Someone Explain the Ret paladin 4.3 changes to me, and why it will "fix" Ret.

[Requital]

however, we scale with AP very good. 5% on 2 handed weapon specialization. Have you even been on the ptr? the buff is huge

The fact that you even ask that after I was the first one that posted numbers makes me wonder why you even posted that. The buff is across the board what part of that don't you get? Every melee class is being buffed because of it IT DOES NOT FIX RET

[Ilivath]

I never said anything was fixed. I was just letting you know the SimCraft devs updated the gear profile. So any point about gear is moot.

[Kissthebaby]

What they should do is add a talent in the ret tree to where holy wrath has like a 6 second cd and cost less mana. They should also just buff holy wraths damage in general. This gives ret a better filler with a better cd. Also would be cool if they switch holy wrath with divine storm so holy wrath is the main aoe and divine storm was the filler. That will never happen though

[zcks]

What they should do is add a talent in the ret tree to where holy wrath has like a 6 second cd and cost less mana. They should also just buff holy wraths damage in general. This gives ret a better filler with a better cd. Also would be cool if they switch holy wrath with divine storm so holy wrath is the main aoe and divine storm was the filler. That will never happen though

Or they could just make Holy shock baseline & effected by ret mastery, it was for a little while during beta but they took it out because when combined with no CD WOG & eternal glory it made our healing to powerful as ret.
For where the spec is now however it would do everything the 2piece bonus does except better.

It would also help in pvp where kiting & resource generation is major problem.

But then again blizzard can be said to do allot of things, sadly things like listening to the ret playerbase is hardly ever among them & neither is doing the logical fixes for the problems the spec has.

[Talen]

What they should do is add a talent in the ret tree to where holy wrath has like a 6 second cd and cost less mana. They should also just buff holy wraths damage in general. This gives ret a better filler with a better cd. Also would be cool if they switch holy wrath with divine storm so holy wrath is the main aoe and divine storm was the filler. That will never happen though

Holy Wrath is unsuitable for a filler move because of its stun component. That CAN be worked around, but then you are faced with it Meteor damage mechanism which has proven so bad for a DPS move.

In short, to make HW viable you either need to switch it from a DPS filler move with a stun component to an AoE stun with a damage component, or rework it entirely.

Personally, if you were to look at a DPS filler move on a temporary basis I'd look towards a baseline 3s CD on CS or possibly an always on HoW. On a more permanent basis....if they fix the rotation and HP properly, one probably wouldn't be needed though that, in turn would depend on how they fixed things.

EJL

[Deviltry]

Over the week I leveled a ret paladin to 60.

And what the hell - sometimes you just suck standing and auto attacking with CS being dodged, other times you're SLAYING with THREE Templar's Verdicts and then two awesome Exorcism procs. You either suck or do OMGWTFNERF burst.

I mean what the fudge, this isn't how any class should be played.

[Vuagnon]

Over the week I leveled a ret paladin to 60.

And what the hell - sometimes you just suck standing and auto attacking with CS being dodged, other times you're SLAYING with THREE Templar's Verdicts and then two awesome Exorcism procs. You either suck or do OMGWTFNERF burst.

I mean what the fudge, this isn't how any class should be played.

Simply because Divine Purpose was redesigned yet again in the wrong way. The previous DP messed with Zealotry because of granting 1 hp at random and punishing the player to do less damage than desired. Then they slapped the old loser mastery as the new DP and nothing improved. RNG's role actually became more important and made things worse. Not only the RNG plague but several other things need to be looked at and revised in order to make Retribution a playable spec.

[terrahero]

Simply because Divine Purpose was redesigned yet again in the wrong way. The previous DP messed with Zealotry because of granting 1 hp at random and punishing the player to do less damage than desired. Then they slapped the old loser mastery as the new DP and nothing improved. RNG's role actually became more important and made things worse. Not only the RNG plague but several other things need to be looked at and revised in order to make Retribution a playable spec.

The "new" system post-Mastery change is less random. Wich is just really crazy if you think about how stupid it mustve been in 4.0.

When they changed our Mastery Divine Purpose was changed to the old mastery, losing the chance to proc 1 free Holy Power. So we had Art of War, Hand of Light and Divine Purpose. Now we have only Divine Purpose and Art of War. And the "new" Divine Purpose ended up giving roughly as many extra holy power as the old one.

But this one messes alot less with Zealotry. The old one made Zealotry very weak. Zealotry is essentially a bunch of extra holy power being generated, but in return you lost out on the extra procs, you still do with the current design. Stacked with Zealotry also being much shorther, i believe it was initially 10sec, but this was changed during beta. Because the average extra holy power from Zealotry back then was just about 1 finisher. And a 2min cooldown to get an extra finisher spread out over 10sec was just so pisspoor most people wouldnt even spec it.

So, once again as sad as it may be, the current design is already a step up from what it was at release. But then again, they spend more time on paladin development AFTER Cata was launched then they did during the alpha and beta.

[Fredzilla]

So much anger in this thread. The mechanical problems aren't going to be fixed in 4.3. We will do more damage (compared to ourselves now, not to other class necessarily) to be sure.

Based on the massive changes to the class in 4.0/Cata, I'm hoping for a turn for the better come next xpac, considering this is (or should be) the last major content patch of cata.

[Austilias]

People talk as though every Ret pala will have 2-T13 pieces and thus Judgement is pretty much part of the Holy Power-building. This excludes what I would imagine to be many, many players, even with the Raid Finder I doubt people will be getting far into the Deathwing Raid. The 2 piece effect is not to be praised; where could be worse to "fix" a class than on their gear that they mightn't even get?

[Fredzilla]

People talk as though every Ret pala will have 2-T13 pieces and thus Judgement is pretty much part of the Holy Power-building. This excludes what I would imagine to be many, many players, even with the Raid Finder I doubt people will be getting far into the Deathwing Raid. The 2 piece effect is not to be praised; where could be worse to "fix" a class than on their gear that they mightn't even get?

When we're talking about pve, im assuming that 99% of us are raiders who can manage to gather a few pieces of tier (especially with the rain finder now). Granted, I'm not positive on what they're doing as far as distribution of tier gear in this patch, but that doesn't change the fact that, as far as arguments/discussions such as these, pve = raid, which means you'll most likely have tier gear.

[terrahero]

When we're talking about pve, im assuming that 99% of us are raiders who can manage to gather a few pieces of tier (especially with the rain finder now). Granted, I'm not positive on what they're doing as far as distribution of tier gear in this patch, but that doesn't change the fact that, as far as arguments/discussions such as these, pve = raid, which means you'll most likely have tier gear.

Unless you play pvp. Or you are more of a casual player and dont raid. Those 2 together make up a very large group that will not benefit from T13. And you just cant go around fixing stuff like this with set bonusses. Altough 2p T13 is hardly a fix, its 2 extra finishers every minute. Whoopdiedoo? Sure its nice and will put a little more backbone into Holy Power generaton. But its not going to really fix anything.

Rather, its like a bandad fix. But instead of applying it directly to the spec, that sure as hell can use it, they did it via a set bonus. Where they will still have a significant part of the Ret playerbase not benefitting from it. And the entire Ret player base not benefit from it during the more "progressive" raid period.

[Fredzilla]

Unless you play pvp. Or you are more of a casual player and dont raid. Those 2 together make up a very large group that will not benefit from T13. And you just cant go around fixing stuff like this with set bonusses. Altough 2p T13 is hardly a fix, its 2 extra finishers every minute. Whoopdiedoo? Sure its nice and will put a little more backbone into Holy Power generaton. But its not going to really fix anything.

Rather, its like a bandad fix. But instead of applying it directly to the spec, that sure as hell can use it, they did it via a set bonus. Where they will still have a significant part of the Ret playerbase not benefitting from it. And the entire Ret player base not benefit from it during the more "progressive" raid period.

I never implied pve raiding was all that was being discussed, but when we speak of pve, what other aspect is substantially affected other than raiding? Changes such as these don't make any real differences in dungeons or dailies or anything else non-pvp-non-raiders may do. The extra 5% from 2H weapon spec won't make a difference overall in the molten front.

The fact that changes, like that being applied via t13 2 pc, only really apply to raiding isnt different than before. The 2pc t10 bonus pretty much made ret dps back in icc. Same problem for pvp. Sure some other casual players could get that via a bunch of heroics, but the bonus meant relatively little to them overall (since they didn't raid), just like the lack of this one would make just as little of a difference.

And of course theyre just doing bandaid fixes. Its the last major content patch in the middle of an xpac. They didnt make any of the changes for cata to us until right before it came out, why would they do it differently now? Why would they change the core mechanics of a class/spec in the middle of an xpac? Im not saying I like the lack of change, but that logic, at least, is sound.

[terrahero]

The 2p T10 was also a bad design and a cheap way to bandaid fix it. But it was relatively easy to get 2p T10 as you could get it from running dungeons. Wich is alot easier, and alot more accesisable. It still meant pvpers didnt have acces to it, but considering it wasnt as much of an impact to them as the 2p T13 is. You also spend alot of time getting kited in pvp, so the overall procs from 2p T10 wouldve been low.

But the 2p T13 in pvp is much more useable due to the ranged aspect, and could let you build holy power for when you finally do get into melee range instead of relying on short-lasting procs. Very diffirent mechanic, and much greater impact.

Also, i never implied we'd get anything but bandaid fixes. But then these should be applied to the SPEC, and not through a set bonus that not everyone can get. And no one will benefit during the point where it would matter the most.

[Fredzilla]

The 2p T10 was also a bad design and a cheap way to bandaid fix it. But it was relatively easy to get 2p T10 as you could get it from running dungeons. Wich is alot easier, and alot more accesisable. It still meant pvpers didnt have acces to it, but considering it wasnt as much of an impact to them as the 2p T13 is. You also spend alot of time getting kited in pvp, so the overall procs from 2p T10 wouldve been low.

But the 2p T13 in pvp is much more useable due to the ranged aspect, and could let you build holy power for when you finally do get into melee range instead of relying on short-lasting procs. Very diffirent mechanic, and much greater impact.

Also, i never implied we'd get anything but bandaid fixes. But then these should be applied to the SPEC, and not through a set bonus that not everyone can get. And no one will benefit during the point where it would matter the most.

They aren't going to change the spec's mechanic in such a way in the middle of the xpac unless it's absolutely necessary, which, while the 2pc bonus is nice, it isn't absolutely necessary for anything. And, while I don't arena, I can't imagine that 1 TV you build up (assuming you don't use the hp to heal yourself) will, in general, be the difference between winning or losing.

I am in no way defending Blizzard's actions. I've gone through all their crap with pallies and ret since vanilla. That doesn't change the fact that arguing about how they're doing something stupid (which we all know it's stupid) doesn't help or solve anything. We all know the spec needs help, but there won't be anything substantial until the next xpac. That's how it is.

[terrahero]

Consdering it means you get to actually use a TV when you do get in melee range instead of first spending ~10sec to stack up its id say a noticeable diffirence. And this means you dont have to fish for Divine Purpose procs to use WoG.

But i agree its kind of pointless to argue how they apply a bandaid. But then again, and this you should know if you've played as long as you say, argueing about anything is pointless. Blizzard doesnt even listen to the beta testers they invite, what chance do we have? Let alone here on a fansite.

[Fredzilla]

Pointless, indeed. Blizzard's going to do whatever the hell they want to, as they have for the last however many years.

Though after the rng-crapfest cata has been, I'm almost looking forward to our most-likely massive overhaul for the next xpac.

[terrahero]

Pointless, indeed. Blizzard's going to do whatever the hell they want to, as they have for the last however many years.

Though after the rng-crapfest cata has been, I'm almost looking forward to our most-likely massive overhaul for the next xpac.

I dont know what to think anymore. Afterall, blizzard simply took a step back from WotLK when they came up with this crap. But i do think we'll get another overhaul, afterall thats what they do every expansion. And then they always underestimate the effort it takes, put in halfassed effort and rushes the design into release.

And in about 1 year we, or people here, will be having this exact same discussion and talking about all the things that suck. And how Blizzard will likely just throw some bandaid fixes, and how the next expansion might fix Ret. Provided they do X, Y and ofcourse Z. Because thats what we've been doing for the past 8 years. And thats what Blizzard has been doing for the past 8 years. Come up with, barely, passable ideas and then not ever putting in the effort or dedication to actually see these in practise.

Blizzard used to stand for quality, and products were done when they were done. With Cataclysm it just became so painfully obvious that is no longer the case for WoW. Stuff has a deadline and no one fucks with the deadline, even if that means giving a class a make over in 2,5 weeks that actually should take over a year.

And the worst, absolute worst part is. That all these problems that keep comming up over the years of WoW have all been predicted and reported by the community and the beta testers. And every, single, time this feedback is ignored. And ultimately comes down to an "Well, we messed up... but we just didnt expect this". Everyone else did. And this is reflected back into a poor job done developing by Blizzard as the game progresses.

I remember the brilliant moment in WotLK where they trimmed the Ret tree down alot because it was so incredibly bloated. And in the process cut alot of talents down in effectiveness aswell 30% crit -> 20% crit etcetc, stuff like that. And then they were honestly surprised that Rets dps WENT DOWN. Well durrrr, you just nerfed all the dps talents. What did you expect? Those extra 10 talentpoints we could now put into -6% dmg taken and 30% dispell protection were gona compensate?

Or how they think that nerfing HoW, something we barely use during cooldowns. And then buffing the abilities we DO use during cooldowns, aswell as slapping a 12% dmg buff during cooldowns through a setbonus is a great way to reduce our dependancy on these cooldowns.

Honest to god, its not just about design anymore but just, simply, common sense. And they seem to lack every bit of it the moment they start working on Paladins. And they seem intent on proving this, time and time again.

[Fredzilla]

Well, as it is, I do believe that our dps will be less-cd-reliant. The HoW change doesn't affect pve too much, and 2pc, which i imagine will take a lot less time to get than 4pc still, will help sustain the dps between cds. Sure 4pc will make us do more damage during zeal, but you haqve to get it first, and it doesnt change the fact that well be doing more damage outside of it (compared to the difference it is now).

[CecilHarvey]

due to Sanc Wrath nerf there is no more point using AW and Zealotry as 2 different cd's. It is now (with 4t13) even more cooldown dependent, you basically HAVE t stack them.

Yeah, I was thinking this too -- No reason to really use Wings for HoW crits and such separately.