An oxymoron about hard cores demanding others don't see all content.

[Trifande]

I'm a semi-hardcore/semi-casual (dunno which to call it :P). Raid Lead of a 6/7hc guild that is working on Rag-hc that raids 9hrs/week (3hrs/day for 3days). I min/max as much as possible to obtain the most out of my character in raids.

Just to be clear, I have no problem with the incoming nerfs or with the LFR easy-mode addition, as long as they are both handled properly*.
* A Caveat to allowing both of these is that:
a) Blizzard really should've announce the nerfs at least 4 weeks/resets in advance. Whilst it does not affect me or my raid group as we killed the heroic bosses pre-nerf (bar Raggy), I still feel for those that are working on those encounters atm. With enough of an announcement it would allow guilds to push/plan better and hopefully reduce the resentment fostered by this change by at least 50% (can't really hope for much more ).
b) The LFR easy-mode bosses should really only drop iLvl appropriate BLUE items (I don't mind that the blue iLvl for t13 outstrips the Epic iLvl of t12). In addition, the artwork of the items (especially shoulder, helm, chest and weapons) as well as set-bonuses should be significantly different, even *shudder* inferior to those of the normal-mode and heroic-mode version. This shouldn't be that hard to implement and it would go a long way towards pleasing the different types of raiders equally.

Based on my interactions with other semi-hardcores/casuals, my experience has been that there will always be some poor people that invest too much of themselves into the game and therefore can't stand it for anyone else to have/see what they have. At the same time, there are just as many people who don't give a crap what other people do or don't see/obtain, as long as the content is challenging, engaging and interesting for them. It pains me to see the former group give the latter a bad name. It pains me further to hear people whine/moan about all 'hardcorish' players as if we were the same and as if we all hate the 'casuals'. We are NOT and we do NOT.

Take my guild for example, we have a group1 and a group2. Whilst group1 is the mega progression-centric group group2 was started to give the 'casuals', inexperienced, or simply worse players a chance at seeing the content. This group started in T11 and over the past few months they have grown and learnt as a team enough to reach 2/7hc this tier already. Hardcores and Casuals (and everyone in between) CAN mix. We don't need to hate each other and/or label each other to the extent that it becomes an "Us" v/s "Them" situation.

/Trifande

P.S. I was guild 2nd to hit 85 (the 2nd day after Cata released) but I am still a lore nut. I completed Loremaster pre-nerf and had Seeker a bare handful of quests into WotLK. I've read every WoW book there is (minus the anime/manga). Long story short, don't generalize about players in WoW, make you sound/look foolish.

[Krekko]

A terrific oxymoron about hard cores demanding that others don't see the ending of Ragnaros or Algalon or Sinestra is that most of them, to not say all, don't care about lore at all! Seriously, how many of those super hard cores are going to go slow on the quests of Mount Hyjal and understand the story that leads to the ending of Ragnaros? How many are going to go slow on the Nexus legendary quest and not slow down their guild trying to do the bosses and not waste time for their legendary quest's lore?

Reality is, most hard core guild do not care about lore, they care about mathematics. The numbers of the boss here, the abilities of the boss there. The movement steps here. The bufs there.

So, demanding that others don't Sinestra, that others, never take a glimpse on Algalon, that no one ever sees Ragnaros die is a hypocrisy of astranomical proportions: The never cared themselves anyway.

Just because a guild does not go slow does not mean they do not care about lore. In fact, most Hardcore guilds and players go through content more thoroughly. They read, play through content, multiple times, on alts, and just because you go fast, that doesn't mean you don't absorb it. I go by leveling fast and I get what's going on. These are the kind of guilds that will even if they don't get it 100% the first time, get it 100% on the second, even third or fourth pass. You're right though, Mechanics is more important, but they still need something to keep them entertained, something to make it all worthwhile rather than 10 big blocks standing down a corridor all doing xyz ammounts of dammage at various times. Lore is important, I'd say even more so, because they feel that the "Highest of high players should kill the highest of high bosses/enemies", which is a fair enough argument, don't you think? The best gets the best? I'd say so. Playing at all levels of the game, just because you go fast doesn't mean you don't care about lore. I care about lore very much. If I don't read about it in game, or I don't get it in quests, I read about it offline, or when I go over it on alts. Guess what hardcore raiders do? The same thing, with plenty of alts.

[banur]

But they demand to stop others from seeing part of the lore and the graphics that the artists worked so hard on.

Link ONE post that denies others to see the LORE if they are willing beat the encounter.

As I just said you just care about loots and achievements.

Because someone puts in the effort it requires he doesn't care about lore/graphics/etc.?
Wow is a game and games usually require effort. If you don't want to put in the required effort to get what you want, it's solely your problem.

Here is a small check list:

1) Learn to play your class.
2) Start raiding.
3) ???
4) See the lore you want.

[dotSeed]

What you're arguing for is to have lore important figures be accessible; not that Heroic modes should be accessible. Surely you would want interesting lore characters to be viewable and intractable outside of one room that they sit in without reason with people on vent talking over their voice acting, no?

In fact I'm not sure what you're argument is at all - I've never heard anyone argue Heroic modes should remain hard for the majority of players 'to stop others from seeing part of the lore and the graphics'.

[gearhead417]

Ye, actually, that's the kind of statements that really infuriate them. I know this game has no contact at all with its artists but I was in several gaming communities with artists directly talking with people and justifications such as yours still infuriated them and made them make it more about art even against their wishes.

Just caring about math or any other small portion of the game just doesn't cut it for a creator that put his life onto the thing. They want their work appreciated. You talk about your effort on raiding, but you've no idea how that compared into creating ulduar.

ok fateswarm i just have one question for you. you say that hardcores dont take time to worry about lore and that casuals do but frankly thats stupid cause it seems to me like your trying to justify why they should nerf content so everyone can see it which to be honest its not suppose to work that way. your suppose to actually work toward a goal and the effort you put into that goal makes it better than just sitting around wondering what could have been if you actually made an attempt at it. you seem to be under the impression that no hardcore cares about lore and thats stupid cause they actually spend time to go through the content to see the end of it. so from what im getting from you is that you someone who feels that since you pay 15 dollars a month your entitled to everything the game has to offer. well guess what heres what your "entitled"to: 1) being able to log on and play the game in a way that doesnt disrupt other's enjoyment 0of the game, and 2) putting in the effort to seeing content instead of sitting on your butt all day in your mom's basement screaming i want to see content now give it to me now. so will you stop complaining about what you dont like cause frankly you opinion matters as much as shoes to a fish. thank you and goodnight

[Vaelkyri]

Hardcores dont give a damn who see's the content, they are too busy playing the content.

As for loot- Risk vs Reward, they put in the effort and take on more risk of failure and a rewarded for it.

Something kids these days dont understand- not everything will be handed to you, you want it? go get it.
Dont want to go get it? then shut it and stopexpecting it will just be handed to you.

For the record I am not a harcore, only 5/7 norms atm. Do I whine about not getting H gear/ No- Im reciveing loot appropriate to the effort Im putting in and the risk Im taking on.

[Cairhiin]

As I just said you just care about loots and achievements. By denying others to see the lore and the graphics and the art and the voice acting is just your ego overstepping into a realm you don't care about.

Wait what, I never said that, you are just putting words in my mouth to prove your own argument. I don't care at all who kills Algalon. I'm merely pointing out that demanding things without willing to put in the effort is an oxymoron. As WoW is an MMO and MMOs revolve around effort vs reward. And why would a hardcore player not care about lore? That's just your asumption to once again prove your argument.

[Aceventauren]

I'm all for everyone seeing content, but i think even if you're looking at it from a Lore point of view, shouldn't the bosses be hard to kill?

[Hinalover]

I'm in a 25-man semi-hardcore guild. We are currently 4/7H but we should have 5/7H tomorrow or Monday.

I'm a lore nut. I had Loremaster pre-pre nerf (back when it required 740 quests in Kalimdor), Seeker before Wrath was released. I love the lore that Blizzard gives for it's content, and yes I do read up on the books, mangas, etc. Maybe some of the top guilds are not lore nuts, but I can garantee that at least a few of them actually read up on the lore of the content. Some lore is actually thrown at you while playing the raid. Take for example Ulduar. After killing heroic Iron Council, we learn from Bran that an alpha message is about to be sent to the Titans that will re-do all of Azaroth. It is through this that we get to start the journey to Algalon, the "optional" boss of the instance. Yes it does require killing 5 heroics in Ulduar to reach Algalon so you can say that only Hardcore guilds saw him. But now look at trade chat and you will see pugs going after him. Or Dks soloing Heroic Ulduar bosses. Shoot most people wanted to kill heroic Lich King because of the lore. Too many people played Warcraft 3 and fell in love with the story of Arthas and his downward spiral to become the Lich King.

[shesta]

Also I'd like to point out, in a game full of artists, you care about math. I don't know if you ever had contact with gaming artists but you've no idea how much they hate that.

I'm an artist and have been a dedicated raider since vanilla. I care about art. I care about math. Most artists don't care about someone playing the game and caring about math - where do you get this idea?

If you're an artist you know that a lot of the time that work is taken for granted: but you also know it matters more than people realise. Take Mr "Polishing a Turd" up there. He's probably first to QQ when his new tier set looks ugly. He'd probably be whining if every raid encounter took place in Molten Core. Most people would be. The secret about art is that it's actually one of the biggest reasons why people play World of Warcraft - the design of everything from the world, to the armor, to the races, is simply much more alive and engaging than its competitors, and that's the first thing that draws you in. It looks far better and more memorable than X game where you play an elf or a human or maybe a scruffier looking human always wearing generic fantasy armor #483474b running around in generic murky desaturated grass and dirt land.

Offtopic, but relevent, I feel.

[Deleted]

If you seriously care for lore, you can read up on it without playing the encounter. I don't need to EXPERIENCE lore. I just want to KNOW everything about it

If you really care for the lore, you absolutely have to get a lot of it from sources out of the game. Most of the lore happens in those books, and never reaches anything ingame anyways. And what you accomplish ingame is afterwards changed to fit the lore (removing all of those player achievements from the lore).

[Rugz]

A terrific oxymoron about hard cores demanding that others don't see the ending of Ragnaros or Algalon or Sinestra is that most of them, to not say all, don't care about lore at all! Seriously, how many of those super hard cores are going to go slow on the quests of Mount Hyjal and understand the story that leads to the ending of Ragnaros? How many are going to go slow on the Nexus legendary quest and not slow down their guild trying to do the bosses and not waste time for their legendary quest's lore?

Reality is, most hard core guild do not care about lore, they care about mathematics. The numbers of the boss here, the abilities of the boss there. The movement steps here. The bufs there.

So, demanding that others don't Sinestra, that others, never take a glimpse on Algalon, that no one ever sees Ragnaros die is a hypocrisy of astranomical proportions: The never cared themselves anyway.

There are plenty of kill videos, descriptions, screenshots and sound files of all the boss encounters out there, if you really care about the lore that much more than gameplay then just use those. I don't see why the most challenging part of the game should be diminished to tell people a story that has already been told and publicised through other media.

[Davisdoesdallas]

This is ridiculous

Normally I wouldn't even dignify a post like this with a response but it's just so ignorant... Odd's are, I am better than you. Not because I "convinced myself" but because I play this game for competition, I practice, I dedicate myself to being better. I probably put in a lot more time just to increase my skill slightly than you do to make a large milestone.

Note I said "probably" you might be a good player, you might be absolutely terrible, I'm not here to make that call. Stereotyping a group of people because of you having a sour taste with them is just as equally moronic as your post directed towards us.

If you aren't in paragon/dream or another high end top 25 guild, you haveconvinced yourself you're better. Practicing at this game equates to playing it. You can't sit down and think, I'm going to work on my keyboard articulation today. Or my raid slurring and tonguing.


He has a sour taste because people like you say stupid shit like you just said. You are not better than another person plain and simple. You are not some special snowflake in a storm of 11million.

You are the definition of elitist. considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:

<Infracted>

[Deleted]

To be honest: It ain't the real hardcore players that complain about stuff like this.

I've never heard sounds like that coming from Paragon, Ensidia, For the Horde etc etc

It's the wannabee's that want to feel special too. The people that consider themselves hardcore but yet needed a 20% buff aura to be able to take down Professor Putricide.

[Davisdoesdallas]

There are plenty of kill videos, descriptions, screenshots and sound files of all the boss encounters out there, if you really care about the lore that much more than gameplay then just use those. I don't see why the most challenging part of the game should be diminished to tell people a story that has already been told and publicised through other media.

Sorry for double post but I lol'd my ass off at this guy.


I'm sorry but I wonder why blizzard is not satisfied with a video like Tank Spot replacing getting people into the raid itself. LOL LOL LOL LOL.


/assoff

To be honest: It ain't the real hardcore players that complain about stuff like this.

I've never heard sounds like that coming from Paragon, Ensidia, For the Horde etc etc

It's the wannabee's that want to feel special too. The people that consider themselves hardcore but yet needed a 20% buff aura to be able to take down Professor Putricide.

^^^^ yes.


but really, you don't want others to see what you are seeing now for whatever reason you come up with, it is because you hold yourself to a higher standard in a video that is shared with 11 million other people. This isn't a problem with blizzards design philosiphy because it hasn't changed since Quel'Danas.

And heroicsmode should be nerfed because they did it in ICC and none of the progression or hardcore guilds turned that shit off and no one will respond to my posts when they bitch about heroics being nerfed and you mention ICC, they all disappear into recesses of the interwebz.

[Deleted]

This is ridiculous

Normally I wouldn't even dignify a post like this with a response but it's just so ignorant... Odd's are, I am better than you. Not because I "convinced myself" but because I play this game for competition, I practice, I dedicate myself to being better. I probably put in a lot more time just to increase my skill slightly than you do to make a large milestone.

Note I said "probably" you might be a good player, you might be absolutely terrible, I'm not here to make that call. Stereotyping a group of people because of you having a sour taste with them is just as equally moronic as your post directed towards us.

Well, the problem is that people playing this game seem to think that "being better" than someone else at it, means they're WORTH more as well. And that's of course just pure retardation, as Borat would put it.

---------- Post added 2011-09-15 at 11:08 AM ----------

To be frank I fail to see why the "hardcore" raiders moan about this. If they're so pro then they should be well beyond Firelands in gear and know the encounters like the back of their hands in time for the next tier. Why then would they feel the need to cry about OLD content being toned down?

I'm a hardcore player, I spend lots and lots of time learning my class, lore, extreme soloing and farming/gathering/pvping/pveing what I can. However, I stopped raiding and the way things are going with the e-peen being more important than actually seeing and downing content, I won't be going back anytime soon.

[Deleted]

As I just said you just care about loots and achievements. By denying others to see the lore and the graphics and the art and the voice acting is just your ego overstepping into a realm you don't care about.

Never have I read of any of the top guilds saying they don't want anyone else to see the encounters that they have worked towards. The only thing I have seen, and I agree with them, is that if you want to see it either 1) wait till it's not current content or 2) put in the same effort that they do. Neither of which is a hard concept to grasp is it?

I'm not hardcore raiding like I used to and I certainly don't expect to be rewarded without putting in the effort which is something that seems to be generally misplaced in todays WoW gamers.

Another thing, if you're SOOOOOO worried about the lore and not the gear the encounters ARE STILL THERE /gasp!!! Shocking I know. You can always go back to noncurrent content and see the lore, art, voice acting you claim to be so worried about.

[banur]

You are the definition of elitist. considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:

Ohh, sweet we throw dictionary definitions around! Hey! Hey! I found one, too:
dumb- 1. lacking intelligence or good judgment;

Read the starting post again and you see that the OP accuses hardcore players to deny other the right to see the LORE, because they themself don't care about it.
It's not about people being "elitist".
If you are able to beat the boss who should deny you the lore? As said multiple times, if you put in the effort it requires, you are free to enjoy the rewards, whether it's the lore or the loot.

<Infracted>

[Dukenukem]

Im pretty sure someone said this already:
Hardcore players and even elitist never mind if somebody is seeing all the content as they do, what they DO mind is that someone is demanding to see all without putting efort in anything. In average you can invest 8-12 hours a week to a average guild and see 7/7 FL.
If you are not able or willing to put 8-12 hours a week into something how can you expect to see it all?