good player will get awesome dps as arcane, the meta game in arcane is timing cooldowns being precise and managing mana and cooldowns to the best, for me the joy of arcane is finely tuning stats on my gear trying to milk every last point of damage i can from the set i use -

so if I was you I would skip fire, Its not the fire we all knew and loved from wrath and before, its very Rng and frustrating to play,

[dabs]

arcane mage isn't 1 button spam lol... when played properly it's one of the hardest roles to play in the game -.-

[Agallochh]

Warlocks>Feral>fire mages>.... every other dps spec ever> arcane

You're just being ignorant and probably don't even have a mage. Warlocks aren't hard to play at all. In fact, no class is hard. But to say arcane is the easiest is pretty stupid. I'm sure mutilate rogues have easiest spec covered.