1. #1

    SV qol and design discussion

    Dear fellow hunters,
    after almost one year playing this spec on a regular basis as an alt character, I have to say I do not understand some design decision that went into this spec and that could very easily be improved. Please don't flame about the spec, this topics does not have this purpose, but feel free to discuss any of my suggestion. Please also note that not all suggestion are about increasing SV effectivness or prune/change the spec the right way, but mostly in term of design logic.

    Thorwing Axes
    Why this talent does not replace Hatchet Toss ? This would not make it better but this is bugging me as it would make so much sense. Hatchet Toss is pointless when you take Throwing Axes (even more than without it). Upon selecting this talent it would also be logic that Serpent Sting would get updated to also get applied by the axes.

    Mortal Wounds
    Here I would recommend a strict buff to it, similar to how Hand of Guldan interraction with talents would work for Warlock. Make it so that every 12 seconds it generates a charge of Mongoose Bite. This would make the talent more competitive with the others while not being overpowered as it could still proc when you already have 3 charges (due to other procs).

    Sticky Bomb
    Give it a stun effect instead of a knock back, CD could be increased to 30-45s as needed. Currently SV is the only melee spec without any stun.

    Butchery
    Similar to Sidewinders for MM, instead of just replacing Carve make it also replace Raptor Strike, it would then interract with both Way of the Mok'nathal and the data-mined T21 bonus. Damage/CD could be altered here for balance purpose.

    Dragonsfire Grenade
    Taking this talent would replace Explosive Trap, the grenade would of course benefit from any other trap talents.

    Spitting Cobra
    Remove the active ability and cooldown to make it behave as All Will Serve (unholy DK), to have a permanent ranged guardian. Focus generation could of course be changed for tuning purpose.

    Mastery: Hunting Companion
    We all know the official description of SV right ? Traps, poison blablabla ? So in addition to the current mechanic tied to the mastery and mangoose charge, I would also suggest to add an interaction with our dots to boost all dots damage (basline dot as well as talent and artifact ones). To keep it interesting we could imagine that instead of a flat % increase, the mastery could still be trigered; for instance let's make it interactive with our pet to keep the naming flavor, whenever he uses is attack (bite, claw,...) it would inflinct part of all the dots damage instantly. It would then still keep the stat attractive even once we reach a certain amount that would overflow the mangoose procs.

    Fury Of The Eagle
    This one make me really sad every time I use it... The poorman Fist Of Fury that can completely screw your DPS while doing boss mechanics, that can bring you to top 1 when used on AOE or to trash when you realised your Mangoose window was 1.2s after reaching 6 stacks (meaning you probably get it off with 0 stack once the server register your input after the GCD...). This one needs the big rework in my opinion. First of all, where is the Eagle here ? It is fury of the Eagle, right ? Let's get it actually invoke a bird! Well guess what the devs are lucky here, because all assets are there, in game already. Remember when you drop below 40% health during your world quest ? So my big suggestion here is to change this spell, instead of being a channeled ability cast by the hunter, summon an Eagle for X seconds that would stun the target upon arrival and deal the damage to all nearby enemy. Keep the CD, keep the damage and keep the interaction with Mangoose Fury, but instead of having to use it during the window, just activate the spell once 6 stacks have been reached until Mangoose Bite is used again.

    I think that would cover all my suggestions to move forward with this spec, I believe most changes I suggested could be implemented really easily and have a good impact on the spec. It would also keep it in line with the standard design expectation for a melee class. But I don't believe it would dumb it down so that it becomes another easy whack-a-mole roller coster class.

    What do you think ?
    Last edited by shadow82; 2017-07-17 at 09:06 AM.

  2. #2
    Some of those suggestions would take away button bloat for sure, and there are a few I could stand behind. Cheers for the suggestions bud.

  3. #3
    I've agreed and liked all of your sugestions.
    But i really, really loved the Butchery and Spitting Cobra ideas.

    I also think that making FotE not a GCD would help us a lot, but the ability really need a rework. It is just a lame version of the Fists of Fury, at least we could have a spirit using the ability, in JoJo's style: ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA!

  4. #4
    Having Butchery replace Raptor Strike seems like a very bad idea. Butchery has a base CD of 12 secs. Mok'Nathal lasts 10 secs. Furthetmore, much of Butchery's advantage is that you can pool charges then unleash them in rapid succession when adds spawn. If you had to use it to maintain Mok'Nathal that would be impossible. To get an effect similar to the one I think you were aiming for you could just have Carve/Butchery also trigger Mok'Nathal.

  5. #5
    On the other hand, there is no reason why our maintenance buff Mok'Nathal doesn't last at least 15 seconds, considering our GCD is 1,5s and not 1,0.

  6. #6
    Thanks all for your feedback, glad to see the discussion is maybe worth something. As being a european player, I am not even sure how I could somehow get attention from the dev to forward such feedback to them. What do you think would be the best place to discuss this openly with the community and the devs (without toxicity or hatred against melee SV...) ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    Having Butchery replace Raptor Strike seems like a very bad idea. Butchery has a base CD of 12 secs. Mok'Nathal lasts 10 secs. Furthetmore, much of Butchery's advantage is that you can pool charges then unleash them in rapid succession when adds spawn. If you had to use it to maintain Mok'Nathal that would be impossible. To get an effect similar to the one I think you were aiming for you could just have Carve/Butchery also trigger Mok'Nathal.
    I do agree that the suggestion is not perfect in regards to Butchery and Mok'nathal, adding simply our aoe to Mok'nathal would be the easiest way for sure, nevertheless it does not resolve one goal Blizzard have been trying to achieve since MOP : prune spell never used. If we ever add our cleaves to Mok'nathal, there would even be less reason to have Raptor Strike on our action bars. It is really weird to end up in such spot on a brandly new designed spec when all other ones have followed this clear design logic of making sure all spells are worth a spot in our rotation (especially when the spell does just have a damage component to it).

  7. #7
    All of the changes make sense to some degree.

    I'm not the biggest fan of the butchery idea because I think butchery is already in a good place in that you're trading sustained AOE for burst AOE when you take the talent. The spitting cobra change also impedes into the territory of not just unholy DKs, but also BM hunters with their 2 pets. I also wish disengage was back to baseline. A proper defensive would be nice as well.

  8. #8
    Maining SV hunter since prepatch.

    Theres a lot that doesnt make a sense, for instance why is WoMK not related to Flanking Strike, and why Raptor Strike is there anyway?
    Second, why dont we have Lone Wolf mechanic where FS would become RS instead, lower cost, lower damage but more spammy?
    On other hand FS mechanics looks like it was made for tanking, so, we could, for instance have a lone wolf for DPS mechanics, while we have FS for tanking mechanic.
    Why does not our trap talents just modify our traps, for instance steel, caltrops and one new trap dont just change functionality of our Explosive trap with possibility to add another button via sticky/dragons grenade?

    Theres so many things that come to my mind regarding possible rework, im currently at work so im typing in breaks so sorry if something looks unconnected.
    Will update post or make a new one with ideas later on.

    But one thing is sure.. blizzard do need to take one more look at survival, the button bloat rivals that of MoP enhancement one.
    Overall, survival is played completely passive (but taken Serpent Sting) is actually reasonable.
    Following, simply by cutting down the needed stacks of WotMK and MB would make a spec less spammy.
    Quote Originally Posted by hydrium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    I play a Monk, so I'm already more mobile than my Demon Hunter.
    You might run a straight line faster than me but you're walking around that mountain, over the bridge at the ravine and down the trail of any hills. I'm going over them.

  9. #9
    tbh i think our mastery is the the biggest issue. with another huge issue with MOK. I know that some players are all "I like MOK" but really i think they are saying i like that MOK makes me pull better numbers. Having 2 tight timed windows (mongoose timer and MOK timers) can be super bad to deal with unless you really know timers on fights and how quick your group will get thru certain HP thresholds on bosses to phase new abilities.

    Which can be fun but you have to understand we are balanced around having a perfect knowledge about a fight to know when to open our mongoose windows and keep our MOK buff up. Which leads to bad design when another class(which we are balanced dps wise around) can just fire off their stuff as it comes of cd mostly.

    With the changes that just went out on the ptr for frost dks and frost mages my fingers are crossed that we are on the radar. Getting rid of MOK, raptor strike and making our mastery something better or better scaling would be the way to go imo.

  10. #10
    There are some pretty good arguments for making BM the melee spec which I would be all for but until then I really like these ideas.

    I imagine Fury of the Eagle similar to Rogues Death from Above only with eagle wings in the animation. The hunter jumps in the air and harpoons back down on it's target. Something that would allow for higher damage to main target and minor cleave to surrounding target.

    Really hope we're on the radar for these type of changes soon, if not hopefully we'll at least get changes to T21 set bonuses.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Brocerybag View Post
    There are some pretty good arguments for making BM the melee spec
    There are no good arguments for any Hunter spec being melee. It was a "likely terrible" idea before Legion, and now it is a "proven terrible" one.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    There are no good arguments for any Hunter spec being melee. It was a "likely terrible" idea before Legion, and now it is a "proven terrible" one.
    I think there are plenty of good arguments but that's not what this thread is about.
    In the end I'm glad we have a melee spec and look forward to seeing how it changes over time.
    Another thing I forgot to mention is Flanking Strike. Would be nice to just remove the threat mechanic and give back misdirect.

  13. #13
    Some good well thought out ideas here from OP.

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