The power of Druid lvl 90 talents

[Deleted]

HoTW i really like and i think there are plenty of uses for it, unfortiently Disentanglement looks like a much stronger talent, boring but strong. DoC feels pointless.

I would like to use HoTW but my guess is that it will be Disentaglement all the way except for gimicky fights where i might get to use HoTW.

[Sabnock]

I think they are crap, as our talent tree.

I'm aware that is complex creating a talent tree for 4 specs + including pvp talents, even more difficult if you wants "neat" talents and you don't want incarnation like talents, in which you have different effects for different specs (personally I prefer something like that), but what you have to do is to have an idea in mind.
Right now the base idea is the hybridization, that is good if you want to change a bit the pvp's style of play, but it is not good at all in pve, because in order to be a useful, your group is supposed to fail. So, it's the style of play that is mandatory or useless in a pve scenario, but a good implementation could be a very good way to give you in pvp, what you really need, so you can use a well done hybridization to avoid to give a flat invulnerability effect, for example, because you are supposed to shift in bearform and resist to the damage you received (but not forever). Meanwhile in a pve scenario, you may want some talents that actually fix a condition you have (are they flat? it's ok if they fix a condition), for example even if it is not fair at all, you can create a talent that for balance it gives you an execution phase, and you want it because you are the only one who lack of it.
This is not the way in which they worked. They simply choose the hybridization and force you to take it, even if you don't want it (maybe to be more useful in the role you've chosen).
There are talent pretty good, but the whole talent tree put you in the condition to take something that if you have or haven't it is the same for how it is situational. And no, the good old "the talents are supposed to be something extra" is a lie, because it is valid only for us.
HotW: in pve if I want a talent like this I've to be more powerful then usual, because in order to change my role, I stop doing the one for which I'm in raid, so I've to be very effective. Right now you are a crippled version of another role, without the utility comes from the glyphs (and that's ok), without the spells and mechanisms proper of the new role (and that's not ok). In pvp the problems are more or less the same, if you are switching to heal the party, you have only reju e ht, if you are switching to hope you can resist damage in bear form, you still don't have cd and stuff.
DoC: you have to use ns+ht to be effective, and maybe a tank and a dps probably prefers a flat renewal (we have to see numbers on this), a healer won't take this talent, because to work you have to cast wrath and two healing spell are still better .
Disentaglements: it's an horrible placeholder, an ability we have to have as baseline because we don't have invulnerability effect (and it would be enough), but even if it is a placeholder it is our best talent for the four specs both in pvp and pve. And that's very sad.

Displacer Beast without a invulnerability component is a blink with 3 min cd.
Even a spammable Mass Entanglement couldn't win against Typhoon. It is too situational with a long the cd, too.
Tier 5 is totally worthless for a balance, for example.

And we get Symbiosis that creates chaos (and sucks balls for Balance).

[Teriz]

Um.. I can't get to the calc atm, but unless something major has changed for MoP, Omen of Clarity makes a spell cost zero mana, not be instant cast. So scratch that, you still are giving up valuable cast time.

Then cast Moonfire or Hurricane instead.

Again, it still does not address mastery bonuses, lack of actual spell/ability selection (since spells are spec specific), gearing/trinket issues, etc.

Of course not. That would make it overpowered. However, it gives you enough of a boost to be effective in that role on a temporary basis.

Really? What in the tree would make HoTW or DoC significantly better for pve? Disregarding the fact that the talents should be acceptable on their own, not fully depending on another tiers choice to be usable.

Celestial Alignment, Killer Instinct, and Nurturing Instinct makes HotW better. Predatory Swiftness, and Tier 2 makes DoC better.

Talents are part of your toolkit. It is always better if they work effectively with other abilities.

Agreed, and I think you keep showing how great they are in PVP, when I keep saying: sure, but they are pretty shitty for PVE - why cant we have talents that work well in both, like most other classes.

None of the talents are "shitty" for PvE. All of them have their uses. The point is to use them all in conjunction with each other for the best results.

---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:57 PM ----------

Displacer Beast without a invulnerability component is a blink with 3 min cd.

You turn into catform and enter prowl. That is a very powerful ability.

Tier 5 is totally worthless for a balance, for example.

Ursol's Vortex says hello. Even then, there's plenty of uses for Might Bash and Disorienting Roar as well.

And we get Symbiosis that creates chaos (and sucks balls for Balance).

Symbiosis is considered one of the best abilities at level 87. Obviously the community can see its insane utility potential.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ility-thus-far

[Sabnock]

You turn into catform and enter prowl. That is a very powerful ability.

Without the CoS component any dot nullifies the prowl at once, and even the resto can't dispel everything from himself.
So the final effect is more close to a blink, then a vanish.

Ursol's Vortex says hello. Even then, there's plenty of uses for Might Bash and Disorienting Roar as well.

And all three say bye bye!
Disorienting Roar is amazing for pvp, but once again is difficult to be a choice in pve.
Might Bash is a melee stun once for minute so as balance I don't think is necessarily a good idea.
Ursol's Vortex is situational at best, you can easily have encounter in which is useless, like the others and that's more or less my point on the tier.

It is an optional tier not because you can choose something, but because you can probably live at the same without choosing anything.

Symbiosis is considered one of the best abilities at level 87. Obviously the community can see its insane utility potential.

It is not enough.

Symbiosis is a cheap designed way to fix a condition, without fixing it properly. So we don't give to you a new cd to have more survavility/burst dps/invulnerability/utility, because we don't want to give you all and we don't want to choose which one is the best for you, we give you the illusion of the choice.
Sure, on the paper it is pretty cool (sadly not for Balance), and if it is something extra it would be good, but the main idea is to give us what we need and in this way it not a good way to work.

[Teriz]

Without the CoS component any dot nullifies the prowl at once, and even the resto can't dispel everything from himself.
So the final effect is more close to a blink, then a vanish.

In that particular situation sure. However, the talent itself does far more than just teleport you 20 yards.

And all three say bye bye!
Disorienting Roar is amazing for pvp, but once again is difficult to be a choice in pve.

Not really. As a caster I can think of many situations where I wanted multiple adds off of me.

Might Bash is a melee stun once for minute so as balance I don't think is necessarily a good idea.

It is if you need to get melee out of your face.

Ursol's Vortex is situational at best, you can easily have encounter in which is useless, like the others and that's more or less my point on the tier.

It is a very powerful AoE CC that can keep adds or enemies off of you for 15 seconds. Imagine getting the flag and then dropping UV on the crowd as you run away. Or Imagine a mob heading towards you as a healer. Pop UV to keep them at bay until the tank can regain control. Or imagine getting ganked somewhere and you need to escape. Drop UV and run away. Many uses, and a pretty strong talent in its own right. Especially as Balance.

It is not enough.

Symbiosis is a cheap designed way to fix a condition, without fixing it properly. So we don't give to you a new cd to have more survavility/burst dps/invulnerability/utility, because we don't want to give you all and we don't want to choose which one is the best for you, we give you the illusion of the choice.
Sure, on the paper it is pretty cool (sadly not for Balance), and if it is something extra it would be good, but the main idea is to give us what we need and in this way it not a good way to work.

So getting Mass Dispel, Mirror Image, or Smokebomb isn't cool for Balance Druids?

[Keiyra]

Then cast Moonfire or Hurricane instead.

Try reading the talent, only Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge or a melee ability (cat/bear) will trigger the healing bonus. As a resto, you have access to only Wrath (with long cast) or spend a GCD shifting + melee ability before getting the bonus... seriously if you want to argue the virtues of a talent, as least know how it works. For Balance/Feral activating the heal is easier, the damage bonus only activates from non instant casts of Healing Touch (so predatory swiftness wont help with that) - since Nourish and Regrowth are Resto only.

Of course not. That would make it overpowered. However, it gives you enough of a boost to be effective in that role on a temporary basis.

At best you are hoping this is the case since we haven't seen it in action, where as I am expecting that not to be the case. Time will tell. I guess I just have a different standard for being "effective in a role" even on a temporary basis. Not that it couldn't be balanced right, but its a damn fine line between OP and UP with this talent.

Ill will grant you the synergy of Celestial Alignment with HotW, but that's synergy for 1 out for 4 specs. Predatory swiftness is great for DoC, again 1 out of 4 specs. So Resto and Guardian are just sol when it comes to spec based synergy that tier.

Talents are part of your toolkit. It is always better if they work effectively with other abilities.

I suppose, but since talents are "flavor" and will seemingly be encouraged to swap often, having 1 talent dependent on another limits your choices further. In a way not commonly seen in other specs.

None of the talents are "shitty" for PvE. All of them have their uses. The point is to use them all in conjunction with each other for the best results.[COLOR="red"]

That is your opinion. Mine does not agree (thankfully they don't have to). The bigger point I was getting across is so much in the talent tree looks great for pvp. It needs a pass to make the talents equally as appealing for pve. On my other classes i literally have multiple tiers where i can say wow, each one of these talents is useful in both pve and pvp. I really don't get that feel from the druid talent tree, especially from Tier 90.

[huth]

Try reading the talent, only Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge or a melee ability (cat/bear) will trigger the healing bonus. As a resto, you have access to only Wrath (with long cast) or spend a GCD shifting + melee ability before getting the bonus... seriously if you want to argue the virtues of a talent, as least know how it works. For Balance/Feral activating the heal is easier, the damage bonus only activates from non instant casts of Healing Touch (so predatory swiftness wont help with that) - since Nourish and Regrowth are Resto only.

Shifting to bear or cat as Resto isn't as stupid in MoP as it would be now. For starters, you get your entire Int added on top of your agility when you shift to either, so you have a fair bit of AP, crit and dodge. Blizzard also decided to scrap Claw entirely... every Druid gets Mangle now. I actually did more damage in cat while wearing my caster gear in Balance than while wearing my tank gear in Guardian.

Celestial Alignment has no effect on heals - it boosts nature and arcane damage, it in no way makes DoC stronger for Balance. The others ill grant you offer some synergy with DoC if you are Feral, Guardian or Balance using it to heal. I'll up my rating of DoC from weak to mediocre.

Did you even read what you quoted? Yes, CA has no effect on DoC. It does, however, have an effect on HotW, as HotW makes Eclipse affect heals, and CA grants you all Eclipse effects of both Lunar and Solar. Which is what Teriz stated, correctly.

[Savagemoon]

Did you even read what you quoted? Yes, CA has no effect on DoC. It does, however, have an effect on HotW, as HotW makes Eclipse affect heals, and CA grants you all Eclipse effects of both Lunar and Solar. Which is what Teriz stated, correctly.

Isn't Celestial Alignment a DPS cooldown? Are you actually implying not using a DPS cooldown just so it can make HotW stronger in case it needs it?


@Clawtrocity
I replied to your post on the wow forums. Though I'm feeling a bit pessimistic about those talents.

From http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253968723#4

I think there's some psychological effect here.

For example, let's call the tier Incarnation is in as the "cooldown tier" (even though Soul of the Forest is there). And the lvl 90 talents are the "shapeshifting tier".

Maybe... just maybe... we all hate the shapeshifting tier so much because it is lvl 90. They are the last talents we get access to. They are the top talents! And, yet, they are tools to make us do roles we didn't choose to do - and I hate that. I specced balance to be a caster, I don't want cat tools, I certainly don't want stronger heals and I DO NOT WANT TO TANK!

If they were to swap the shapeshifting tier and the cooldown tier, would we continue hating the shapeshifting tier?

On a different point, Heart of the Wild and Dream of Cenarius certainly feel weak. But the numbers can be tweak. Even so... how effective am I going to be in those off roles if I lack the tools to do them propperly? Most of our 'hybrid' toolkit is being taken away.

[Sabnock]

Not really. As a caster I can think of many situations where I wanted multiple adds off of me.

Sure, a caster that is in the wrong spot.
In pve still too situational.

It is if you need to get melee out of your face.

It is not useless, it is unlikely usable to kick, for example.
In the other hand it is pretty useless in pve.

It is a very powerful AoE CC that can keep adds or enemies off of you for 15 seconds. Imagine getting the flag and then dropping UV on the crowd as you run away. Or Imagine a mob heading towards you as a healer. Pop UV to keep them at bay until the tank can regain control. Or imagine getting ganked somewhere and you need to escape. Drop UV and run away. Many uses, and a pretty strong talent in its own right. Especially as Balance.

And it is marvelous in a fight like the first boss of throne of wind. But just there.
As I said are too much situational and they don't fix a simple thing that the class could need.

So getting Mass Dispel, Mirror Image, or Smokebomb isn't cool for Balance Druids?

As feral you can chose between 2 kind of invulnerability, 2 dps increase, 3 good utility mostly for pve and 2 ability mostly for pvp.
This is a choice.
As balance I can choose between 1 solid dps cd with side effect and a very long cd(warrior), 1 lesser dps cd (mage) and a bunch of pvp utility that are not what I need to increase my surviving or to burst my pvp damage (and pretty much the all eclipse mechanics kind of sucks in pvp).
So no, it is not cool at all.

[Teriz]

Try reading the talent, only Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge or a melee ability (cat/bear) will trigger the healing bonus. As a resto, you have access to only Wrath (with long cast) or spend a GCD shifting + melee ability before getting the bonus... seriously if you want to argue the virtues of a talent, as least know how it works. For Balance/Feral activating the heal is easier, the damage bonus only activates from non instant casts of Healing Touch (so predatory swiftness wont help with that) - since Nourish and Regrowth are Resto only.

I was talking about healing to damage, not damage to healing. As Resto you can cast heals and when DoC proccs, cast Moonfire or Hurricane for your 30% damage bonus. With Moonfire there is no cast time. The DPS classes would benefit more from DoC in both PvE and PvP. Resto benefits more from DoC in mainly PvP settings.

At best you are hoping this is the case since we haven't seen it in action, where as I am expecting that not to be the case. Time will tell. I guess I just have a different standard for being "effective in a role" even on a temporary basis. Not that it couldn't be balanced right, but its a damn fine line between OP and UP with this talent.

Again, there are passives in every tree that benefits HotW. It isn't like it is currently where you transform into Catform as a Resto druid and do piddling damage. In MoP you get talents that completely flip your stats to make you fully capable of going Feral while Resto or vice versa. Again, it is temporary, HotW only lasts 45 seconds afterall, but that 45 seconds could mean the difference between your group wiping, or surviving.

Ill will grant you the synergy of Celestial Alignment with HotW, but that's synergy for 1 out for 4 specs. Predatory swiftness is great for DoC, again 1 out of 4 specs. So Resto and Guardian are just sol when it comes to spec based synergy that tier.

HotW makes all damage spells cost no mana for Restoration Druids, so they can spam cast moonfire for 45 seconds and never run out of mana. Guardian Druids can flip into either caster mode or healing mode depending on the situation since they regenerate mana rapidly throughout the duration of HotW. Nurturing instinct takes care of the rest.

I suppose, but since talents are "flavor" and will seemingly be encouraged to swap often, having 1 talent dependent on another limits your choices further. In a way not commonly seen in other specs.

I would argue that you could effectively use any talent in the Druid tree with each other. They are pretty interchangeable, and work depending on your personal playstyle.

That is your opinion. Mine does not agree (thankfully they don't have to). The bigger point I was getting across is so much in the talent tree looks great for pvp. It needs a pass to make the talents equally as appealing for pve. On my other classes i literally have multiple tiers where i can say wow, each one of these talents is useful in both pve and pvp. I really don't get that feel from the druid talent tree, especially from Tier 90.

In that case, we have to agree to disagree then. No point arguing opinions.

[Exoblade]

They changed lunar shower back to the old way so i don't care about everything else im so happy xD

[Sunfyre]

They changed lunar shower back to the old way so i don't care about everything else im so happy xD

Not completely. Movement doesn't stack or refresh it anymore.

[tangedyn]

Perhaps, but that is still getting only 1 boosted WG, or Swiftmend/Efflo every 30 secs for the cost of a slow wrath cast. It's less distasteful to me than HoTW but that's not exactly singing praise.

It's a 2.5%-3% increase in overall healing of you use it on CD. Pretty respectable.

---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 01:53 PM ----------

I'd like you to explain on how you plan on getting the DoC buff timed correctly, so it doesn't turn into overheal almost completely.
Certainly you will not stop healing top keep onto the DoC buff, nor will you spent time casting wrath, when there's heal needed right away.

It maybe worth it in the case you're describing, but those rare cases won't occur unless the stars align.

People already use SM and WG on CD now before Rejuv fillers. The CD on DOC lines up perfectly with every 2nd SM or every 3rd WG.

---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 01:55 PM ----------

Renewal is 30% of your healthpool. That's around 45k selfbuffed for me currently. HT heals 26k in iLvl 405 gear.(In beta. It's weaker on live).

That's as a Moonkin. For Guardian, Renewal heals quite a bit more than HT. NS isn't quite as much of a no-brainer as you think.

It's still a no-brainer since points #1-#3 still stands. Also don't forget with a 26k HT, you will get 39k with NS+HT.

[stormgust]

It's a 2.5%-3% increase in overall healing of you use it on CD. Pretty respectable.[COLOR="red"]

People already use SM and WG on CD now before Rejuv fillers. The CD on DOC lines up perfectly with every 2nd SM or every 3rd WG.[COLOR="red"]

Blizzard won't balance SM/WG numbers around that 30% increase, risking that it will become to strong given that 30% increase.
If they really would do it, that every druid, even those who "just want to heal", would be forced to mend Wrath into their roation. The DPS benefit will be close to zero, yet you are forced into it, if you plan on being competitive, i.e. it reads: "cast two seconds, so your next spells is 30% stronger" or "cast two seconds, so you play to your fullest". That's horrible design and goes against blizzard goal of "you choose how you want to play" in almost any possible way.

Though there's a heal, which you could use instead of DoC, that is mushroom. Place two of those instead of casting a wrath. Those can be controlled far easier and more freely than DoC.

DoC/HotW are designed without taking our toolkit, our rotations and encounter design into mind. HotW is pure numbers, that is it's walking a thin line between uselessness and neccessity. DoC may be ok as a glpyh, that is to change (I say: mess up) our rotations. It certainly isn't tier 90 material.

[tangedyn]

Yes I'm pretty sure Blizzard is not going to balance healing throughput around the assumption that DoC is up, considering that Tier 90 is not supposed to be a throughput tier. It will just be an effect for an exceptional Resto druid to get a small edge over the average Resto druid. If too many Resto druids start using it though.. then we can be sure Blizzard will do something about it. We've seen this happen back in Tier 8 JFM Ferals...