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  1. #21
    Brewmaster Marxman's Avatar
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    I have no interest whatsoever in hardcore progression raiding anymore. The hard mode philosophy of WoW since the beginning of Wrath has simply left a bad taste in my mouth, and I am well-known within my progression guild as "that casual guy who refuses to do hard modes on principal". I see no satisfaction out of killing a boss a 2nd time with some meaningless mechanic tacked onto it to make it artificially difficult.

    If SWTOR wants to have hardcore raiding, it needs to follow the vanilla/BC WoW model. No hard modes, just 1 difficulty with bosses getting more difficult the deeper into an instance you get. Hard modes killed the "prestige" from raiding. That feeling you got after killing a new boss and going to stand on the ironforge bridge to show off your newly acquired gear. WoW has lost that entirely, and I'm hoping SWTOR brings it back.

    ... I kinda got off topic. Whatever.

  2. #22
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    I have no interest whatsoever in hardcore progression raiding anymore. The hard mode philosophy of WoW since the beginning of Wrath has simply left a bad taste in my mouth, and I am well-known within my progression guild as "that casual guy who refuses to do hard modes on principal". I see no satisfaction out of killing a boss a 2nd time with some meaningless mechanic tacked onto it to make it artificially difficult.

    If SWTOR wants to have hardcore raiding, it needs to follow the vanilla/BC WoW model. No hard modes, just 1 difficulty with bosses getting more difficult the deeper into an instance you get. Hard modes killed the "prestige" from raiding. That feeling you got after killing a new boss and going to stand on the ironforge bridge to show off your newly acquired gear. WoW has lost that entirely, and I'm hoping SWTOR brings it back.

    ... I kinda got off topic. Whatever.
    It likely won't be bringing that back. They already said there will be the normal difficulty which is meant for the "lower" end groups like PUGs and then there will be the hardcore heroic mode. I wouldn't expect to see the "one mode" raid system in any mainstream MMO in the near future as it simply isn't want the playerbase wants. The majority of the playerbase wants to see the content regardless of ability. Bioware would be incredibly stupid to do that. WoW knows that they have already alienated many people with how hard they made normals in T11. They reeled that back in with T12's reduced normal difficulty and now even more with T13's intro of LFR.

    And lets be honest, the prestige of raiding is hardly on boss kills now. It is on the number in line you were for that boss kill, the number of ilvl's your gear has, and the numbers that show up in the DPS report. TOR isn't stopping those from continuing. Sure raiding could return to "I've killed 4H so I am better than you will ever be" days of Vanilla WoW, but why alienate 95% of the playerbase?

  3. #23
    Why does it matter if bad players get gear? This isn't 2004 when players were satisfied with just being able to level reliably. In any RPG, players get frustrated when they stop progressing. At max level, this means new gear.

    Thinking about my years in WoW, I had the most fun was playing with some motivated but mediocre players. I really hope TOR makes it possible for me to carry players. Ultimately, people are more fun than content. Increasing difficulty decreases the number of potential friends and increases churn.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres."

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Osskssa View Post
    I just hope that there isnt a welfare epix fiasco like in WotLK....in wow vanilla anyone who had top gear, you knew they had ''earned'' it by raiding a fairly difficult place. I hope the ''epic'' quality gear only comes from raids and top end crafting, im not one for all the free gear for ''casuals''
    While I am a fairly progressive end-game player myself, much more hardcore than casual.... I have one response to your statement:

    I hope they don't give "free gear to the hardcore".

    cwutididthar?

    A casual works for their gear, just like Hardcore players do. The difference should be implemented in the gear, NOT whether or not you can actually get any. You may simply think the Troll Dungeons in WoW are "free gear for casuals" when, in fact, most of those casuals may actually be putting in quite a bit of effort to obtain that gear. Meanwhile, pre-nerf, you may have been sitting in front of them in SW/Org with a ton of 378 gear, and them drooling over your gear, but likewise they may be thinking:

    "Sheesh, why does Blizz just give all this free gear to people who have ten times the amount of time to sink into the game as I do?"

    Relax. You haven't played the game, Blizzard is simply stepping on eggshells with ANY decision they make because they have such a wide and varied playerbase... so any decision made in terms of gear, progression, PvP, PvE, lore, accessibility etc... is going to be wrong to one group or another. The same rule will be in effect for SW: ToR, the best you can do is play your own way, and not worry about who is above or below you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

  5. #25
    High Overlord Rexter2k5's Avatar
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    Creating two types or even three types of a raid boss is fine. It's when doing that lowest difficulty gets you some of the highest gear that pisses me off. Gear level shouldn't exist, if you do an easy mode raid, you don't get purples, only by doing the highest difficulty should you receive purples.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebbikenezer View Post
    While I am a fairly progressive end-game player myself, much more hardcore than casual.... I have one response to your statement:

    I hope they don't give "free gear to the hardcore".

    cwutididthar?
    Since you mention WoW, I was turned off with raiding in Cataclysm. Mainly because, I had gotten epics through other means - Buying epics @ the AH, getting reputation epics, and crafting epics.

    When I did eventually get a raiding guild, the rewards were the same quality (no upgrade).

    I would rather see the rewards from casual activities be under raiding quality.

    In past WoW expansions I would get all I could get from casual content and then use that to get a group/guild to get better stuff from raiding... if casual-gear and raiding-gear are the same, then it just kills alot of motivation to even raid at all. Cataclysm killed alot of desire to progress with that expansion (for other reasons too not mentioned), and I hope I don't see that again.

  7. #27
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karteli View Post
    Since you mention WoW, I was turned off with raiding in Cataclysm. Mainly because, I had gotten epics through other means - Buying epics @ the AH, getting reputation epics, and crafting epics.

    When I did eventually get a raiding guild, the rewards were the same quality (no upgrade).

    I would rather see the rewards from casual activities be under raiding quality.

    In past WoW expansions I would get all I could get from casual content and then use that to get a group/guild to get better stuff from raiding... if casual-gear and raiding-gear are the same, then it just kills alot of motivation to even raid at all. Cataclysm killed alot of desire to progress with that expansion (for other reasons too not mentioned), and I hope I don't see that again.
    The lesson of this post is that the poster doesn't like raiding but wants to feel forced to do it.....
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  8. #28
    Oh, I completely agree that raiding gear, hard mode raiding gear, and 4 man/crafted gear all need to be of different quality. I was mostly just put off by the fact that so many people think casuals get "free gear". You're not them, you don't know how much work they put into getting their gear.

    As an afterthought: YES, I want to be rewarded better for more work/effort and better play, BUT I don't think ANYONE else should be punished for that.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    The lesson of this post is that the poster doesn't like raiding but wants to feel forced to do it.....
    Not forced, but rather rewarded for raiding.

    In itself, the progression I mentioned allows casual players to be entered into raiding, by upping their gear first through other means like reputation and crafting. After upping their gear they stand a better chance of success with raiding (and subsequently get better rewards).

    This does not affect the hardcore, who will be very clever, patient, and coordinated to defeat content while skipping the casual portion of gear progression.

  10. #30
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karteli View Post
    Not forced, but rather rewarded for raiding.

    In itself, the progression I mentioned allows casual players to be entered into raiding, by upping their gear first through other means like reputation and crafting. After upping their gear they stand a better chance of success with raiding (and subsequently get better rewards).

    This does not affect the hardcore, who will be very clever, patient, and coordinated to defeat content while skipping the casual portion of gear progression.
    The reward for raiding should be raiding itself and having content for a large group. If you need special incentives above and beyond that, then you're doing it wrong and propigating the continued failure of the EQ paradigm.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    The reward for raiding should be raiding itself and having content for a large group.
    I know what you are saying and it does make sense. But making that assumption (IMO) is a factor to what made WoW raiding lackluster. However I expect SWTOR to be fun, given the people who made it, and I'm sure people will in fact raid regardless of what they want / already have. What people end up dreaming about how things should go will probably come later (specific to TOR).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    If you need special incentives above and beyond that, then you're doing it wrong and propigating the continued failure of the EQ paradigm.
    I think their philosophy was a success. Getting stronger to get stuff to make you even stronger to beat stronger encounters is the heart of RPG's and MUD's. Can't get around that. I assure you that is what some people want.
    Last edited by Karteli; 2011-09-27 at 10:31 PM.

  12. #32
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karteli View Post
    I know what you are saying and it does make sense. But making that assumption (IMO) is a factor to what made WoW raiding lackluster. However I expect SWTOR to be fun, given the people who made it, and I'm sure people will in fact raid regardless of what they want / already have.


    I think their philosophy was a success. Getting stronger to get stuff to make you even stronger to beat stronger encounters is the heart of RPG's and MUD's. Can't get around that. I assure you that is what some people want.
    No problem with that, but there needs to be more routes to do it other than raiding. Lots of people make the mistake of thinking that MMO means massive group, it doesn't. That's something that EQ started. Even most MUDs capped the player group at 10 or 15 due to networking and software limitations. (Most were free and programmed as a hobby...)

    The current paradigm filters everyone into the large group for the ultimate encounters of the game. This is both damaging and limiting in the overall content created by the developer. Where Blizzard has screwed up by forcing the lesser raid progressed into and endless cycle of point grinding to supplement their character progression, a more spread out method is the more appropriate. Leaving certain slots to raiding, some to crafting, and some to small grouping.

    No one should ever be the answer, but all should become part of the character development as a whole. EQ and WoW have generated a player type called the "raid logger." Players that you never see on line, with the exception of 30 minutes before and after a scheduled raid. These players only take advantage of a small % of the overall development of the game, and are frequently the most vocal about their content. (Some PVPers aside.) In many cases, the 25 man members of that player type get away with considerably less effort and time spent than their small group and crafting equals, yet are rewarded far greater.


    Reward players for effort and time spent developing their characters, not the nitch' gaming style they perfer.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  13. #33
    I think this area will be if swtor will succeed or fail. I mean ofcourse it will be their end game questing and story such. But a ton of ppl love raiding. So far the operations look pretty fun. Of course, I won't know till i actually play it. So as long as Bioware keeps raiding fun and fast paced and give regular new operations to do, then the game should last for a long long time. Myself, this is the area I am looking forward to the most. The story and questing at 50 will keep people there for awhile, but the pvp and operations will keep ppl long term. Pvp, by looking at videos from cons, looks to be really fun and operations the same. I foresee them succeeding and keeping ppl playing for years to come.

  14. #34
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colester View Post
    I think this area will be if swtor will succeed or fail. I mean ofcourse it will be their end game questing and story such. But a ton of ppl love raiding. So far the operations look pretty fun. Of course, I won't know till i actually play it. So as long as Bioware keeps raiding fun and fast paced and give regular new operations to do, then the game should last for a long long time. Myself, this is the area I am looking forward to the most. The story and questing at 50 will keep people there for awhile, but the pvp and operations will keep ppl long term. Pvp, by looking at videos from cons, looks to be really fun and operations the same. I foresee them succeeding and keeping ppl playing for years to come.

    I'm planning on creating an "end game" digest for when the NDA is released. I've got a TON of data on my computer already, so after this test cycles raids are over, I'm hoping to have videos and such ready. Can't say much beyond pointing you to the video for EV.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    No problem with that, but there needs to be more routes to do it other than raiding. Lots of people make the mistake of thinking that MMO means massive group, it doesn't. That's something that EQ started. Even most MUDs capped the player group at 10 or 15 due to networking and software limitations. (Most were free and programmed as a hobby...)
    MMO = massively Multiplayer Online ... MO = Multiplayer Online. I had to clarify that.

    Regarding MUD's, the ones I played did not have caps, if more people did the same activity, the game slowed down, but didn't prevent anyone from doing anything, and didn't crash. Not sure what you mean't by networking limitations of 10-15 people, it was all through Telnet - it would slow the crap out of the game if 200 people were logged on, but it was still playable. Diku was my favored MUD, maybe you are talking about another one.

    edit: the good MUD's operating off donations (or wealthy operators) did not have this problem, they could run fully functional with hundreds of players, without any noticable lag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    The current paradigm filters everyone into the large group for the ultimate encounters of the game. This is both damaging and limiting in the overall content created by the developer. Where Blizzard has screwed up by forcing the lesser raid progressed into and endless cycle of point grinding to supplement their character progression, a more spread out method is the more appropriate. Leaving certain slots to raiding, some to crafting, and some to small grouping.
    I've been in that boat before. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. I'd rather do lesser activities to boost my character than to just be grandfathered into end game raiding because I pay my bills.

    It gives me something to strive towards. I'm not a particularly awesome player, and I probably would need those extra boosts from casual material, like reputations and crafting before graduating to raiding. But raiding should be an upgrade to what I have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    No one should ever be the answer, but all should become part of the character development as a whole. EQ and WoW have generated a player type called the "raid logger." Players that you never see on line, with the exception of 30 minutes before and after a scheduled raid. These players only take advantage of a small % of the overall development of the game, and are frequently the most vocal about their content. (Some PVPers aside.) In many cases, the 25 man members of that player type get away with considerably less effort and time spent than their small group and crafting equals, yet are rewarded far greater.
    I never have seen this "raid logger" until WoW .. and I played EQ since 1999. Can you give a source for this term, because I think, if the term exists, WoW coined it. How do you know they are the frequently most vocal people? And saying the 25's spend considerably less time ... unless you can provide proof, you realize those are just speculative details pulled from nowhere?
    Last edited by Karteli; 2011-09-27 at 11:20 PM.

  16. #36
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    I never have seen this "raid logger" until WoW .. and I played EQ since 1999. Can you give a source for this term, because I think, if the term exists, WoW coined it. How do you know they are the frequently most vocal people? And saying the 25's spend considerably less time ... unless you can provide proof, you realize those are just speculative details pulled from nowhere?
    The proof is just personal experience since playing EQ myself as long as you have. It's obviously dependant on server, but even in the early days of GUIMUDS, you had people that had to be called to log on when a mob spawned. We called them raid loggers back in 01'...

    Time spent is simple, a full clear (once learned) of FLs gives 378 gear in about 4 hours.
    A small group player is capped at 365/limited VP gear for about twice that time of effort spent between ZG/ZA and MF.

    This is by my observations. Of course if you're on a more progressed server, these observations differ. There is no such thing as
    speculation when you've seen it happen, it them becomes observable and can be defined as relative fact, within your level of experience.


    Saying you must have the carrot, means that you aren't enjoying the game, you're feeding an addiction. Much like a gambler will go for that jack-pot carrot.
    If you need to be rewarded greater for raiding, then you ultimately don't enjoy it enough to actually do it. As the reward and carrot for raiding is killing the bosses and seeing the content, not getting better gear. The gear UGs are intended to be a means to an ends, not an incentive. Too many players don't understand this. If you like gear and character progression, do what you enjoy, don't be relegated to what the game says you have to.
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  17. #37
    I just really hope they dont follow WoWs system of pigeonholeing everyone into a couple of dungeons and one raid for months on end, while making everything else obselete. I would like the progression to remain. This is particularly important when story is involved.

    My Radio Broadcast: http://grooveshark.com/#!/dookleeto/broadcast feel free to come and listen

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    The proof is just personal experience since playing EQ myself as long as you have. It's obviously dependant on server, but even in the early days of GUIMUDS, you had people that had to be called to log on when a mob spawned. We called them raid loggers back in 01'...
    Sounds like "Raid Loggers" is specific to you then

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    There is no such thing as speculation when you've seen it happen, it them becomes observable and can be defined as relative fact, within your level of experience.
    It becomes your opinion, largely because its situational to you, and you alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan View Post
    Saying you must have the carrot, means that you aren't enjoying the game, you're feeding an addiction. Much like a gambler will go for that jack-pot carrot.
    If you need to be rewarded greater for raiding, then you ultimately don't enjoy it enough to actually do it. As the reward and carrot for raiding is killing the bosses and seeing the content, not getting better gear. The gear UGs are intended to be a means to an ends, not an incentive. Too many players don't understand this. If you like gear and character progression, do what you enjoy, don't be relegated to what the game says you have to.
    Negative I see an optional crafting + reputation gear leading into raids. It's not a carrot on a stick, it's optional.

    I do see progression as a sequence of events .. do A then B then C then D ...instead of A then D. It gives more stuff that players need to do (except for the hardcore who skip alot, explained earlier). I actually like more things to do, and would prefer the B & C.

    This conversation sort of started from a discussion of WoW, and I still feel that by allowing players to have raid gear without actually raiding is bad.

    Take WoW, they pushed players from A to D, which is not good for casuals. Even if you have the gear for "D" what good is it?

  19. #39
    The Patient Gavan's Avatar
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    @Karteli,

    Opinion is opinion. I have mine, you have yours. Neither of us are happy with how Blizzard has handled end game though, obviously others aren't either.

    You missed my quantum physics reference with the obervable being defined as fact... very disappointed....
    Once we gathered friends together, drank a ton of Mountain Dew and beer, and role played with paper, pencils, and books.
    Now I log onto MMOs with the same people and we only talk about how hard we PWNed that: Noob, boss, etc.
    I hate modern gaming....

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    I have no interest whatsoever in hardcore progression raiding anymore. The hard mode philosophy of WoW since the beginning of Wrath has simply left a bad taste in my mouth, and I am well-known within my progression guild as "that casual guy who refuses to do hard modes on principal". I see no satisfaction out of killing a boss a 2nd time with some meaningless mechanic tacked onto it to make it artificially difficult.

    If SWTOR wants to have hardcore raiding, it needs to follow the vanilla/BC WoW model. No hard modes, just 1 difficulty with bosses getting more difficult the deeper into an instance you get. Hard modes killed the "prestige" from raiding. That feeling you got after killing a new boss and going to stand on the ironforge bridge to show off your newly acquired gear. WoW has lost that entirely, and I'm hoping SWTOR brings it back.

    agree 100%. however, this is really not going to be the case in swtor from what i've heard so far.


    EDIT:
    when i first started raiding (vanilla) i was in a terrible guild that only ever got to do mc. i didnt mind missing bwl/aq/naxx, i was in awe of the people that had dedicated the time to do it, and it made the very few epics that i did get mean a lot more to me.

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