PvE Ret Paladins in 4.3

[Szemere]

Ret needs a snare / slow and then we should be almost where we need to be.

Odd, paladins said the same before they had an interupt. Paladins are good enough in PvP as they are as far as I know.

[Deleted]

Im strongly wondering if you even READ anything i typed, or for that matter what Minneapolis wrote. He suggest we will see more divine purpose procs with 2p T13, in the strictest most absolute sense you could say this. Because Judgement adds Holy Power generation to the point of getting 2 extra TVs every minute wich might proc Divine Purpose.

But this addition of so small we will not practically experience any increase at all, because now you'll run into more clashing AoW procs. And since both Exorcism and Judgement have equal chance to proc Divine Purpose it makes no diffirence at all wich has priority if you only look at the amount of Divine Purpose procs you get.

If you are merely telling me that Judgement will beat Exorcism in priority with 2p T13 i suggest you reread my post because thats whats i said aswell.

If you are suggesting Judgement beats Crusaderstrike because of the small chance to proc Divine Purpose i disagree with that. Judgement still deals a great deal less damage then Crusaderstrike does. And i doubt the slight chance to proc a free filler will compensate for that significant gap in sheer raw dps.

As I said, 2nd place in HP generation cycle will be to Judgement. No one was intending to say that Judgement will be above CS/TV under any circumstances, they were just telling the truth: Judgement will gain more importance in our rotation since it now generates HP, not because dmg nor because it can proc DP. Just because it generates HP it is in fact a key ability. While others where just on deffensive mode just crying "because it won't fix anything".

The finer detail with Judgement generating 1 HP is that you won't delay Inq/TV as some people do to get a DP proc before spending your 3HP in either Inq either TV, mainly when you want to refresh Inquisition, because you will waste that HP. Instead, you will mash TV/reapply Inq to then generate 2 HP in 3 seconds, and maybe in HcT13 you will find yourself with enough haste to have 3secCD CS.

[terrahero]

Missing with DS not shielding=tank dead. You still lose the damage, just not the mitigation. Afraid it's not the same as getting Holy Power for a miss. Must be frustrating, but all DPS classes suffer from missing a major ability - Ret would be OP if they still got HP from CS failing.

You are completely incorrect.

What happens to a Rogue when his combopoint builder, lets say Sinister Strike, misses? He gets FULL ENERGY REFUND. Essentially the cooldown gets reset.
The very same applies to Feral Druids.
And if a DK misses a Rune ability he gets the runes REFUNDED.

These are the three closest combat mechanics to Ret, being what Ret is bsed off. But even if we step a little further and go look at, lets say, Warriors. A Warrior generates rage from autoattacks. But if his autoattack gets dodges or parried he still generates rage. Just not on misses.
Or even a little further, Balance Druids. They get Lunar/Solar Eclipse. If a spell under eclipse misses it doesnt consume the boost from eclipse.

So you see, Ret is very much unique in the regard that a ramping ability that fails to land is completely gone, grants nothing and still goes on full cooldown.

[Milius]

Odd, paladins said the same before they had an interupt. Paladins are good enough in PvP as they are as far as I know.

actually we called for interupt + gap closer.

ret paladins are nowhere near good enough competively

[Malthanis]

You are completely incorrect.

What happens to a Rogue when his combopoint builder, lets say Sinister Strike, misses? He gets FULL ENERGY REFUND. Essentially the cooldown gets reset.
The very same applies to Feral Druids.
And if a DK misses a Rune ability he gets the runes REFUNDED.

You're looking at it wrong. The refund is for the cost of the ability (runes and energy, in the above cases). They still lose out on the result (combo points and runic power) if they fail to connect. Our 'refund' would be mana, which doesn't really matter at all to us. What the issue here is with the cooldown of the ability. The above examples have no CD, while CS has a CD. If anything, the CD of CS should be lowered on a miss, since that's the real 'cost' of the ability.

[terrahero]

You're looking at it wrong. The refund is for the cost of the ability (runes and energy, in the above cases). They still lose out on the result (combo points and runic power) if they fail to connect. Our 'refund' would be mana, which doesn't really matter at all to us. What the issue here is with the cooldown of the ability. The above examples have no CD, while CS has a CD. If anything, the CD of CS should be lowered on a miss, since that's the real 'cost' of the ability.

Thats a little short. Energy IS a cooldown, it inhibits the use of combopoint builders. Its merely a more flexible system.
Runes ARE a cooldown, it limits the amount of rune-powered abilities you can use.

This is why Holy Power is such an incomplete system and an energy equivelant is mandetory to make it work as then you can replace the forced cooldown with a more flexible inhibition of energy, aswell as open up a player choice in what to use those "cooldowns" on. But even in this messy system Blizzard could easily make it so that if CS misses/dodged/parry it gets its cooldown reset. Then it would be equal to all those other combobuilding abilities other classes use, even if it is just a bandaid fix.

[Pliers]

You're looking at it wrong. The refund is for the cost of the ability (runes and energy, in the above cases). They still lose out on the result (combo points and runic power) if they fail to connect. Our 'refund' would be mana, which doesn't really matter at all to us. What the issue here is with the cooldown of the ability. The above examples have no CD, while CS has a CD. If anything, the CD of CS should be lowered on a miss, since that's the real 'cost' of the ability.

A paladin tank that fails to land their Avenger's Shield while under a Grand Cruader proc still gets a holy power. While not having CS's CD trigger on a failed attack would be fine, it would be unprecedented to refresh a cooldown in that manner. Generating Holy Power on a missed attack has precedent and a comparable mechanic elsewhere.

One of the two fixes (doesn't really matter which) should definitely be done, since Inquisition is such a large part of our rotation, and losing a CS pushes everthing back, and creates extra empty GCDs. For example, currently a missed CS during Zealotry is also a missed TV. Since all our cooldowns are up at that point, it's about 6x worse than missing a CS outside of cooldowns, which is still a harsh pentalty.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what other classes have as their mechanic. It's overly penalizing us, and should be changed.

[zcks]

As far as changes to crusader strike go, they really need to make the cool down reset if it gets misses. To be honest that would only be fair since DK abilities that miss get runes/runic power refunded, Warriors get rage refunded & rogues/feral's get energy refunded.


There are tons of other problems with the existing spec & the lazy changes they are doing I could go into but I'm on break & don't have the time.

---------- Post added 2011-10-13 at 02:20 PM ----------

Ret needs a snare / slow and then we should be almost where we need to be.

This would be a lazy fix really (kind of like everything blizzard does for ret).

Ideally if they want to keep the philosophy that ret has no instant gap closers or spammable snare then they need to do 2 things.

1: Increase the specs ability to do damage at range (not to the amount ranged specs have & ret would still need to be in melee to do optimum damage, but it should be enough to lessen the effects of kiting & CC spam)
2: Improve & expand upon the specs ability to counter kiting tools when they are used on the paladin him/her self (not on others). (this could be done by making LAOTL a constant speed buff more akin to feral swiftness, & by making hand of freedom immune to dispels when used on self while possibly adding an additional speed increase for the paladin while active.

These would lessen the effects of kiting & CC spam so that ret can actually provide some offensiveness but do it in a way that separates the spec from others in that it still would not have snares/slows & instant gap closers.

[Deleted]

Soo with the changes we could basically put Judgement before CS in the priority? Or just after, as a way of building HP?
And about snare, we have a seal that slows our opponents down dont we? I think they could decrease the CD on HOJ by at least half to buff us.

[Reith]

From the DPS side of things, a missed DK ability may not put the runes on the normal CD, but I don't think they get the runic power from the ability. Other classes lose out on procs that are necessary to their rotations and DPS. CS isn't tied to DP, so we actually are rather on par with other classes losing out on an ability not landing properly (which should be rare, since we do prioritize hit/expertise as DPS).

DK loses 20% of the Runic Power (or the runes reset instantly) of the ability he tried to use. Can still try the ability again once his GCD is up (1 second). This goes for feral and rogues as well when they use their combo-point-generating attacks.

Take Zealotry for example. What happens when you get a Crusader Strike parried while Zealotry is up? You lose not one, but TWO attacks and Seal damage. Crusader Strike itself, Templar's Verdict, the seal damage you'd get from both and the Seals of Command. Not only that, but you miss out on a chance for a Divine Purpose proc. That is completely unbalanced vs most of the other melee.

EDIT: Obviously, the solution should be to lower the cooldown of Crusader Strike on an avoid. Heck, it should just reset, IMO.

[terrahero]

I prefer option nr1, truely. It would deal with kiting issues, while maintaining a unique gameplay. Rather then slapping on a carboncopy ability of sometihng else.

I think LAotL should be gone. And instead HoF should be the sprint when used on yourself and undispellable. Additionally Judgement should be the source of the Justice-debuff. So yes, a Ret just runs down his target. Closing the distance eventually for melee combat. But while not in melee combat unleashing potent damage from range and while on the move.

Toss in a movement punishment that stacks damage on a target if it moves, such as Shadow Prison and ret has a good toolkit to deal with being kited without breaking the standerd lolcharge, lolsnare and lolslow. Wich would just be a boring and lazy bandaid fix that only causes further balance issues. And doesnt do the game any good.

[Pliers]

Soo with the changes we could basically put Judgement before CS in the priority? Or just after, as a way of building HP?
And about snare, we have a seal that slows our opponents down dont we? I think they could decrease the CD on HOJ by at least half to buff us.

As it stands, it falls after CS, and currently appears to come after DP procs, but before AoW exorcisms and any other filler.

[zcks]

Soo with the changes we could basically put Judgement before CS in the priority? Or just after, as a way of building HP?
And about snare, we have a seal that slows our opponents down dont we? I think they could decrease the CD on HOJ by at least half to buff us.

Seal of justice only reduces targets to 100% movement speed & it only works if we can get into melee to begin with (which is very hard because freedom is easily dispelled & cleanse has a heavy mana cost & only removes 1 snare at a time)


Decreasing cool down of HOJ likely wouldn't do much either, it's easily dispelled like everything else.

As for putting judgment before CS, it's not likely. It gains no benefit from our mastery.

[rezoacken]

As it stands, it falls after CS, and currently appears to come after DP procs, but before AoW exorcisms and any other filler.

Yeah just 2min thinking hint me rotation will be

Inqa Inqr TV_3 CS TVDP Judgement Exo How Wrath Consec

Dont know if i forget something.

[Neldarie]

He does have a clue, and he's completely right. From a tanking perspective, the only reason we should get HP off of an evaded CS/HotR would be if Holy Shield was still a proc. Even then, it was only part of our mitigation. For a Blood DK, not getting the shield is an absolutely massive hit to their survivability (it'd be about the same as a Paladin losing the ability to block), and the developers have already stated that they don't think tanks should prioritize hit and expertise as much as DPS should (even though they still want it on the table).

From the DPS side of things, a missed DK ability may not put the runes on the normal CD, but I don't think they get the runic power from the ability. Other classes lose out on procs that are necessary to their rotations and DPS. CS isn't tied to DP, so we actually are rather on par with other classes losing out on an ability not landing properly (which should be rare, since we do prioritize hit/expertise as DPS).

I would 100% agree if this thread was about tanking, but since its called "Thread: PvE Ret Paladins in 4.3" I did not. Of course from game point of view as a whole tank missing that "cooldown" of staying alive is a much bigger deal than dps losing some numbers. I think people above only tried to compare to other DPS roles not TANK ones.

Anyways on topic the only proper "punishment" for CS parries should be GCD and not cooldown/holy power loss. Could easily limit it to : CS only via parries and only in Retribution spec.

[Pawpurr]

the number of uninformed whiners in this thread is absurd

the hammer of wrath nerf-> judgement/base dmg buff is great for pve, and pvp

PVP is not about bursting targets down in two seconds, anyone who thinks that is bad. Blizz wants slower, more strategic pvp. What this means is that Ret will be able to put actual pressure on a target OUTSIDE of DPS cooldowns. Yes, its true, you wont be able to pop wings and spam hammer to win anymore. Q, Q. As for a gap closer, its called long arm of the law, unless 100% of your hostile PVP targets are in the dead zone, you always have a sprint available, judge one target at distance to close the gap on a different target. learn to use mouseover macros and learn to understand the class.

its true that getting parried during DPS cds sucks. CS should just give HP if it misses/not have the CD reset. But, thats not really a balance problem, its just a quality of life problem, in most circumstances it doesnt come up.

hey, if you arent A) high level PVE raider or b) high level PVP, dont just talk out of your ass about doom and gloom. leave the discussions to people with experience and knowledge. and don't go attacking me just because i'm calling you out, read some of the ideas and questions in this thread, its obvious there are some uber casuals claiming the sky is falling.

[Butosai]

the number of uninformed whiners in this thread is absurd

the hammer of wrath nerf-> judgement/base dmg buff is great for pve, and pvp

PVP is not about bursting targets down in two seconds, anyone who thinks that is bad. Blizz wants slower, more strategic pvp. What this means is that Ret will be able to put actual pressure on a target OUTSIDE of DPS cooldowns. Yes, its true, you wont be able to pop wings and spam hammer to win anymore. Q, Q. As for a gap closer, its called long arm of the law, unless 100% of your hostile PVP targets are in the dead zone, you always have a sprint available, judge one target at distance to close the gap on a different target. learn to use mouseover macros and learn to understand the class.

its true that getting parried during DPS cds sucks. CS should just give HP if it misses/not have the CD reset. But, thats not really a balance problem, its just a quality of life problem, in most circumstances it doesnt come up.

hey, if you arent A) high level PVE raider or b) high level PVP, dont just talk out of your ass about doom and gloom. leave the discussions to people with experience and knowledge. and don't go attacking me just because i'm calling you out, read some of the ideas and questions in this thread, its obvious there are some uber casuals claiming the sky is falling.

you have said everything ive wanted to say for a while without having to type it out. Thank you

[terrahero]

the number of uninformed whiners in this thread is absurd

the hammer of wrath nerf-> judgement/base dmg buff is great for pve, and pvp

PVP is not about bursting targets down in two seconds, anyone who thinks that is bad. Blizz wants slower, more strategic pvp. What this means is that Ret will be able to put actual pressure on a target OUTSIDE of DPS cooldowns. Yes, its true, you wont be able to pop wings and spam hammer to win anymore. Q, Q. As for a gap closer, its called long arm of the law, unless 100% of your hostile PVP targets are in the dead zone, you always have a sprint available, judge one target at distance to close the gap on a different target. learn to use mouseover macros and learn to understand the class.

its true that getting parried during DPS cds sucks. CS should just give HP if it misses/not have the CD reset. But, thats not really a balance problem, its just a quality of life problem, in most circumstances it doesnt come up.

hey, if you arent A) high level PVE raider or b) high level PVP, dont just talk out of your ass about doom and gloom. leave the discussions to people with experience and knowledge. and don't go attacking me just because i'm calling you out, read some of the ideas and questions in this thread, its obvious there are some uber casuals claiming the sky is falling.

Please do tell. How is a base damage increase for substained dps good for Ret in pvp when the burst dmg is lowered?

You spend most of your time not in melee range. So substained damage greatly drops in value, instead Ret relies on the short burst damage for that brief moment they do get into melee range. the latter is nerfed and instead you must now rely more on consistent time on the target, wich for Ret is simply a fairytale dream.

Additionally the Judgement buff ONLY applies if you use SoT. Wich then automatically disqualifies SoJ as use and makes the dps sacrifice to use SoJ even greater. Altough Judgement still hits for balls.

Your whole post just sounds like the QQ from someone who doesnt even play a paladin.

Yes, its true, you wont be able to pop wings and spam hammer to win anymore.

If it was that easy you'd think we'd see alot more Rets high rated.