[Ele] 4.3 PTR T12 2P nerf.

[Eein]

All I can think of is that they will compensate on the next patch notes.
I dont think blizz is going to walk away without sorting this out. They nerfed this set bonus because they knew we were going to ignore t13 4pc because it was CLEARLY BETTER than t13.

With the current events, It's almost obvious that they are going to compensate in some fashion.

How they are going to compensate is another question...

Lower FE cooldown?
Flat DPS increase?

I'm sure they dont want to make the mistake again of 15% of the dps coming from a tier bonus so I imagine it will be some class changes.

[Relapses]

If the 2pc stacks with the FE glyph and we have about 120 casts in a 2 minute period, then it would take roughly 160 seconds off of the CD, making it roughly equivalent to where it is now, minus strings of bad luck. Granted, this is assuming the glyph works with the 2pc and it also would keep Shamans in T12 which would be exactly what they didn't want to begin with.

Edit: this is assuming that there isn't an ICD on the proc itself, which is unlikely. There's better napkin math above, this is more of "glass half full" guesstimation. I do hope they provide some kind of compensation, regardless.

[EleShamLAZERBEAMZ]

Fair warning; any further "Blizz hates Shamans, so of course they did this" kind of posts WILL BE INFRACTED, for trolling. Legitimate constructive criticism is fine, and this isn't intended to stifle reasonable discussion.


My take is that this is a good change; they needed to address the Tier 12 2-piece somehow, and the only ways to do it was either by giving us a permanent Elemental pet, or doing something like this and changing the set bonus. If we're low as a result, this is the PTR; this is precisely when we should be giving constructive feedback and performance data to show that we're behind.

Emphasis on "constructive".

Well seeing as tho all they have done is say that they are nurfing the only thing that made us any where near competitive into the floor, and no mention of any other change, I would say were back to the t11 of us being at nearly the bottom of the charts.

This is basically Blizz saying that the 2p bonus for t12 was over powered, or they the 4p t13 sucks so bad that they knew people were gonna keep the OP 2p bonus.

They devs don't know how to deal with shamans because with VERY little tweaking we can go from MONSTERS to mice.


[User was infracted for this post]

You even quoted the warning where I said to NOT do exactly this.

[Crushima]

Good and needed change.

[twinkleblur]

i knew this would happen...im tired of saying i told you so. no one listened to me on these forums no one listened on the actual forums and the epic QQ will happen in 3.....2...

[Glassmage]

I am kind of disappointed with this change, it is a perfect opportunity to play around with the 31 point talent from the elemental tree. Performance of elemental shaman that were played well rewarded with good dps. Not chart topping of hunters and whatnot but good enough to be satisfied with the class at this time.

I would love to see them instead play around with an elemental fire pet like frost mages with their water elemental, make earthquake baseline like healing rain has become.

[Jinto]

Oh well looks like I'll be getting Dragonwrath for resto.

Should be nice for TC.

[riexau]

Agreed - big nerf. Napkin math says, casting at gcd without counting mastery procs, 4 secs * 30% = 1.2 secs gained per gcd cast. 120 x 1.2 = 144 (aprx 2.5 mins). Duration (2 mins) + 2.5 mins < 5 min cd with gylph.

ah well.

edit: http://www.thedailyblink.com/2011/09...nd-the-server/
I have to admit, the shaman lever seems very accurate right about now!

[Relapses]

i knew this would happen...im tired of saying i told you so. no one listened to me on these forums no one listened on the actual forums and the epic QQ will happen in 3.....2...

There isn't any amazing prophetic skill required to predict they would change our 2 pc. Any realistic Shaman knew a change would occur eventually. The issue is that there isn't yet any indication of a buff elsewhere to compensate. This is the PTR so it will likely come eventually, I doubt they would leave it as is, the fallout with the playerbase would be catastrophic.

[Gistwiki]

If you have the Fire Elemental glyph, this becomes 2.7 minutes to give a roughly 60% uptime ( or 1800 dps).

How exactly are you getting ~60% uptime glyphed? I keep getting ~72% when I attempt to do the math for it. I have to be missing something, I'm just not sure what >.>

Glyph reduces to 300s cooldown. Assuming 108 seconds per minute are taken off the cooldown then the effective cooldown is 2+7/9 minutes. With that cooldown, the Elemental is active 2/(2+7/9) of the time 2/(2+7/9) = .72. What am I missing?

Oh well looks like I'll be getting Dragonwrath for resto.

Should be nice for TC.

Doesn't work with TC. Testing that was the second thing I did after getting mine

[Endus]

As a rough guestimate, I've done the following:

~1.5 seconds per chance to proc = 40 chances per minute. 30% of that is 12, times 4 is 48 seconds cut off per minute, or 108 seconds per minute total. This means that the cooldown would be roughly 5.5 minutes, or a 36% uptime. (36% * 3000 = 1090 dps)

If you have the Fire Elemental glyph, this becomes 2.7 minutes to give a roughly 80% uptime ( or 2400 dps).

Normal use on a 10 minute CD is 600.

Unfortunately, I still see this as being too overpowered to drop in favour of T13 4pc

The problem is you also need to include the length of the fight; the Fire Elemental glyph was always a great glyph, IF the fight took exactly 7 minutes. If it took less, you weren't getting the full benefit of the second Fire Elemental, and it provided no damage advantage from 7-10 minutes long, giving other glyphs a chance to catch up.

This is obviously a lot screwier to math out since we've got both the set bonus AND the glyph to consider, but we also need to consider the stat value of upgrading those two pieces of Tier 12 to Tier 13. Heroic T12 versus normal T13 might be a wash, statistically speaking, but the jump to heroic T13 will provide more DPS as well.

Plus, you're losing the Lava Burst glyph (I assume) to get the Fire Elemental glyph.

It very well may not be enough of a nerf, I'm just saying there's a lot of factors to include that you seemed to skip over for some quick napkin math.


For instance, let's consider a 6.5 minute fight, which is closer to how they tend to go. For the normal unglyphed Elemental, that's ~925 DPS added. Using your proc numbers, and assuming an ideal situation where you pop it immediately at the start and immediately when it's available, you've got 2 minutes at the start, and then a minute near the end before the boss dies. That's a 46% uptime, for ~1384 DPS.

So that's ~450 ahead, but that's before we consider gear. That could be closer to a wash in the end.

Running simulationcraft with Glyph of Lava Burst removed, versus retained, shows about a 580 DPS loss for not having it, in T12 (H) gear. If we glyph FE with the 2-piece, we're looking at 2 full uses, and one partial; from 5.4 minutes in till the end, so about 33 seconds, for 273/390 seconds uptime, 70% uptime, or ~2100 DPS. And that's compared to the ~925 plus 580, or 1505 DPS for normal. So 595 DPS gained.

It's still looking like it's stronger than it should be, but it's probably a closer call than your original numbers suggested

[Propane]

They'll keep adjusting it on the PTRs until they force us to drop the 2 set bonus. Either by nerfing the bonus even more, buffing our personal DPS, or a combination of the two.

It's only really time to panic when it looks like the PTR is close to being live and the issues are still present.

[Spongy]

Fair warning; any further "Blizz hates Shamans, so of course they did this" kind of posts WILL BE INFRACTED, for trolling. Legitimate constructive criticism is fine, and this isn't intended to stifle reasonable discussion.


My take is that this is a good change; they needed to address the Tier 12 2-piece somehow, and the only ways to do it was either by giving us a permanent Elemental pet, or doing something like this and changing the set bonus. If we're low as a result, this is the PTR; this is precisely when we should be giving constructive feedback and performance data to show that we're behind.

Emphasis on "constructive".

I am sorry but did you read anything above your post, nobody says blizzards hates shamans, they just that we had a good time and now its gone if this sticks (which is what this forum is about? Discussion.) Then we are getting nerfed because they didn't calculate the effectiveness of the current 2 part bonus. Nobody even myself didn't say F**k you shamans, I just don't understand how you can play a shaman and enjoy these changes, I said but why hurt elemental this much when we where happy. Which has gone from being very strong in single target dps to well rubbish if fire ele gets destroyed. What I am confused about is, that you play a shaman, and, your happy with the fact that instead of fixing underlying issues about fire elemental, ele shamans just get a nerfed because there tier bonus fixed this issue. How can any elemental shaman be happy with this. It basically says we are not giving you a permanent fire elemental (because it is to much effort, thats how I see it,) and we are also going to gimp your single target dps.

[Relapses]

Best case scenario, if we get a buff elsewhere unrelated to FE then using 2pc T12 and the glyph would be situational. (Clearly favoring heavy AE fights.)

[Endus]

I am sorry but did you read anything above your post, nobody says blizzards hates shamans, they just that we had a good time and now its gone if this sticks (which is what this forum is about? Discussion.) Then we are getting nerfed because they didn't calculate the effectiveness of the current 2 part bonus. Nobody even myself didn't say F**k you shamans, I just don't understand how you can play a shaman and enjoy these changes, I said but why hurt elemental this much when we where happy. Which has gone from being very strong in single target dps to well rubbish if fire ele gets destroyed. What I am confused about is, that you play a shaman, and, your happy with the fact that instead of fixing underlying issues about fire elemental, ele shamans just get a nerfed because there tier bonus fixed this issue. How can any elemental shaman be happy with this. It basically says we are not giving you a permanent fire elemental (because it is to much effort, thats how I see it,) and we are also going to gimp your single target dps.

I never said I enjoy these changes. I suggested it, WITH a commensurate buff to ensure no loss to DPS, both when they did the big feedback thread and again shortly after the PTR went live; if they didn't change the Tier 12 2-piece OR provide a permanent pet, we were going to end up using two pieces of Tier 12 for all of 4.3. I didn't like that, hence my comments.

We definitely need some buffs to make up the loss, between this and the Flametongue nerf (which is better, mechanically, in the long run, but is going to hurt is in the short term). I never said otherwise. I just said to keep the criticism constructive.

And no, the posts before the warning weren't that bad. If they had been, I'd have infracted them AND put out a warning. It's a preventative measure. Feel free to talk about how bad the change is for us. Saying Blizzard sucks/is incompetent/hates Shaman or other similar trolling will, as always, be infracted.

[twinkleblur]

they should make the glyph so it could last 2 minutes longer or something.

[Forsedar]

Any one else find it funny that ele gets this and then you see:
-Fireball damage has been increased by 17%. Mages need to do more damage, amirite? Ele always gets the shaft. That is why I quit back in 4.1. I was tired of playing a class that got benched for a lot of progression fights just because my class couldn't compete with other classes when it came to DPS.

[Whoopsa]

The fact is that this is what the set bonus should have been all along. It was intentionally a ridiculous single-target DPS increase because Elemental was behind. We should now be expecting some form of single-target buff, but it is getting a bit on my nerves that it takes 6-8 months to fix obvious issues when they arise.

[Gistwiki]

Any one else find it funny that ele gets this and then you see:
-Fireball damage has been increased by 17%. Mages need to do more damage, amirite? Ele always gets the shaft. That is why I quit back in 4.1. I was tired of playing a class that got benched for a lot of progression fights just because my class couldn't compete with other classes when it came to DPS.

Fire does need to do more damage (on any fight that isn't Alysrazor anyways >.>)

[Deleted]

I don't mind this, right now i hate that the fire elemental is that big a part of my dps, with clunky mechanics and AI. I'm amazed we still have a powerful dps at 10min cooldown, that has a high risk of getting killed/randomly despawn/not attacking anything. However I will hope for some kind of compensation.