N Extinguished Hand vs H Zoid/H Skullstealer

[Deleted]

So I've been reading some forums and talking to people, watched sims (Tho i can't remember the exact results) etc. Somehow I end up with people saying that Normal rag mace is better than heroic zoid/skullstealer. Why is this so?

Rag mace is slower, yes. But it has less strength in total, and less top damage. However, being slower will result in crits more often, helping Apparatus and vessel proc, that I can somewhat understand.

But I can still not see how it's a dps increase, since with less top damage, CS, TV, white hits etc will hit for a lower ammount of damage. Is it because of the mastery on the mace, making it easier to proc mastery on apparatus? You can just reforge away some crit for that, instead of haste, (tho yes, crit is superior to haste). I'm using H Zoid atm, because It grants me 3 expertise due to me being a human, and more strength than the axe due to the socket.

But yeah, any sort of in depth explanation would be very much appreciated. Please help me out on this one.

[Xuany]

I can't really answer this question but N Rag mace having less Str in total? It has 391 Str + 2 red Sockets + 20 Str socket bonus, unless you don't plan to put pure Str gems in it it would have 31 more Str than H Skullstealer and 50 Str more than H Zoid.

[Deleted]

Uups, yes I misread the str, you got me there, tho I think you got the axe and the sword mixed up :P. I'm still wondering however.

Just exactly WHY would the normal mace be better?

[Jazzhands]

Your best option would be to sim it, or use a website like Askmrrobot, because it may depend on your gear. But, I believe it's something like this:

H Skullstealer is superior because: You lose 31 strength, but gain 70 mastery. Using my own stat weights, this is a gain, even if very slight. You lose crit for haste, however, after reforging it's not that big of a loss, and the extra 53 DPS makes up for this easily, as well as slightly higher top end damage.

For myself, H Skullsteal/Zoids are put slightly above Sulfuras, the difference probably wouldn't be terribly noticeable, but for a min/maxer, any increase is an increase. If I were human, I imagine Skullstealer would be a bit higher due to racials.

[Deleted]

Your best option would be to sim it, or use a website like Askmrrobot, because it may depend on your gear. But, I believe it's something like this:

H Skullstealer is superior because: You lose 31 strength, but gain 70 mastery. Using my own stat weights, this is a gain, even if very slight. You lose crit for haste, however, after reforging it's not that big of a loss, and the extra 53 DPS makes up for this easily, as well as slightly higher top end damage.

For myself, H Skullsteal/Zoids are put slightly above Sulfuras, the difference probably wouldn't be terribly noticeable, but for a min/maxer, any increase is an increase. If I were human, I imagine Skullstealer would be a bit higher due to racials.

Just in this case with the axe vs the mace, I believe the mastery loss for the mace isn't the issue for me, since I'm human, and the expertise the mace brings will alow me to reforge a stat into mastery instead of expertise. For a human the sword should be even better than the axe Imo.

Tho I'm really temped in picking the mace up just because of the things i've heard, and if anyone with the knowledge could confirm why the mace would be better (IF it is), then that'd would make my day, really.

Also, why would the skullstealer be better for a human due to racials? Humans have no racials supporting axes, maybe you ment the sword? =P

[Deleted]

Actually, TV should hit the hardest with Sulfuras, since TV is not normalized to a 3.3 weapon speed, as far as I know. That means, that you get more Attack Power contributed.

So when an attack is normalized to 3.3 speed, you get: 3.3*AP/14
But since TV is not normalized (still, as far as I know): Weaponspeed*AP/14

So, a slower weapon will hit harder on TV, but since the top damage on Sulfuras is lower, every other attack should hit higher with the axe or sword, since they are normalized.

[Deleted]

Actually, TV should hit the hardest with Sulfuras, since TV is not normalized to a 3.3 weapon speed, as far as I know. That means, that you get more Attack Power contributed.

So when an attack is normalized to 3.3 speed, you get: 3.3*AP/14
But since TV is not normalized (still, as far as I know): Weaponspeed*AP/14

So, a slower weapon will hit harder on TV, but since the top damage on Sulfuras is lower, every other attack should hit higher, since they are normalized.

Ok, intresting, I didn't know that about TV tbh. Since TV is our nr 1 damage source (not to mention the mastery proc off of it), I can start to see why it would be slightly better. Any more confirmations?

[Jazzhands]

Just in this case with the axe vs the mace, I believe the mastery loss for the mace isn't the issue for me, since I'm human, and the expertise the mace brings will alow me to reforge a stat into mastery instead of expertise. For a human the sword should be even better than the axe Imo.

Tho I'm really temped in picking the mace up just because of the things i've heard, and if anyone with the knowledge could confirm why the mace would be better (IF it is), then that'd would make my day, really.

Also, why would the skullstealer be better for a human due to racials? Humans have no racials supporting axes, maybe you ment the sword? =P

You are correct, I did mean Zoids. =P

I didn't realize that TV wasn't normalized, so that combine with the human racial might be why it's being simmed higher for you. I'm draenei, and I switched my sim to be human, and it sets Sulfuras as higher then Skullstealer now, but still lower then zoids. I would imagine from Zoids it's just the weapon DPS increase.

[Deleted]

You are correct, I did mean Zoids. =P

I didn't realize that TV wasn't normalized, so that combine with the human racial might be why it's being simmed higher for you. I'm draenei, and I switched my sim to be human, and it sets Sulfuras as higher then Skullstealer now, but still lower then zoids. I would imagine from Zoids it's just the weapon DPS increase.

Ah, ok Thanks for your input!

[Kenjji]

Mace is better cause of the 3.80 speed, theres been several threads about it already

[Pliers]

Mace > Mace > 391 > 378

[Deleted]

So I've been reading some forums and talking to people, watched sims (Tho i can't remember the exact results) etc. Somehow I end up with people saying that Normal rag mace is better than heroic zoid/skullstealer. Why is this so?

Rag mace is slower, yes. But it has less strength in total, and less top damage. However, being slower will result in crits more often, helping Apparatus and vessel proc, that I can somewhat understand.

But I can still not see how it's a dps increase, since with less top damage, CS, TV, white hits etc will hit for a lower ammount of damage. Is it because of the mastery on the mace, making it easier to proc mastery on apparatus? You can just reforge away some crit for that, instead of haste, (tho yes, crit is superior to haste). I'm using H Zoid atm, because It grants me 3 expertise due to me being a human, and more strength than the axe due to the socket.

But yeah, any sort of in depth explanation would be very much appreciated. Please help me out on this one.

Top damage is completely irrelevant. You are only intrested in average weapon damage.