Stacking Mastery or The 1573 Haste cap

[Deleted]

Im not sure whats better ethier going full out on mastery and not caring about haste or is it worth getting the 1573 for the extra immo tick


Also i see people have like 400-700 more intellect then me my intellect seems really low dont know why,


my armoury eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/wildhammer/Lvz/advanced

[Penguin FTW]

It depends on the fight and your gear, but for your gear you can definitely sit at the haste/mastery levels you're at now. You can't even hit the 1573 mark without dropping a ton of mastery.

[Deleted]

Yeah! iv'e tryed it my Masterys drops down to like 17.00 whats like 7% Dmg its not nice..

[Jahrastafari]

There is no 1573 haste cap. The only even that happens in the 1573 area is an extra Immolate tick that's made completely moot by the HoG refresh.

I wish all this desperation to make haste relevant for Demonology would die out. I don't know if it's a function of people being stuck in the old 'haste is king' mindset, or if they're trying to legitimize haste because they don't like reforging so much when they swap specs or if they just can't stand the slow play style, but there just isn't a relevant haste threshold where you should swap out mastery to hit that threshold besides the 1008 haste (Shadowflame tick). First it was 1993 for the Corruption tick that has been proven to be an all-around loss to reach for. Now it's 1573 because in some fantasy world it makes your Metamorphosis cooldown a guaranteed 2 minute cooldown.

I'll say it again, there's no haste plateau worth swaping mastery for haste for beyond 1008.

Let's look at it another way. For the sake of discussion, let's agree with the recent supposition around here that says 1573 haste guarantees you a 2 minute Metamorphosis cooldown every time. The only way that would be of ANY benefit to you is if shaving those extra 15/30 seconds off of the Meta cooldown (when compared to a 1008 haste build) gets you another full-duration Metamorphosis cooldown in the encounter. If you're getting 3 Meta casts with the 1573 threshold and the 1008 threshold is getting 3 Meta casts over the life of the fight too, guess what, you lost DPS by swapping out mastery to reach that imaginary 1573 threshold. A two-minute Meta doesn't do anything for you if it doesn't get you an extra Metamorphosis cooldown!

Let's look at this from the standpoint of the standard length 450 second Simulation, ignoring the fact that 1573 haste doesn't guarantee you a 2 minute Meta and 1008 haste builds still hit the 2 minute cooldown with favorable RNG. Assuming the most favorable possible conditions for 1573 haste and the worst RNG for 1008 haste:



1573 Haste build with 565 less Mastery

0:00:00 Metamorphosis (Bloodlust)
2:00:00 Metamorphosis
4:00:00 Metamorphosis
6:00:00 Metamorphosis


1008 Haste Build with an additional 565 Mastery

0:00:00 Metamorphosis (Bloodlust)
2:00:00 Metamorphosis
4:30:00 Metamorphosis
7:00:00 Metamorphosis

That's four full cooldowns for both, and if you reached for that 1573 plateau you've just gimped yourself to the tune of 565 mastery. Unless you can guarantee you're getting in an extra Metamorphosis cooldown with 1573 haste when compared to 1008 haste, you're pissing into the wind.

[avengingbt]

There is no 1573 haste cap. The only even that happens in the 1573 area is an extra Immolate tick that's made completely moot by the HoG refresh.

I wish all this desperation to make haste relevant for Demonology would die out. I don't know if it's a function of people being stuck in the old 'haste is king' mindset, or if they're trying to legitimize haste because they don't like reforging so much when they swap specs or if they just can't stand the slow play style, but there just isn't a relevant haste threshold where you should swap out mastery to hit that threshold besides the 1008 haste (Shadowflame tick). First it was 1993 for the Corruption tick that has been proven to be an all-around loss to reach for. Now it's 1573 because in some fantasy world it makes your Metamorphosis cooldown a guaranteed 2 minute cooldown.

I'll say it again, there's no haste plateau worth swaping mastery for haste for beyond 1008.

Let's look at it another way. For the sake of discussion, let's agree with the recent supposition around here that says 1573 haste guarantees you a 2 minute Metamorphosis cooldown every time. The only way that would be of ANY benefit to you is if shaving those extra 15/30 seconds off of the Meta cooldown (when compared to a 1008 haste build) gets you another full-duration Metamorphosis cooldown in the encounter. If you're getting 3 Meta casts with the 1573 threshold and the 1008 threshold is getting 3 Meta casts over the life of the fight too, guess what, you lost DPS by swapping out mastery to reach that imaginary 1573 threshold. A two-minute Meta doesn't do anything for you if it doesn't get you an extra Metamorphosis cooldown!

Let's look at this from the standpoint of the standard length 450 second Simulation, ignoring the fact that 1573 haste doesn't guarantee you a 2 minute Meta and 1008 haste builds still hit the 2 minute cooldown with favorable RNG. Assuming the most favorable possible conditions for 1573 haste and the worst RNG for 1008 haste:



1573 Haste build with 565 less Mastery

0:00:00 Metamorphosis (Bloodlust)
2:00:00 Metamorphosis
4:00:00 Metamorphosis
6:00:00 Metamorphosis


1008 Haste Build with an additional 565 Mastery

0:00:00 Metamorphosis (Bloodlust)
2:00:00 Metamorphosis
4:30:00 Metamorphosis
7:00:00 Metamorphosis

That's four full cooldowns for both, and if you reached for that 1573 plateau you've just gimped yourself to the tune of 565 mastery. Unless you can guarantee you're getting in an extra Metamorphosis cooldown with 1573 haste when compared to 1008 haste, you're pissing into the wind.

This is all well and good, but you're completely ignoring the fact that haste will always provide more spell casts. Haste isn't just about getting ID procs and extra dot ticks. Have you actually tried taking a set of gear and testing the various reforging options on simulationcraft? Seriously, try it and see what happens.

I personally sit at 1742 Hit, 1573 Haste and 1714 Mastery. If I do a full mastery reforge on the default 7minute 30 second fight I lose dps, around 200 dps to be precise. If you shorten the fight, the full mastery profile performs better due to the higher doomguard uptime, but it's still behind the profile with 1573 haste by around 100 dps.

I personally found that going much higher on haste didn't provide a dps increase, and going much lower was a dps loss. Obviously the exact number 1573 isn't particularly important for a single target fight, but not every fight is single target. What happens when you're on ragnaros and you're trying to kill the Scions while preparing to enter phase 3 - you're multi-dotting immolate and the extra tick is pretty important. What happens on Beth, Alysrazor, Rhyolith, Normal Shannox when you have extra targets? Do you not multi-dot at all? What happens on staghelm heroic when your doomguard is a lower percentage of your dps? What happens when you use your doomguard in p3 of ragnaros and it's impossible to line up all your procs for it?

It just seems rather silly to suggest that just because on baleroc you get no extra metamorphosis and you don't need the immolate tick that haste is no longer useful. For one, it seems that neglecting haste does not help single target dps, atleast for my gear level (378 average with 4 piece), and secondly on all the fights that are NOT single target, or for fights that your doomguard are not quite as high percentage of your damage, haste is pretty damn good.

I am not saying that everyone should go for 1573 haste regardless of gear. There may be sets of gear available that make it very hard to maintain mastery whilst hit capping and maintaining 1573 haste. What I am saying is that for most people in firelands gear, stacking all-out mastery will not be the optimal path. For these people I am suggesting that 1573 is a good number to take because A) It will usually beat a full mastery profile and B) It provides significant multi-dotting benefits.

So, time to fix your quote.

I wish all this desperation to make haste irrelevant for Demonology would die out. I don't know if it's a function of people being stuck in the 'mastery is king' mindset, or if they're trying to legitimize stacking mastery because they don't want to actually test the stat values and resulting dps for themselves, but there just isn't an exact value of haste you need to reach, because in reality for single target you need a careful balance as the values of haste and mastery are actually very similar. If you want to shine on multi-target fights however, the 1573 haste value is extremely useful due to the increased multi-dotting potential.

You're welcome.

[Jahrastafari]

This is all well and good, but you're completely ignoring the fact that haste will always provide more spell casts. Haste isn't just about getting ID procs and extra dot ticks. Have you actually tried taking a set of gear and testing the various reforging options on simulationcraft? Seriously, try it and see what happens.

MASTERY OUTSCALES HASTE! Yes, haste provides more spell casts, and point-for-point that contributes less to DPS than mastery! Holy shit I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of the posts here.

I personally found that going much higher on haste didn't provide a dps increase, and going much lower was a dps loss.

If you have haste outscaling mastery and you're at 1008+ haste, it's time to update your simcraft to 420-9 and change your iterations to 10k.

It just seems rather silly to suggest that just because on baleroc you get no extra metamorphosis and you don't need the immolate tick that haste is no longer useful.

FFS, you don't get an extra Immolate tick at 1573. HoG refreshes the cast before you get the extra tick. Nobody is staying haste is useless, I'm saying that haste will always scale below mastery above 1008, and if you're looking at a sim where that isn't the case, you're probably running an old Simcraft version with a piss poor priority list. Holy shit, with 2500 mastery, 1080ish haste and 15% crit I'm looking at a 1.8 scale factor on mastery, a 1.4 scale factor on crit and a 1.1 scale factor on haste. I pick up DPS prioritizing mastery>crit>haste!

What happens when you're on ragnaros and you're trying to kill the Scions while preparing to enter phase 3 - you're multi-dotting immolate and the extra tick is pretty important.

An extra tick from an extra target DoT doesn't remotely cover the DPS loss from stacking a lower-scaling stat!

[Cracka_Bob]

MASTERY OUTSCALES HASTE! Yes, haste provides more spell casts, and point-for-point that contributes less to DPS than mastery! Holy shit I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of the posts here. If you have haste outscaling mastery and you're at 1008+ haste, it's time to update your simcraft to 420-9 and change your iterations to 10k. FFS, you don't get an extra Immolate tick at 1573. HoG refreshes the cast before you get the extra tick.

try explaining this to a guild leader (and demo warlock) who reforges out of mastery in favor of haste, doesnt play with ANY addons, and is comfortable sitting slightly above or below 17% when he can easily hit exactly 17% with his gear (which is ilvl 370-ish)

[avengingbt]

MASTERY OUTSCALES HASTE! Yes, haste provides more spell casts, and point-for-point that contributes less to DPS than mastery! Holy shit I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read some of the posts here.

Sigh. Some serious lack of understanding and reading comprehension failures here.

You're partially right, but the problem here is that you seem to assume that stat values stay static, this is not correct. Every time you gain or lose a stat point, the other stat values change ever so slightly. All stat values are dynamic. By pumping mastery up to 2.1k and dropping haste down to 1.1k, you'll find that the EP values shift significantly in the favour of haste. If you have 1.6k haste and 1.7k mastery, you're indeed correct that mastery will outshine all your other stats.

Finding the optimal dps setup is not about simming one set of gear, looking which stat gives the highest value and then stacking the hell out of that stat. It is about finding the optimal balance of stats that maximises the value of each stat.

If you have haste outscaling mastery and you're at 1008+ haste, it's time to update your simcraft to 420-9 and change your iterations to 10k.

EP values, whilst being useful in some regards, do not actually mean a great deal. Resulting DPS is the only stat that matters. The only way to accurately decide how to reforge is to test ALL reforging options. Take your gear, simulate it with full mastery. Take your gear again, simulate it reforged for 1573 haste. Use whichever set gives the highest dps. EP values are somewhat relavent in guiding you towards the correct stat, but the only thing that matters is the reforging option that provides the highest dps. For the record I usually run 10-25k iterations.

FFS, you don't get an extra Immolate tick at 1573. HoG refreshes the cast before you get the extra tick.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. On baleroc you do not need the extra immolate tick threshold (because it doesn't exist) but on multi-target fights you do (because it does exist). Understand?

An extra tick from an extra target DoT doesn't remotely cover the DPS loss from stacking a lower-scaling stat!

Perhaps not on one target (although that would have to be tested).

What you are ignoring is that a large percentage of the value of mastery comes from your doomguard.

The more targets you have, the higher your dps is, and as a result your doomguard does a lower percentage of your total dps. As a result, the value of mastery in relation to haste goes down. It's pretty basic math really.

EDIT: Just so you know, I used to also go for a full mastery reforge. Then I simmed myself with more haste and discovered that it was a dps gain.

[Jahrastafari]

You're partially right, but the problem here is that you seem to assume that stat values stay static, this is not correct. ...I used to also go for a full mastery reforge. Then I simmed myself with more haste and discovered that it was a dps gain.

I'd absolutely LOVE to see you show me a 420-9, 'Patchwerk,' 450 second (+-20%), 10k iteration, fully raid buffed reforge plot screenshot that has haste outscaling mastery above 1008, and the associated stats that generated that plot point. Take 10 minutes from talking down to me like I'm a child and run me a simulation, please. I know I've spent more than a fair amount of time simulating gear, stats and plot points in this tier, but maybe I do have it wrong. Educate me up, I'm not to proud to admit it when I may have missed something.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. On baleroc you do not need the extra immolate tick threshold (because it doesn't exist) but on multi-target fights you do (because it does exist). Understand?

The more targets you have, the higher your dps is, and as a result your doomguard does a lower percentage of your total dps. As a result, the value of mastery in relation to haste goes down. It's pretty basic math really.

And what fights, in the current tier, do you find yourself with lots of targets to DoT up besides the 30 seconds that two scions are up in Rags? Meter padding on H-Shannox? Beth'thilac? As Demonology, the bulk of your DPS on Beth'tilac should be coming on the back-end rather than spiderlings. H-Rhyolith? Yeah, you can DoT up both legs if you aren't driving, but the AoE opportunites for Meta should be your bread and butter. H-Alysrazor? If you aren't doing the vast majority of your DPS when she's grounded you need your head checked. H-Domo? Are the cats really living long enough to see that last Immolate tick? The "Patchwerk" simulation mode has never been more relevant in any tier than it is in this one.

[avengingbt]

Ok so.

1) My gear. Reforged Upto 1742 Hit, 1573 Haste, and the rest into mastery. It's nowhere near BiS, but it's fairly typical for a lock working on firelands in an average 3/7hc guild.

head=shadowflame_hood,type=cloth,ilevel=359,quality=epic,stats=1016armor_281int_512sta_208 mastery_188haste,gems=burning_shadowspirit_20int_20hit_30crit,enchant=60int_35crit
neck=amulet_of_burning_brilliance,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=227int_341sta_119hit_171cr it,reforge=crit_mastery
shoulders=balespiders_mantle,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=1043armor_282int_454 sta_201haste_183hit,reforge=haste_mastery,gems=20int_20mastery_10int,enchant=50int_25haste
shirt=formal_white_shirt,ilevel=1
chest=balespiders_robes,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=1391armor_368int_611sta_2 22hit_274haste,reforge=hit_mastery,gems=20int_20mastery_20int_20hit_20int,enchant=20all
waist=embereye_belt,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=782armor_282int_454sta_208cri t_172haste,reforge=crit_hit,gems=20int_20hit_67int_10int
legs=balespiders_leggings,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=1304armor_420i nt_689sta_301crit_271mastery,reforge=crit_hit,gems=67int_40int_20int,enchant=95int_80sta
feet=coalwalker_sandals,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=956armor_282int_454sta_20 8crit_172haste,reforge=crit_hit,gems=67int,enchant=35mastery
wrists=emberflame_bracers,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=608armor_227int_341sta_ 148hit_154mastery,enchant=50int
hands=balespiders_handwraps,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=869armor_282int_454st a_157hit_216haste,gems=20int_20hit_10int,enchant=65mastery
finger1=crystalline_brimstone_ring,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=227int_341sta_162hit_133m astery,reforge=hit_haste
finger2=crystal_prison_band,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=256int_384sta_183master y_150crit,reforge=crit_hit
trinket1=darkmoon_card_volcano,ilevel=359,quality=epic,stats=321mastery,reforge=mastery_hi t,equip=onspelldamage_1200+10fire_1600int_30%_12dur_45cd
trinket2=moonwell_chalice,ilevel=365,quality=epic,stats=340int,use=1700mastery_20dur_120cd
back=rippling_flamewrath_drape,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=695armor_227int_341sta_162has te_133hit,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=volcanospike,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=197int_296sta_119hit_139hast e_2636sp,reforge=hit_mastery,enchant=power_torrent,weapon=sword_1.60speed_348min_648max
off_hand=molten_scream,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=227int_341sta_156crit_144hit,reforge= crit_mastery,enchant=40int
ranged=stinger_of_the_flaming_scorpion,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=145int_217st a_102crit_87mastery,reforge=crit_haste

Here is my dps using the default demonology priority list from Simcraft 420-9:



Not particularly important, but I felt I should point out that the default Simcraft priority list is not the optimal priority list. There are a few changes you can make (such as smart BoD clipping) that will increase dps. But that will be our starting point - 32,440 dps

2) Now lets make some alterations. Using exactly the same set of gear/reforging etc, I edit the simcraft priorities in the following way:

actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
actions+=/fel_armor
actions+=/summon_felguard,if=cooldown.demon_soul.remains<5&cooldown.metamorphosis.remains<5&!pet.fel guard.active
actions+=/dark_intent
actions+=/soulburn,if=!in_combat
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/use_item,name=moonwell_chalice,if=cooldown.metamorphosis.remains=0|cooldown.metamorphosis. remains>cooldown
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.metamorphosis.up|!in_combat
actions+=/metamorphosis,if=buff.moonwell_chalice.up&pet.felguard.active
actions+=/demon_soul,if=buff.metamorphosis.up
actions+=/summon_doomguard,if=time>10
actions+=/felguard:felstorm
actions+=/soulburn,if=pet.felguard.active&!pet.felguard.dot.felstorm.ticking
actions+=/summon_felhunter,if=!pet.felguard.dot.felstorm.ticking&pet.felguard.active
actions+=/immolate,if=!ticking&target.time_to_die>=4&miss_react
actions+=/bane_of_doom,if=target.time_to_die>=15&miss_react&(!ticking|(remains<45&buff.metamorphosis .up))
actions+=/corruption,if=(remains<tick_time|!ticking)&target.time_to_die>=6&miss_react
actions+=/hand_of_guldan
actions+=/shadowflame
actions+=/immolation_aura,if=buff.metamorphosis.remains>10
actions+=/shadow_bolt,if=buff.shadow_trance.react
actions+=/incinerate,if=buff.molten_core.react
actions+=/soul_fire,if=buff.decimation.up
actions+=/life_tap,if=mana_pct<=30&buff.bloodlust.down&buff.metamorphosis.down&buff.demon_soul_felgu ard.down
actions+=/shadow_bolt
actions+=/life_tap,moving=1,if=mana_pct<80&mana_pct<target.health_pct
actions+=/fel_flame,moving=1
actions+=/life_tap

This results in the following dps:



A clear improvement. Our new benchmark is 32,904 dps

3) Now we have established the best way to play (and btw, please feel free to let me know if you know of any further improvements that can be made to the priority list), let's try reforging for mastery. In the next simulation I used a reforge optimisation website in order to calculate the best way to reforge, assuming that mastery is actually my best stat. This changes my gear in the following way:

head=shadowflame_hood,type=cloth,ilevel=359,quality=epic,stats=1016armor_281int_512sta_208 mastery_188haste,reforge=haste_hit,gems=burning_shadowspirit_20int_20hit_30crit,enchant=60 int_35crit
neck=amulet_of_burning_brilliance,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=227int_341sta_119hit_171cr it,reforge=crit_mastery
shoulders=balespiders_mantle,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=1043armor_282int_454 sta_201haste_183hit,reforge=haste_mastery,gems=20int_20mastery_10int,enchant=50int_25haste
shirt=formal_white_shirt,ilevel=1
chest=balespiders_robes,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=1391armor_368int_611sta_2 22hit_274haste,reforge=haste_mastery,gems=20int_20mastery_20int_20hit_20int,enchant=20all
waist=embereye_belt,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=782armor_282int_454sta_208cri t_172haste,reforge=crit_hit,gems=20int_20hit_67int_10int
legs=balespiders_leggings,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=1304armor_420i nt_689sta_301crit_271mastery,reforge=crit_hit,gems=67int_40int_20int,enchant=95int_80sta
feet=coalwalker_sandals,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=956armor_282int_454sta_20 8crit_172haste,reforge=crit_mastery,gems=67int,enchant=35mastery
wrists=emberflame_bracers,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=608armor_227int_341sta_ 148hit_154mastery,enchant=50int
hands=balespiders_handwraps,type=cloth,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=869armor_282int_454st a_157hit_216haste,reforge=haste_mastery,gems=20int_20hit_10int,enchant=65mastery
finger1=crystalline_brimstone_ring,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=227int_341sta_162hit_133m astery,reforge=hit_haste
finger2=crystal_prison_band,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=256int_384sta_183master y_150crit,reforge=crit_hit
trinket1=darkmoon_card_volcano,ilevel=359,quality=epic,stats=321mastery,equip=onspelldamag e_1200+10fire_1600int_30%_12dur_45cd
trinket2=moonwell_chalice,ilevel=365,quality=epic,stats=340int,use=1700mastery_20dur_120cd
back=rippling_flamewrath_drape,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=695armor_227int_341sta_162has te_133hit,reforge=haste_mastery,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=volcanospike,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=197int_296sta_119hit_139hast e_2636sp,reforge=haste_mastery,enchant=power_torrent,weapon=sword_1.60speed_348min_648max
off_hand=molten_scream,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=227int_341sta_156crit_144hit,reforge= crit_mastery,enchant=40int
ranged=stinger_of_the_flaming_scorpion,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=145int_217st a_102crit_87mastery,reforge=crit_haste

The resulting stats were 1741 hit, 1184 haste, and 2104 mastery. This results in the following dps:



Clearly a dps loss. The mastery profile dropped my dps down to 32,784 dps, which is a loss of 120 dps

All simulations were done using the same gear, just with a modified priority list in order to increase dps, and two different reforging profiles. All three tests were done with a fight length of 450+-20% as requested, and with 10k iterations each.

I can't really make it any clearer. Reforging for full mastery, even in a patchwerk simulation, is not the optimal way to play. Take into account that on multiple fights in firelands there are multiple targets, or that you use your doomguard later in the fight resulting in a sub-optimally buffed doomguard, and it should be fairly clear that going full mastery is not the best way to reforge.

Hope this is enough proof.

[Palmz]

Jahrastafari, the extra immolation tick DOES exist in single target fights. Just because HOG does a hard refresh you won't see the extra tick but indeed you still are getting an extra tick. The extra immolate tick is still a dps increase for single target fights. For a spell that does 10%+ of your overall dmg or second to Shadow bolts, yes! 1573 is a good number to go for.

[avengingbt]

Jahrastafari, the extra immolation tick DOES exist in single target fights. Just because HOG does a hard refresh you won't see the extra tick but indeed you still are getting an extra tick. The extra immolate tick is still a dps increase for single target fights. For a spell that does 10%+ of your overall dmg or second to Shadow bolts, yes! 1573 is a good number to go for.

The point is that on single target, there's essentially no difference between 1572 and 1573 haste because you never let the dot expire, whereas on a multi-target fight where you cannot use HoG on every target, having a longer duration DoT with an extra tick is actually incredibly useful.

[Palmz]

The thresholds increase the frequency of ticks so It doesn't matter even if the dots get refreshed. There is a big difference if you have 1572 haste. You will still get extra ticks regardless of it being refreshed by HOG with 1573.

[Penguin FTW]

You're partially right, but the problem here is that you seem to assume that stat values stay static, this is not correct. Every time you gain or lose a stat point, the other stat values change ever so slightly. All stat values are dynamic. By pumping mastery up to 2.1k and dropping haste down to 1.1k, you'll find that the EP values shift significantly in the favour of haste. If you have 1.6k haste and 1.7k mastery, you're indeed correct that mastery will outshine all your other stats.

This is the main reason for the 1573 haste, really.

You want some moderation in stats (to a point), and 1573 is just a good number to aim for to keep haste in a moderate amount while still being able to stack mastery.

[avengingbt]

The thresholds increase the frequency of ticks so It doesn't matter even if the dots get refreshed. There is a big difference if you have 1572 haste. You will still get extra ticks regardless of it being refreshed by HOG with 1573.

Yeah I'm aware of that, having extra haste will always provide extra casts and dot ticks, and haste still holds a decent value in this way.

My point was just that 1573 is not a special number for single target dps. The reason people stop at 1573 has nothing to do with single target fights. Luckily it does indeed result in an almost optimal amount of haste for single target dps, but the main reason to stop at precisely 1573 instead of 1572 haste is for the multi-dotting efficiency.

[Palmz]

Right, and that's all true. I am just backing up the truth against Jahrastafari's idea of the 1573 haste threshold being useless for single target because of the HOG refresh. It still is a decent dps increase in a single target fight.

[Jahrastafari]

Ok so.......

I'm showing something wildly different for your first simulation. Still parsing the rest.

[avengingbt]

I'm showing something wildly different for your first simulation.

Yeah, that's my fault, I should have mentioned the following things:

1) The char I used is a worgen, so obviously the racials are different to yours (You simmed as an orc)
2) I did not include warlocks chaining DI to eachother. I felt that this was a fairly unrealistic option so I left that buff turned off. I did of course leave DI in my priority list to simulate casting it on the Priest/Druid of your choice
3) I did not include focus magic. Again, this seems like an unreliable buff that most warlocks will not be able to get so I left it out.

Obviously these do affect the results, but I felt these were the most realistic conditions for the majority of warlocks (myself included).

[Jahrastafari]

Yeah, that's my fault, I should have mentioned the following things:

1) The class is a worgen, so obviously the racials are different to yours (You simmed as an orc)
2) I did not include warlocks chaining DI to eachother. I felt that this was a fairly unrealistic option so I left that buff turned off. I did of course leave DI in my priority list to simulate casting it on the Priest/Druid of your choice
3) I did not include focus magic. Again, this seems like an unreliable buff that most warlocks will not be able to get so I left it out.

Obviously these do affect the results, but I felt these were the most realistic conditions for the majority of warlocks (myself included).

You have 'Blood_Fury' in your action list.

Warlock don't DI each other, mine is off too.

[avengingbt]

You have 'Blood_Fury' in your action list.

Warlock don't DI each other, mine is off too.

Yeah I'm aware of that. It's just incase somebody wants to use that priority list with an orc. If you use it as a non-orc it will still simulate the char, but will return:

Player attempting to execute action blood_fury while not being a orc.

It makes no real difference whether the line is there or not when using a worgen.