1. #1

    Survival Design Issues

    Basic abilities

    Raptor Strike: This abilities very low damage and an extra button for the sake of having it. Its only purpose in the rotation is for managing other buffs that are optional talents. ( Way of the Mok'Nathal/Serpent Sting). Without those 2 talents, it just doesn't fit into the rotation really. It also takes up 2 valuable artifact spots which makes for shitty relics. Suggestion: Just remove it, and roll all its affiliating talents and traits into Flanking strike/Mongoose Bite. We really don't need it.

    Aspect of the Turtle : This abilities was designed being ranged. A CD that allowed you to get some breathing room before you open gap again or get to a safe distance away. But it simply does not work for a melee. In PvP, as you dont have disengage, a lot of times you are just delaying the inevitable. Suggestion: Make another abilities thats similar but feels suited for melee. Like Aspect of the Bear: Reduce damage by 80%, decaying by 10% every second.

    Aspect of the Cheetah: The CD is too fucking long.

    Exhilarion: This just simply isn't enough. Its a fine ability, and works relatively okish on MM and BM (arguably still a too long CD but still) but feels really crappy on survival. Again, it really doesn't seem they into consideration of the melee/ranged difference between specs and not everything should be universal. Suggestion: Remove for survival and bring back Spirit Bond? Less burst healing, smoother intake, more consistent.

    Stats

    Mastery: Can we please let pets auto attacks proc this so it has some cross synergy with haste and haste effects? Im not a fan of versatility and crit being my best stats just because mastery is so so bad.

    Talents

    Tier 15
    Way of the Mok'Nathal: Again, remove raptor strike and make it tied to flanking strike, keep the buff management aspect for those who like it. Those rare times that you might have flanking+lacerate on CD, immo trap on CD, DFG on CD, moongoose bite downtime, and have the spare focus, and you think a raptor strike might be good, throwing axes fills that void with more immediate damage while also being a ranged tool.

    Tier 30
    Snake Hunter: Just tie this to Aspect of the Eagle? You use these 2 moves together anyways

    Tier 45
    Farstrider: Sucks. RNG crit melee attacks have a chance to RNG reset your engage ability. Not that you really need to harpoon that often anyways outside of PvP, its just totally inconsistent and not practical. Suggestion: Make farstrider reduce the cooldown and increase the range. Posthaste will still generally be better but at least Farstrider would have a niche use in certain situations instead of 0.

    Tier 60
    Caltrops: Just fix the bugged crit chance (right now its bugged to only have a 5% crit chance. Doesnt scale with the player's.)

    Steel trap: This is a neat idea but sadly it just doesnt do enough damage for it to even have creative usage over the other 2 options. Has the potential to be really good in Mythic+ and maybe specific raid encounters and PVP Buff the damage.

    Tier 75
    Sticky Bomb: Just fix this to actually work. Seriously, it doesn't work, at all.

    Tier 100
    Spitting cobra: Pitiful damage for a lackluster benefit (focus). I dont know. Maybe make it have a chance to grant mongoose charges instead of focus and increase the damage a bit?

    Aspect of the Beast: make its damage not worrthless?

    PvP
    Scorpid Sting+Viper Sting: Make it apply off flanking strike, remove raptor strike.

  2. #2
    That snake hunter change would make 50% cd legendary the most op thing in the game so no. Also, you shouldn't use snake hunter and aspect of the eagle at the same time anyway. I agree that turtle and cheetah should be changed tho.

  3. #3
    I think Raptor strike WILL be reworked or removed, mostly because the hint of PvP Sting row being reworked into active abilities in the PTR, rather than activated by Raptor strike.

    As for healing, I would put a healing passive that procs whenever your traps does damage/debuff enemies. I.E., it heals you a percentage of health every few seconds when an enemy is affected by your Freezing Trap/ Steel Trap. Or everytime Caltrops/ Tar trap affects an enemy with the damage/slow effect.

    I would also suggest an ability that let us spend 3 Mongoose Bite charges in one GCD, to fasten the burst window.

    Finally, as I mentioned in other thread, I would re-implement Disengage, whose lack in this spec is, by far, the most injustificated of all changes (and probably made to favor Havoc and its Vengeful Retreat to feel unique)

  4. #4
    When you get Embrace of the Aspects from the artifact tree, AotE and Snake hunter share very close CDs (off by 6 seconds I believe?). Also, once you get the 50% CD legendary on all Aspects, AotE is further reduced to 48 seconds. With the above criteria, Cheetah and Turtle would have a 72 second CD which in hindsight isn't bad at all.

    While I do agree with some of your suggestions, I would recommend keeping artifact traits and legendarys in mind because Blizzard balances around those as well.

    (Please correct me on my math as I was in a rush)
    Last edited by OcciferGlass; 2016-09-26 at 11:34 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Challenge View Post
    Basic abilities

    Raptor Strike: This abilities very low damage and an extra button for the sake of having it. Its only purpose in the rotation is for managing other buffs that are optional talents. ( Way of the Mok'Nathal/Serpent Sting). Without those 2 talents, it just doesn't fit into the rotation really. It also takes up 2 valuable artifact spots which makes for shitty relics. Suggestion: Just remove it, and roll all its affiliating talents and traits into Flanking strike/Mongoose Bite. We really don't need it.
    I don't think it needs to be removed. I've seen plenty of people suggesting to reduce Focus cost to 15, making the rotation smoother, and replacing it with Throwing Axes when that talent is taken. I'd also suggest to make artifact trait Bird of Prey proc Survivalist, instead of healing a percentage of damage of Raptor Strike (so the damage being so low wouldn't be a problem).

    Aspect of the Turtle : This abilities was designed being ranged. A CD that allowed you to get some breathing room before you open gap again or get to a safe distance away. But it simply does not work for a melee. In PvP, as you dont have disengage, a lot of times you are just delaying the inevitable. Suggestion: Make another abilities thats similar but feels suited for melee. Like Aspect of the Bear: Reduce damage by 80%, decaying by 10% every second.
    Yes, AotE should be replaced with a better defensive CD for a melee. Personally, I'd make it a 2-min CD, 5s flat 30% damage reduction (no deflection, able to attack normally).

    Aspect of the Cheetah: The CD is too fucking long.
    Yes, it should be 90s baseline CD, with artifact trait lowering it to 72s.

    Exhilarion: This just simply isn't enough. Its a fine ability, and works relatively okish on MM and BM (arguably still a too long CD but still) but feels really crappy on survival. Again, it really doesn't seem they into consideration of the melee/ranged difference between specs and not everything should be universal. Suggestion: Remove for survival and bring back Spirit Bond? Less burst healing, smoother intake, more consistent.
    I'd be fine with it staying as it is, but getting Spirit Bond would make sense and be awesome, yes.

    Stats

    Mastery: Can we please let pets auto attacks proc this so it has some cross synergy with haste and haste effects? Im not a fan of versatility and crit being my best stats just because mastery is so so bad.
    Agreed.

    Tier 30
    Snake Hunter: Just tie this to Aspect of the Eagle? You use these 2 moves together anyways
    Personally, I'd:
    - Replace AMoC with a passive: Moongose Bites charges stack up to 4 now.
    - Mortal Wounds: In addition to its benefits, reduces Lacerate focus cost by 10 (gives a smoothier rotation).
    - Snake Hunter: Yes, make it a part of Aspect of the Eagle, as you suggested.

    Tier 45
    Farstrider: Sucks. RNG crit melee attacks have a chance to RNG reset your engage ability. Not that you really need to harpoon that often anyways outside of PvP, its just totally inconsistent and not practical. Suggestion: Make farstrider reduce the cooldown and increase the range. Posthaste will still generally be better but at least Farstrider would have a niche use in certain situations instead of 0.
    Just make it give Harpoon 2 charges.

    Tier 100
    Spitting cobra: Pitiful damage for a lackluster benefit (focus). I dont know. Maybe make it have a chance to grant mongoose charges instead of focus and increase the damage a bit?
    Maybe move AMoC here, and make AMoC give focus each time it damages the target?

    Aspect of the Beast: make its damage not worrthless?
    Yes, please.

  6. #6
    Mastery: Can we please let pets auto attacks proc this so it has some cross synergy with haste and haste effects? Im not a fan of versatility and crit being my best stats just because mastery is so so bad.


    Its so strange that they give us 15% pet haste in our artifact tree, but mastery only working on special attacks.

  7. #7
    I agree, Raptor Strike should just go away, or make a cd where we get a bunch of Raptors come in and pummel our target for 10 seconds or something.
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  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I never knew that Mastery didn't affect Auto-attacks... Probably because I never cared enough. Seems kind of retarded now that I think about it.

    Other classes have synergy with Mastery and either crit or haste(eg. Fury Warriors, Higher crit -> Higher enrage uptime -> more benefit from mastery).

  9. #9
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    This thread, i like the ideer.

  10. #10
    While questing the spec feels incredibly fragile.
    Fighting more than 2 monsters is suicidal, even with the flanking strike aggro effect.

    They should return misdirect and camouflage to all 3 hunter specs.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    While questing the spec feels incredibly fragile.
    Fighting more than 2 monsters is suicidal, even with the flanking strike aggro effect.

    They should return misdirect and camouflage to all 3 hunter specs.
    On Survivality, I've posted this in the official forums and in another thread:

    -------------------------------

    I've been playing as both MM and Survival, in both PvE and PvP, and I've found serious flaws in Survival's defensive skills. These may not be so apparent in PvE (thought they do have a terrible effect on our DPS if we need to mitigate damage), but they are very clear in PvP.

    Currently, Survival has 5 main defensive skills: Exhilaration, Survivalist, Aspect of the Turtle, Aspect of the Cheetah and the artifact trait Bird of Prey. Five different abilities to defend yourself may seem excessive, but they have poor synergy between themselves and with the spec's offensive traits.

    Exhilaration heals the Hunter for 30% max health, and heals the pet for 100% with a 2-minute CD. By itself it's not a bad ability, if the other skills worked better, Exhilaration would not need any buffs.

    I do have a problem with the Artifact trait Hunter's Bounty, thought. It reduces Exhilaration's CD every time you kill an enemy. This is mostly a leveling/soloing perk, with almost no effect in Raids or PvP (in which it's very rare for you to get the killing blow). I'd suggest changing it to "when a target afflicted with your Lacerate dies". This would allow the Hunter to benefit more from this perk.

    Survivalist is a passive that heals 15% of the Hunter's (and pet's) health over 10 seconds when you kill an enemy. It's a nice leveling/soloing perk, but has almost no effect in PvP or raiding, just like Hunter's Bounty. I'm listing it here because I'll reference it later, but it needs no changes.

    Aspect of the Turtle is the main problem in Survival's defenses. It has a 8 second duration, reduces damage taken by 30% and makes you evade all attacks, with a 3-minute CD. However, you can't attack while using it. The big problem is that this was designed as a defense for a ranged class. It's meant to allow the Hunter to run away or survive long enough to get help. Survival is a melee spec, with no Disengage or other tools to get away from an enemy. In essence, this Aspect of the Turtle just makes the fight longer by 8s, since you can't do much while under it. Yes, you can place traps, but that's it.

    Compare it to most melees' defenses, and you'll see that Survival can't outlast any melee spec. If the enemy uses defensive skills, your damage is mitigated while you take full damage from the target. If they use offensive skills, you can't mitigate damage without stop DPS'ing the target. Either way, you almost aways die faster than your opponent.

    It's even worse against enemies that can heal. Aspect of the Turtle protects THEM from you, allowing them to cast two or three healing spells before you can attack again (and you can't even interrupt the spells!).

    Aspect of the Turtle could be somewhat better, but still flawed, if we had the BM/MM's artifact trait that allows the Hunter to heal while under it. At least we would get out of the Aspect with more health.

    My suggestion is to change it to something like an "Aspect of the Gorilla" (or any other big predator, really): 30% damage reduction, no evasion, but allows us to attack. Make it 2-minute CD with a 5s duration so it can be used more often. Either that, or allow us to attack while under Aspect of the Turtle, even if we cause reduced damage (like Paladin's Divine Shield).

    Aspect of the Cheetah needs tweeks. Harpoon is nice for mobility, but sometimes we need to move somewhere there's no enemy. Also, remember that without the Throwing Axes talent we have no ranged ability whatsoever, so we need a way to reach enemies if we are slowed or immobilized just after a Harpoon (which happens often against ranged players). The 3-minute CD is just too long, even with the Artifact trait that allows it to be reduced to a 2.4 minute CD coupled with the PvP talent that reduces it by half (1.2 minute, or 72 seconds). Its standard CD should be halved to 90 seconds, so the trait reduces it to 72 seconds, and the PvP talent makes it a 36s CD.

    Finally, the Artifact trait Bird of Prey needs serious buffs. It allows our Raptor Strikes to heal us for up to 30% of the damage caused. Problem is, Raptor Strike does very little damage, and thus heal almost nothing (barely more than 1% of our health each time it's used). Even if the heal was meaningful (like 100% of the damage), it would come at cost of our DPS. Under its current iteration, Bird of Prey is useless: any enemy will still outdamage your heal while in turn you are sacrificing your DPS.

    My suggestion is to either buff really hard the trait (like upping it from 10/20/30% heal to 33/66/100% heal) or to change it to, instead of healing based on damage, make it a chance to activate Survivalist (like a 15/30/45% chance to proc it on each Raptor Strike).

    Finally, we have no way to defend ourselves while under CC. As such, once we are stunned, we pretty much will lose the battle. With the suggestions above, maybe no further change would be needed in this regard. However, if no other changes are made to Surv's defenses, then at least allow us to activate Aspect of the Turtle while under CC, please.

    My suggestions are not perfect, and taken together may even make the class overpowered, but it's undeniable that Survival needs some help in its defensive skills. Please, I ask Blizzard to take a look at these concerns.

  12. #12
    Survival is fun in terms of DPS rotation but the survivability and utility are just crap.

    Hunters were my main class for a decade BECAUSE of the awesome utility, niche abilities and situational spells.

    My hunter went from 95% full action bars to barely 20% full... class is gutted and survival is incredibly weak for questing, you are forced to go 2 by 2 mobs because you cant misdirect to your pet.
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  13. #13
    Bring pack spirit bond for survival and all is well

  14. #14
    I think the biggest problem of survival is the fact, that almost all spells dont have any interaction with each other, and that makes the whole rotation dull as f*ck.

    Example: a windwalker monk has Spinning Crane Kick (SCK). This is only to be used as an AOE spell and needs 3 chi to be cast, so you have to build this resource first with Tiger Palm. Plus, its damage gets amplified by +50% for every enemy that is marked (being hit) by one of your common melee spells (Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick and the like). So for maximum efficiency you build up chi, mark your enemies (depending on time to live) and execute SCK.

    One can argue whether this is fine to play or not, but it serves as an example how spells can be bound to each other.

    Survival has barely none of this, besides Mongoose Strike and Fury of the Eagle.

    And that makes the rotation, at least for me, super boring and uninteresting: press this, and then this, and if this is available you press this and so on... -.-

  15. #15
    I like survival, but i like some of these ideas a lot. Raptor strike, keep it for filler, reduce the focus cost OR buff up flanking strike. Given the nature of the class, it'd seem better to buff the flanking strike. However, what if raptor strike also did a stacking haste buff, maybe up to 30% more haste that also buffs the pet AND normal strikes proc mastery. I think that combination would greatly boost some of the downtime and give us a boost in damage, while making our mastery something more worthwhile.

    2 charge harpoon I like as well. Aspect of Turtle for Bear sounds like another really solid idea.
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