This is your chance to get Doomguard's CD fixed

[Jahrastafari]

Why would the Doomguard exhaustion be 5 minutes long? You can't just arbitrairly pull numbers out of your ass to support your point, they have to be based in some sort of rational logic

Really? What difference does it make? Make it 1 minute. Make it 100 minutes. Make it 100,000,000 minutes. When the spell is a personal cooldown whose cooldown duration matches or is greater than the debuff duration, the spell will always be limited by the personal cooldown, making the debuff redundant and unnecessary. Do you need me to flowchart the logic out for you?

Here's your choices if you want it up every attempt:

Make it a exhaustion-style debuff that clears on death. If that's the case the developer will have to contend with people suiciding, battle resing, and summoning multiple Doomguards for as often as the have battle reses available. In addition they'll have to deal with Doomguards being summoned after every death in unrated BGs.

Second choice? Scrap the debuff idea and just lower the cooldown, but in turn, you'll probably have a significantly less powerful doomguard cooldown to balance the ability to bring it out more than once an encounter.

In the end it comes down to: Do you want a weak Doomguard cooldown that's up every single attempt, guaranteed, or do you want a monsterfully powerful Doomguard cooldown that probably won't be available every attempt?

[solari]

i'd rather have the doomguard and infernal be total shit again, it makes dumb people complain about something that doesn't matter. they need to fix soulfire execution phase, fix affliction mastery, make demon soul spec-dependent, make the succubus an aoe pet for affliction and voidwalker the tanking pet again.

[treacherer]

Or maybe get Destro a decent execute mechanic. Buff Decimation while they're at it.

[mistuhbull]

Really? What difference does it make? Make it 1 minute. Make it 100 minutes. Make it 100,000,000 minutes. When the spell is a personal cooldown whose cooldown duration matches or is greater than the debuff duration, the spell will always be limited by the personal cooldown, making the debuff redundant and unnecessary. Do you need me to flowchart the logic out for you?

Why would the Debuff match the cooldown?

Does Exhaustion match for Heroism?

You are basing 80% of your argument on an assumption that does not make sense.

[Jahrastafari]

Why would the Debuff match the cooldown?

Does Exhaustion match for Heroism?

You are basing 80% of your argument on an assumption that does not make sense.

Are you suggesting an exhaution-style debuff that is longer than the cooldown of the spell? So now I have to die if I want to be able to use my cooldown more than once a fight, or on the next encounter?

Cooldown duration >= debuff duration (No need for the debuff)
Debuff duration > Cooldown duration (lol now I have to die if I want to use this twice, or if we're pulling the next encounter before the debuff expires.)

[mistuhbull]

Are you suggesting an exhaution-style debuff that is longer than the cooldown of the spell? So now I have to die if I want to be able to use my cooldown more than once a fight, or on the next encounter?

Um, duh.

That's how heroism works. Not really sure how this is so hard to grasp

[Art3x]

Mistuhbull, you're obviously missing the entire point.

Lower the cooldown to maybe 7 minutes. The turn around on a wipe is rarely more than 5 or 6 but often less than 10 so you'd be much more likely to have the DG up for every attempt.

[Kolo]

Why would the Debuff match the cooldown?

Does Exhaustion match for Heroism?

You are basing 80% of your argument on an assumption that does not make sense.

It doesn't matter if Sated matches the cooldown for Bloodlust because Bloodlust isn't a personal cooldown, it's a raid cooldown. If your doomguard had a 5m cooldown and a 10m sated like lust you would just have locks suiciding to clear the debuff making it a worthless debuff. Having a debuff on a personal dps cooldown is both stupid and redundant.

[Jahrastafari]

Um, duh.

That's how heroism works. Not really sure how this is so hard to grasp

You need to go back and read the part about how Heroism is a raid buff rather than a personal cooldown. There's a world of difference between the two. A sated player can still fire their heroism cooldown (assuming the spell itself isn't on cooldown) and apply it to any raid member that has cleared their sated debuff through death and resurrection. The same doesn't hold true for personal cooldowns like the doomguard. That's what makes the debuff redundant if the cooldown duration is >= to the debuff duration.

[mistuhbull]

It doesn't matter if Sated matches the cooldown for Bloodlust because Bloodlust isn't a personal cooldown, it's a raid cooldown. If your doomguard had a 5m cooldown and a 10m sated like lust you would just have locks suiciding to clear the debuff making it a worthless debuff. Having a debuff on a personal dps cooldown is both stupid and redundant.

And why is it stupid?

If you want your locks to waste your Brezes to pull out an extra 1 mil Damage (which is between 2-5% on a 10m NORMAL BOSS) then go ahead, but when another DPS dies from something, I really hope he only did 1 mil damage that whole fight, or else you're gonna look pretty silly.

[Art3x]

The reason it's stupid is because on a fight where people don't usually die there would be no reason not to sacrifice yourself for the extra damage.

[Jahrastafari]

And why is it stupid?

If you want your locks to waste your Brezes to pull out an extra 1 mil Damage (which is between 2-5% on a 10m NORMAL BOSS) then go ahead, but when another DPS dies from something, I really hope he only did 1 mil damage that whole fight, or else you're gonna look pretty silly.

And now we're back around to this. I'm just going to start copy/pasting from the last time I addressed this. "The point is, if you have a raid of people that can keep themselves from dying, it opens up massive exploitation of the cooldown. Not every raid has mouth-breathers standing in fire using up a battle res every attempt."

Are you comfortable with Blizzard balancing their HMs around the expectation that smart teams are going to have battle reses available for players like me to drop 3 1.5m+ Doomguards per encounter?

[mistuhbull]

You need to go back and read the part about how Heroism is a raid buff rather than a personal cooldown. There's a world of difference between the two. A sated player can still fire their heroism cooldown (assuming the spell itself isn't on cooldown) and apply it to any raid member that has cleared their sated debuff through death and resurrection. The same doesn't hold true for personal cooldowns like the doomguard. That's what makes the debuff redundant if the cooldown duration is >= to the debuff duration.

No it doesn't make it redundant, the fact that you are incapable of seeing the purpose behind the debuff is irrelevant to what the debuff's purpose is.

Blizzard does not want Warlocks using multiple doomguards per attempt, however they also apparantley want us using it every attempt. The debuff exists so that you can't use it multiple times in one fight (unless your raid wants to waste its Brezzes, but if your raid is tossing Brezes around like candy then it is probably a farm boss and doesn't matter),but allows you to use it in subsequent attempts because of the shorter CD.

---------- Post added 2011-09-12 at 11:54 AM ----------

And now we're back around to this. I'm just going to start copy/pasting from the last time I addressed this. "The point is, if you have a raid of people that can keep themselves from dying, it opens up massive exploitation of the cooldown. Not every raid has mouth-breathers standing in fire using up a battle res every attempt."

So you toss your battle rezzes around and you have a healer hit a massive lag spike and a DPS dies. Well, now you have a dead DPS who was probably doing substantially more damage than your Doomguard CDs. Or perhaps your tank lag spikes and doesn't move out of an ability fast enough, oops we wasted our Brezzes having the lock pad the meters. Oh well.

[Jahrastafari]

No it doesn't make it redundant, the fact that you are incapable of seeing the purpose behind the debuff is irrelevant to what the debuff's purpose is.

Blizzard does not want Warlocks using multiple doomguards per attempt, however they also apparantley want us using it every attempt. The debuff exists so that you can't use it multiple times in one fight (unless your raid wants to waste its Brezzes, but if your raid is tossing Brezes around like candy then it is probably a farm boss and doesn't matter),but allows you to use it in subsequent attempts because of the shorter CD.

If the spell is controlled by the cooldown (cooldown duration >= debuff duration), there's no need for a debuff because it's a personal cooldown. If you put a debuff in whose duration that execeeds the duration of the spell cooldown, you will have people suiciding to summon multiple Doomguards. Are you comfortable with Blizzard balancing their HMs around the expectation that smart teams are going to have battle reses available for players like me to drop 2+ 1.5m+ Doomguards per encounter?

Jesus christ, I feel like I'm typing to a pile of bricks.

[Penguin FTW]

Or just make it 300k every 2 minutes

[Kenasan]

I see Jahrastafari's point, it would be silly to put a debuff on it. I was doubting if it would be worth it to die and lose the time and buffs to get another doomguard out but considering how much damage it currently does the answer would mostly likely be yes. The only way to fix it that I can think of would be to nerf the doomguard and buff demo's own damage in some way. The doomguard honestly is just too big a part of demo's damage currently.

[mistuhbull]

Good raids WILL have people suiciding because they don't need their battle reses for idiots. Are you comfortable with Blizzard balancing their HMs around the expectation that smart teams are going to have battle reses available for players like me to drop 3 1.5m+ Doomguards per encounter?

So long as you are fine with the myriad of progression wipes caused by your selfish meter padding.


Again

How many fights are actually 16 minutes or longer? How many are actually 6 minutes or longer? how about 11?

[Jahrastafari]

So long as you are fine with the myriad of progression wipes caused by your selfish meter padding.


Again

How many are actually 6 minutes or longer?

According to WoL:


25H Beth- Median: 439 seconds
10H Beth- Median: 436 seconds
25 Beth- Median: 405 seconds
10 Beth- Median: 401 seconds
25H Alysrazor - Median: 645 seconds
10H Alysrazor - Median: 644 seconds
25 Alysrazor - Median: 603 seconds
10 Alysrazor - Median: 673 seconds
25 Shannox - Median: 457 seconds
10 Shannox - Median: 416 seconds
25H Baleroc - Median: 369 seconds
25H Domo - Median: 577 seconds
10H Domo - Median: 563 seconds
25 Domo - Median: 503 seconds
10 Domo - Median: 412 seconds
25 Ragnaros - Median: 584 seconds
10 Ragnaros - Median: 602 seconds
10H Ragnaros - Median: Not available
25H Ragnaros - Median: 919 seconds

[mistuhbull]

According to WoL:

25H Beth- Median: 439 seconds
25H Alysrazor - Median: 673 seconds
25H Shannox - Median: 416 seconds
25H Domo - Median: 412 seconds
25H Ragnaros - Median: 602 seconds

So if you suicide on those you get an extra boomguard, while wasting Brezzes. Again, if your raid wants to waste Brezzes so that you can meter pad, why is there no problem with Shamans doing this?

[Deleted]

What about this:

When you use the Doomguard you get a debuff which doesn't disappear only on death, but on death and getting out of combat. Then suicide after 5 minutes + DG won't be an option.