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  1. #61
    Android saga/cell saga were the best in my opinion.I loved Android 17's sense of humor, and android 18's nonchalant attitude towards everything.Piccolo vs android 17 is probably one of my favorite fights out of the entire series, It's nice to see a non-saiyan kick some ass once in a while. Android 16 vs cell was extremely epic as well, it was such a surprise to see the two of them go at it, Dr.gero's creations trying to kill each other. Buu saga was meh, the fusions made the saga, if it wasn't for gotenks and vegito the saga would have fallen flat on it's face. GT was also pretty bad. But all in all DBZ is my favorite anime, it really entertained me during my childhood.

  2. #62
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    It's possible Gohan was stronger than Goku at the end. We can assume SSJ3 Goku is roughly the same strength as SSJ3 Gotenks. The first Super Buu was about the same strength as SSJ3 Gotenks, and was completely overwhelmed by Mystic Gohan. After Super Buu absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo, Gohan was still roughly the same strength as Buu.

    I can't remember how well Goku did singularly against Buu, but I know that the only times he had an advantage over Buu was a) while fused with Vegeta and b) while using a Super Spirit Bomb (even then, he needed the Dragon Balls to give him the power to beat Buu).

  3. #63
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanto View Post
    Are you sure Gohan was stronger than Goku @ the end of the Buu saga? It was my assumption that after the Cell saga that Gohan never reached that power (or higher) again. I don't think Mystic Gohan was that great at all tbh...
    yeah gohan was the strongest

    nite nite leaving at this


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  4. #64
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Okay, quick glance through the wiki, SSJ3 Goku did okay against Kid Buu for a short while, but his living body couldn't deal with the energy and couldn't maintain the transformation.

  5. #65
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    And keep in mind, Gohan never hit SSJ 3. Goku did. And as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), SSJ3 Goku actually held his own against Kid Buu, whereas Gohan went to shit after Buu split.
    Yeah that's what I mean. I doubt Mystic Gohan was as powerful, or more powerful, than the SSJ3 form. Goku even said that he probably could've finished him off when they were fighting.

  6. #66
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanto View Post
    Yeah that's what I mean. I doubt Mystic Gohan was as powerful, or more powerful, than the SSJ3 form.
    Mystic Gohan was definitely stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

  7. #67
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    Okay, quick glance through the wiki, SSJ3 Goku did okay against Kid Buu for a short while, but his living body couldn't deal with the energy and couldn't maintain the transformation.
    Well that's the thing, imagine Goku's body (while he fought Buu the first time) as something like a battery. The more energy he used, the quicker the drain. If Goku had his normal body, he probably could've withstood the transformation just fine (like Trunks and Goten, who seemed to show zero strain from the transformation).

    Goku was simply running on borrowed time and couldn't maintain his power if he wanted to still teach the kids fusion.

  8. #68
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    The power levels come from Daizenshuu 7, a guidebook made by Akira Toriyama's assistants just after the Dragonball Z manga was finished. The full list can be found here. Personally, I take the ones from V-Jump, and the video games with a grain of salt. So always check the source on the right. http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Power_levels

    As for Frieza, he says his power level was over a million when he was in his second form. Frieza's 100% Final Form had a power level of 120 million.
    Holy crap Broly's power level is 1.4 billion? That's insanity, no wonder it took so much to bring him down.

    Also, just noticed this thread today, good stuff.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  9. #69
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    Mystic Gohan was definitely stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
    That may be true, but don't forget their maturity level and their freshness to the form compared to Goku. Goku had a lot more time in Other World (I think that's what it's called) to practice and master the form, if not utilize it to its fullest potential. Gotenks had less than a day.

    One could argue that, however, with Gohan's mastery of the SSJ2 form during the fight with Cell after just performing the transformation. If you look at his discipline and background, though, you can probably see that he'd be gifted with more control over great power than a couple of rambunctious kids.

  10. #70
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanto View Post
    Well that's the thing, imagine Goku's body (while he fought Buu the first time) as something like a battery. The more energy he used, the quicker the drain. If Goku had his normal body, he probably could've withstood the transformation just fine (like Trunks and Goten, who seemed to show zero strain from the transformation).

    Goku was simply running on borrowed time and couldn't maintain his power if he wanted to still teach the kids fusion.
    Gotenks couldn't maintain the SSJ3 form either. He lost SSJ3 form before the fusion wore off and had to be saved by Gohan.

    Also, the part I mentioned earlier was after Goku was revived. He did have his normal body, and it couldn't withstand the SSJ3 form for long, and he went back to his base form. That's why he went with the Spirit Bomb instead.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanto View Post
    Yeah that's what I mean. I doubt Mystic Gohan was as powerful, or more powerful, than the SSJ3 form. Goku even said that he probably could've finished him off when they were fighting.
    Mystic was much more powerful. One thing to remember is that Super Buu is far stronger than Kid Buu. Yes, Elder Kai says that absorbing beings weakened Buu, but that's a dubbing mistake. In all other dubs, including the Japanese, and the manga, he specifically says that it pacified Buu. And I think based on context, it's safe to assume he was specifically talking about the absorption of the Grand Supreme Kai.

    Here's a good breakdown of the relative level of power of the characters in the Buu saga. Vegito > Super Buu > Mystic Gohan > SS3 Goku > Kid Buu > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Buu, (Good Buu absorbed) > Fat Buu > Evil Buu > Good Buu > SS2 Vegeta > SS2 Gohan > Dabura >Yakon > Pui Pui > Supreme Kai.

    Yes, Supreme Kai is that much of a bitch.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-07 at 06:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncanîdaho View Post
    Holy crap Broly's power level is 1.4 billion? That's insanity, no wonder it took so much to bring him down.

    Also, just noticed this thread today, good stuff.
    It's not that high even when you think about it. Supreme Kai could have taken him. Assuming we can take his word as fact, he claims to be 1000 times stronger than Frieza, which would make his PL 120 billion. And well, Supreme Kai is a bitch at the point in the series when he shows up.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  12. #72
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    the supreme kai was lying about being 1000 times stronger then freiza

    ya had to say this*

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  13. #73
    Huge fan of everything DB/Z/GT forever! Even the filler!

    YES! (Although I would have...maybe skipped Super 17. Maybe. Still had important plot points.)

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Here's a good breakdown of the relative level of power of the characters in the Buu saga. Vegito > Super Buu > Mystic Gohan > SS3 Goku > Kid Buu > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Buu, (Good Buu absorbed) > Fat Buu > Evil Buu > Good Buu > SS2 Vegeta > SS2 Gohan > Dabura >Yakon > Pui Pui > Supreme Kai.

    Yes, Supreme Kai is that much of a bitch.
    Wasn't Dabura slightly stronger than SS2 Gohan? They pretty much fought to a stalemate, but I think Goku said Dabura was a little stronger than Perfect Cell, whereas Gohan was a bit weaker than his teenage self due to lack of training.

    Also, what about Kabito-Kai? And do we know that Yakon and Pui Pui were stronger than Kai?

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 10:59 PM ----------

    Fun Fact: Yakon is the first character in DBZ to actually be killed by Goku.

  15. #75
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    o__O Hm. I thought Kid Buu was stronger than the other forms because he put Goku and Vegeta through a couple of loops while trying to kill him. I guess that's what I get for sticking with my intuition that I formed about it when I was a kid and not looking stuff up. I completely forgot about Goku being revived during the fight with Kid Buu though. I should've remembered because I had one of those good feelings about Goku congrats-ing Vegeta for being brought back to life too (signifying his sins were forgiven).

    It still strikes me odd that Mystic Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

  16. #76
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    It's not that high even when you think about it. Supreme Kai could have taken him. Assuming we can take his word as fact, he claims to be 1000 times stronger than Frieza, which would make his PL 120 billion. And well, Supreme Kai is a bitch at the point in the series when he shows up.
    I never realized the power got that high later on in the series, as there is more of just comparisons later on to go by rather then actual levels. Plus I haven't watched it in years. Been getting back into it lately though, just watched the first Broly movie for the first time in years again yesterday. So he was fresh on my mind and I always wondered what his PL actually was.

    And so much for being supreme eh?
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  17. #77
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    Fun Fact: Yakon is the first character in DBZ to actually be killed by Goku.
    That... almost doesn't surprise me.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    Wasn't Dabura slightly stronger than SS2 Gohan? They pretty much fought to a stalemate, but I think Goku said Dabura was a little stronger than Perfect Cell, whereas Gohan was a bit weaker than his teenage self due to lack of training.

    Also, what about Kabito-Kai? And do we know that Yakon and Pui Pui were stronger than Kai?
    Dabura would have got his shit wrecked if that fight went on much longer. There's a lot of confusion about Gohan's power at that time, me being the ultimate Gohan fanboy, I have tracked down the facts.

    It was Vegeta that said Gohan was stronger as a child, but the reason he said that isn't what you think. Gohan was not SS2 when he fought Dabura, he was FPSS. This is one of the very few cases where the anime cannot be trusted, due to very specific circumstances. SS2 is not animated consistently in the anime. Many believe that lightning marks the appearance of SS2, others believe that for Gohan it's the shape of his hair. Both are wrong. There's only one way to tell for sure, and it's something that only appears in the manga. It's the thickness and sharpness of the aura. This is consistent across the SS2 forms of all characters. There is only a noticeable difference in the manga though. The anime isn't wrong per se, it just doesn't say, and the visual cues that people use to interpret the scenes are wrong.

    Gohan is SS2 at the world martial arts tournament, he's FPSS against Dabura, and he goes SS2 again when he tries to destroy Fat Buu's ball. I suppose I should have included that Dabura > FPSS Gohan. If Gohan went SS2 though, Dabura would have lost hardcore. As for Supreme Kai. We don't know for sure that he was weaker than Pui Pui, but it's a good assumption. We can be 99% sure. He was basically shitting a brick before Pui Pui got chunked by Vegeta, and claimed a few times that Pui Pui is one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy and it would take all of their combined efforts to defeat him.

    As for Kabito-Kai, fuck if I know. He never does anything, so it's impossible to say. We just know he was stronger than Supreme Kai.
    Last edited by Laurcus; 2012-03-07 at 07:08 AM.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  19. #79
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanto View Post
    o__O Hm. I thought Kid Buu was stronger than the other forms because he put Goku and Vegeta through a couple of loops while trying to kill him. I guess that's what I get for sticking with my intuition that I formed about it when I was a kid and not looking stuff up. I completely forgot about Goku being revived during the fight with Kid Buu though. I should've remembered because I had one of those good feelings about Goku congrats-ing Vegeta for being brought back to life too (signifying his sins were forgiven).

    It still strikes me odd that Mystic Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.
    I used to think Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu as well, since he was the final Buu of the Saga, and from Kabito-Kai's reaction to Kid Buu's appearance. Seems like Super Buu was a little stronger due to absorbing powerful people, but it also calmed some of his violence due to the good nature of some of his victims. Kid Buu was a complete sadist, whereas even Super Buu had a few momentary lapses in his evil.

    Kid Buu also could have seemed like the strongest because most of those who were at his level were killed when he destroyed Earth, leaving only Goku and Vegita (and they didn't have the earrings anymore). That left Goku as the only person strong enough, but only in the brief time he could retain the SSJ3 form.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    I used to think Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu as well, since he was the final Buu of the Saga, and from Kabito-Kai's reaction to Kid Buu's appearance. Seems like Super Buu was a little stronger due to absorbing powerful people, but it also calmed some of his violence due to the good nature of some of his victims. Kid Buu was a complete sadist, whereas even Super Buu had a few momentary lapses in his evil.

    Kid Buu also could have seemed like the strongest because most of those who were at his level were killed when he destroyed Earth, leaving only Goku and Vegita (and they didn't have the earrings anymore). That left Goku as the only person strong enough, but only in the brief time he could retain the SSJ3 form.
    I still want to know why the tits they didn't use smarter wishes. Instead of doing the whole spirit bomb thing and wishing to restore Goku's strength, they could have just wished for Gohan to be teleported to planet Kaishin. Mystic Gohan chunks Kid Buu, problem solved. And the best art is, Hercule gets no glory.

    Oh, and since I'm late on my random fact of the day. Random Fact #4: Hercule's real name is Mark.

    Btw, you people need to make discussions less interesting, I'm trying to play Mass Effect 3!
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

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