Need help with our holy pally.

[Deathzero]

So our holy pally just is not performing to the standard we expect. He is a trial and we are willing to give him a week. I just want to know what advice should be given to him.

Here is a major domo log there are a few others around on the calendar as well
Pally is Judgment.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2...?s=3935&e=4340


P.s - Our healing core is quite weak since we just switched to 25 and lost our good pally to RL.

[Deleted]

on that fight a paladin wont be top healing, but he should 100% be doing way more healing then he is. in the scorpion phase tell him to crusader strike EVERY cd to gain an extra holy power an holy shock every cd then use light of dawn 3 stacks this will stack very fast, always tell him to combine spells like divine favor an holy raidence, wings an holy raidence should help him a good bit.

p.s if anything u should be worried about ur shamans healing, he should way way up there with the top druid

[Taygete]

I can't see that he's doing anything particularly really wrong... I mean the hps is low, but with that much damage and that many healers that are more efficient at healing raid wide aoe, your hps is just going to get squished. I would be more concerned with the underperforming druids/shaman, than the paladin... on that fight anyway.

There is always what the poster above me said about getting the most out of your cds, plus maybe he is holding back if there just isn't a whole lot to heal.

Do you really need 7 healers? Is the paladin assigned to mainly tank healing? Both of these questions matter when you're looking at a healing meter.

*edit* IDK he's low on almost all of your fights... maybe he just isn't pushing himself and healing enough... his haste is kinda low, so it's possible his heals are getting sniped by hots and faster healers in general.

[Jeffari]

Let's take a look at his character first. His haste rating is way too low. You can never really have too much spirit but he should be reforging into some more haste over spirit at this point. Spec looks fine, I'd use the light of dawn glyph of holy wrath, only reason I can see using that is for rag adds.

-Paladins gain mana back from judging so for someone who is so conscious about his mana, he barely made use of judge during that fight. He did a total of 24 judges over the course of 6 mins 45 seconds. Judge has a 8 second cooldown but lets say you get 1 off every 10 seconds, that's a total 40 judges that should be going off. Judgement gives us 15% of our base mana back so (23422x0.15) = 3513.3 mana back per judge. He missed a total of 16 Judge's which more or less resulted in 56,212 mana he did not make use of.

-He didn't use any potions. I always pre pot with a volcanic potion when healing and use a concentration potion during fight.

-The logs say he never used avenging wrath, divine favor or divine plea???? Two HUGE paladin buffs that assist with healing. Using both topped with holy radiance with allow some big healing. Every 5% of haste we get, holy radiance gets another tick of healing. With divine favor up (20% haste buff) we'd get an extra 4 ticks which is beyond good for this fight.

-Doesn't use divine light enough. I find on most fights this will be my #1 heal. Tell him to take flash of light off his bar and never stop casting holy light, even if its overhealing.

A few things that need tweaking but I think if he has the drive to do some research on his own you should keep him. There are a lot of haste pieces he's missing, along with 4 piece.

[Taygete]

Let's take a look at his character first. His haste rating is way too low. You can never really have too much spirit but he should be reforging into some more haste over spirit at this point. Spec looks fine, I'd use the light of dawn glyph of holy wrath, only reason I can see using that is for rag adds.

I think this is spot on, it just looks like too much of his gear has no haste on it until he reforges... and his reforging is fine, it's just that having so much gear with zero base haste on it really hurts. In his case, I would reforge the spirit on his trinket to haste, and consider dropping some of his crit/mastery gear for gear with some real haste on it... ilvl isn't everything.

And no DP or wrath is just... bad. Sorry I missed that, need to L2 read WoL more carefully.

[Tiberria]

- Low active time - He has about 5% less active time than most of the other healers. Holy Pallies should be always chain casting. If there is nothing else to cast, Holy Light/Holy Shock are still worth casting at full overheal for procs.
-Not using Guardian of Ancient Kings - this does a huge amount of healing on regular Domo if used appropriately on scorpion slashes
-Not enough Divine Light usage or even Holy Light usage- 15 Divine Lights, 18 Holy Lights on a 7 minute fight. That is absolutely terrible. It looks like he is just using HR on cooldown, Holy Shock on near CD (his HS usage is pretty decent) and then kind of just standing there. He should be pushing a lot more direct single target healing
-He didn't use Aura Mastery once. This is inexcusable on regular Domo; it should be used on Scorpion slashes. He also did not use Hand of Sacrifice at all
-Not using Divine Plea. Did not use it once. This can easily be used during cat phase when damage is low. He probably didn't need to use it, because he wasn't using Divine Light much to at all, so wasn't actually using any mana.
-88% conviction uptime is pretty poor on this fight.

Major reason his output is terrible is he isn't pushing his mana pool at all. He should be liberally using Divine Light and make smart use of Divine Plea to ensure he doesn't go OOM.

[Kurzior]

I don't know if I agree with the commens about haste, unless he's reforged his gear in the last 10 minutes or so. My holy pally runs about 1400 rating (about 25 points more than he does) and I'm never seeing such low HPS on any fights. Keep in mind, the haste shown on armory doesn't account for the 9% haste buff we have in if we keep Judgements of the Pure up, plus 5% raid haste. Fully buffed, he'll sit around 28-29% which should be plenty. Bottom line, I don't really see any problems with his gearing.

Also, there's very little problem with is spell selection other than he should be judging more frequently. I honestly think it just comes down to the fact that, running 7 healers, you're going to have them stepping on each other's feet. Looking at his overhealing, this really seems to be the case. It's less noticeable on your Alys kill and Rag attempts, but he's having a lot of heals partially wasted, especially on Domo and Beth, which is to be expected. That said, his numbers on Beth are noticeably higher because he gets to spend the first half of the fight without other healers beating him to the heal.

Looking at your boss kills and excluding Rag attempts, look at how often anyone died. On Beth'tilac - 1 death, the cat druid dying because he ran into a pack of spiderlings who ate him. Alys - 2 deaths, spriest getting hit by fire and warlock falling out of the sky. Domo - 1 death, spriest standing in fire. Bottom line, your healing setup is keeping everyone alive who isn't taking avoidable damage, and the ones who are gettting hit still live most of the time. This tells me one thing, that you are running too many healers or heavily overgearing the fights. Neither of these are horrible things, but don't expect everyone to be pulling the same HPS numbers when the damage just isn't there for him to heal.

Edit: Ask him about his healing mentality on these fights. Personally, in his position, I would have tried harder to pull more impressive numbers while trying out for a raid spot, but think about it from a pure healing perspective: Overhealing is a waste of time/mana, if the damage isn't there to be healed, there's no reason to bother. Casting on targets at 95% health is a waste too, unless its just topping off with HS. Why bother casting DL when its going to be a 5k heal with 30k overheal? The idea of triage is all about not healing when you don't have to, so that you have the ability to burst heals when its needed. Don't be too hard on him just because burst situation never came up.

[Deathzero]

Shaman was kicked so right now we are just running this
Unkind - holy/disc priest
nakid - holy/disc priest
Judgment - pally
drakthorne - resto druid

Sometimes - Icaunus resto druid

I really need 2 more solid healers lol.

Issues with our comp are. We are progressing into 25 mans from 10's so still struggling to find 25 competent people. Most of the dps and tanks are heavily out gearing normals. I guess we can try 4-5 healers tonight to see how it goes.

[Tiberria]

Holy Paladins that are going with the standard spirit/haste itemization should be gearing for at least 1861 haste for the 14th Holy Radiance tick. You are losing a lot of output by not being geared to at least that haste point, and as long as you are in a 360+ gear level, it is easily attainable. In some cases that means using lower ilevel gear. For example, I am sitting on 391 boots in my bags and using 378 spirit/haste craftables until I can get either the Alysrazor chest or 391 Tier gloves, because using the 391 boots puts me about 100 below the 1861 threshold and is not worth the ilevel upgrade. I really don't like or buy the "his healing is low because he was being sniped and overhealing and there was nothing to heal and noone died argument". That could be applied to every other healer in the raid too; they were able to outperform him. That type of argument is what a lot of bad healers use to justify performance to themselves. If he continues his playstyle into hard modes and progression, it will cause wipes.

[Deleted]

Shaman was kicked so right now we are just running this
Unkind - holy/disc priest
nakid - holy/disc priest
Judgment - pally
drakthorne - resto druid

Sometimes - Icaunus resto druid

I really need 2 more solid healers lol.

Issues with our comp are. We are progressing into 25 mans from 10's so still struggling to find 25 competent people. Most of the dps and tanks are heavily out gearing normals. I guess we can try 4-5 healers tonight to see how it goes.

So you got 2 priests and 2 druids and 1 pally atm. My suggestion is to link him this threath or explain yourself the advice he needs to do to improve himself. After that assign him to only tank healing with aoe backup since with 4 aoe healers he really cant even compete with those so Hps aint the issue. What ive noticed from that log link he is actually 2nd in hps even just behind resto druid or priest. So he aint that bad. Majordomo is just "bad" fight for paladins we just cant fight against others in that fight if they are doing it right. And most important is the fact the only wipes you hade was on ragnaros and in those he was your 2nd best healer (if only looks hps) so you need to talk to other healers too. I dont go and say anything about the gear/gemming/reforges ect since all that is allready posted. That´s my 2 cents

[Kurzior]

Holy Paladins that are going with the standard spirit/haste itemization should be gearing for at least 1861 haste for the 14th Holy Radiance tick. You are losing a lot of output by not being geared to at least that haste point, and as long as you are in a 360+ gear level, it is easily attainable. In some cases that means using lower ilevel gear. For example, I am sitting on 391 boots in my bags and using 378 spirit/haste craftables until I can get either the Alysrazor chest or 391 Tier gloves, because using the 391 boots puts me about 100 below the 1861 threshold and is not worth the ilevel upgrade. I really don't like or buy the "his healing is low because he was being sniped and overhealing and there was nothing to heal and noone died argument". That could be applied to every other healer in the raid too; they were able to outperform him. That type of argument is what a lot of bad healers use to justify performance to themselves. If he continues his playstyle into hard modes and progression, it will cause wipes.

First point, I'll give you. In my case, it just isn't worth gearing that much haste for 10's given the infrequent use of HR. For 25's it might be worth shooting for, but in my case, I prefer a spirit > mastery=haste build so I get a more static heal increase rather than a bigger boost that only gets used 2 or 3 times in a fight.

As to the second argument about a healer being bad if he doesn't cast constantly or using it as an argument to justify performance, I disagree completely. You can say I'm a baddie because of this, I don't really care. If I can keep my raid alive without chain-casting unnecessarily, we're going to keep getting kills, and I'm not going to have any reason to change this. If he's chain casting and able to keep his mana up through the entirety of the fight, which is likely possible, it still doesn't benefit the raid in any way. The only difference will be his HPS will go up, and other healers' HPS will go down. Ultimately, there's only so much healing to be done and whoever get's there first wins on the HPS meter.

Being a good healer isn't about maximizing throughput. That's a dps meter-humping mentality and nothing more. The ideal healer is the one who can heal the minimum amount possible while keeping everyone alive. Obviously, this doesn't mean holding a raid at 10% health so you never overheal, but straining to keep everyone at full health and have a pally mastery shield on them all the time is pointless. Good healing is about finding the medium between those two extremes. That's also not to say a good healer shouldn't be CAPABLE of bit HPS numbers, but trying to artificially inflate them doesn't speak of healing skill, it just says you spam harder than the next guy.

[Tiberria]

As a holy paladin, not constantly casting is a sign of bad play. Even if you are fully overhealing and there is nothing to heal, you should still be casting Holy Light on a tank, and using Holy Shock and judgement on CD. The reason for this is, a HL/HS rotation costs so little mana that it is either mana neutral or you actually regen mana while doing so. Every HL cast has a chance to generate a Daybreak proc, every HS has a chance to generate an Infusion of Light proc, in addition to the HP gain. In addition, you are putting small mastery shields on your target in the process as well. These procs and mastery shields allow you to have more healing on demand a few seconds later when healing needs to be done. Holy paladins should have as close to 100% active time as humanly possible.

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 04:57 PM ----------

To clarify, heavy overhealing with FoL/DL is a bad thing; overhealing with efficient spells and overhealing generated from passive/free sources (beacon, Protector of the Innocent, Enlightened Judgements) is acceptable, unavoidable and nothing to avoid or be concerned with.

[Bassnectar]

I'm pretty sure your shaman should be MUCH higher also, but I feel like that the holy paladin isn't cast as much as he should. Seems like he is just using holy radiance and using holy shock when its off CD then using LoD and thats it. Should be also casting holy lights and shit when they are on CD

[Nillo]

You are 7 healing a fight that looking at your healer's hps could probably be 5 healed as well - what numbers do you expect? -.-
It's always the same with people asking why their healers heal for so little and the first thing you spot is that they're using 50% more healers than necessary - with that amount of healers overhealing will be extremely high and the one to pick the short straw is going to end up horribly beaten down in Healing Meters.

on that fight a paladin wont be top healing, but he should 100% be doing way more healing then he is. in the scorpion phase tell him to crusader strike EVERY cd to gain an extra holy power an holy shock every cd then use light of dawn 3 stacks this will stack very fast

What's the point in using Crusader Strikes again? Wasting a gcd and mana just to get 1 Holy Power?

---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 10:29 PM ----------

1) Paladins gain mana back from judging so for someone who is so conscious about his mana, he barely made use of judge during that fight. He did a total of 24 judges over the course of 6 mins 45 seconds. Judge has a 8 second cooldown but lets say you get 1 off every 10 seconds, that's a total 40 judges that should be going off. Judgement gives us 15% of our base mana back so (23422x0.15) = 3513.3 mana back per judge. He missed a total of 16 Judge's which more or less resulted in 56,212 mana he did not make use of.

2) He didn't use any potions. I always pre pot with a volcanic potion when healing and use a concentration potion during fight.

-The logs say he never used avenging wrath, divine favor or divine plea???? Two HUGE paladin buffs that assist with healing. Using both topped with holy radiance with allow some big healing. Every 5% of haste we get, holy radiance gets another tick of healing. With divine favor up (20% haste buff) we'd get an extra 4 ticks which is beyond good for this fight.

3) A few things that need tweaking but I think if he has the drive to do some research on his own you should keep him. There are a lot of haste pieces he's missing, along with 4 piece.

1) I just can't see judging more than every 15 seconds as being reasonable - why would you advice someone to forcibly try to do it once every 10? His number of Judgements (and mana gained) are perfectly normal.
2) What's the point in using Volcanic potion when most of the time damage taken within the first few seconds will be nonexistant? And i certainly wouldn't pre-pot on a fight I'm overgearing a lot (which is what they do with 7 healers doing a measly 10-15k hps)
3) 4 Piece isn't that great , but I wonder why he has none of the VP tier items equipped.

[Tiberria]

Our 4 piece isn't great, but our 2 piece is extremely strong. It's really inexcusable for someone not to have 2 piece T12 at this point in the content patch.

Judging every 15 seconds is inadequate, and it will reduce your overall output. Unless you're in a situation where you absolutely can not afford the GCDs (and 7 healing FL 25 normal modes certainly isn't likely that situation), you are far better off judging as close to on CD as possible and then using the extra mana gained to convert more casts that you would normally be using HLs on to DL (or even FoL in certain situations). If I can average judging every 10.8 seconds on Heroic Rag, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to be able to do this in a FL normal mode.

[Nillo]

Judging every 15 seconds is inadequate, and it will reduce your overall output. Unless you're in a situation where you absolutely can not afford the GCDs (and 7 healing FL 25 normal modes certainly isn't likely that situation), you are far better off judging as close to on CD as possible and then using the extra mana gained to convert more casts that you would normally be using HLs on to DL (or even FoL in certain situations). If I can average judging every 10.8 seconds on Heroic Rag, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to be able to do this in a FL normal mode.

Just looking through some high ranking holy paladin logs I couldn't find anyone who was judging more than once every 15 sec (50 judgements on a 780 sec ragnaros heroic fight) .
I really can't see how you'd have the time to waste on casting judgements on cooldown when there are usually times where you just can't afford to. Yes judging is nice if you have a free gcd because ragnaros is just casting a spell and it's also great for prolonged downtimes, but I just can't see how using it on cooldown when you have to heal would be good. You aren't using DP on cd either to maximize mana gained are you?

[Tiberria]

Just looking through some high ranking holy paladin logs I couldn't find anyone who was judging more than once every 15 sec (50 judgements on a 780 sec ragnaros heroic fight) .
I really can't see how you'd have the time to waste on casting judgements on cooldown when there are usually times where you just can't afford to. Yes judging is nice if you have a free gcd because ragnaros is just casting a spell and it's also great for prolonged downtimes, but I just can't see how using it on cooldown when you have to heal would be good. You aren't using DP on cd either to maximize mana gained are you?

No, DP is used during transition phases after the Sons are dead, or during World in Flames (because the boss is not meleeing and noone is taking unavoidable damage). At least after P1 is over (when I generally don't use DP at all during), it's pretty easy to line these events up to using it pretty close to on CD.

[Sadinar]

2) What's the point in using Volcanic potion when most of the time damage taken within the first few seconds will be nonexistant? And i certainly wouldn't pre-pot on a fight I'm overgearing a lot (which is what they do with 7 healers doing a measly 10-15k hps)

Actually, using a volcanic pre-pot is a decent idea for domo, if you start off during slashes. If you time your volcanic right before the pull, with the little damage and judging thrice before the first slash, you can boost your mana up by about 15k. If timed right, you can cast HR right before your volcanic wears off, thus getting a "free" HR using the excess mana gained from the volcanic, as the volcanic should wear off within 2 seconds(before or after) the first slash. With HR costing ~9k mana, pre-potting a volcanic nets you a free mana pot, basically.

That said, you're absolutely right about pre-potting when having excessive healers or excessive gear for a fight, but it can still provide extra mana.

[Bostonian]

If the holy pally has good raid awareness, that often times is better than healing output. His healing is a little low, due to haste (I agree with everyone who said that). Also I agree that some fights Pallys just wont be on the top. Maybe when he gets more raid experience he will be even better. I've read many posts that suggest Druids/Pallys are on top of meters and Priests/Shamans are on bottom. Has that changed? BTW, I like bringing 6 healers to a 25 man. 7 is too many.

[Tiberria]

His output is still too low. An aggregate of parse numbers puts paladins at either the 2nd or 3rd best healing spec in terms of out put (behind Druids and sometimes Disc Priests). Paladins are generally at the bottom on Beth'ilac and Ryolith, but should be hanging out just below druids on almost every other fight. Raid awareness is important, but I would say his lack of Aura Mastery, Hand of Sacrifice, and Divine Protection usage makes me question his situational awareness.

As far as pre-potting, honestly, the only fight this expansion that I've found it worthwhile to pre-pot Volcanic pots on is pre-nerf Heroic Baleroc. That fight had intense up front healing requirements, especially if you were starting on the tank with no stacks. In almost every other case, the first 30 seconds of the fight has relatively light healing requirements, making pre-potting a waste of gold and largely just resulting in increased overhealing.