[Discuss] Why I think Naga/G600 are not best for MMO player

[Deleted]

Forgive me any language mistakes. Im from Poland.


Many MMO players fell in love with Razer Naga since it came arround. Everybody knows that for mmo numbers of buttons are most importand and Naga had most. So quickly it become one of the best selling mouses on the market. Other companies smelled nice buisness there, and joined in competition - logitech with his g600 mouse and Corsair with M90/95. But does always usefulness of mmo mouse comes with number of buttons as players think? I doubt about that.

Basic differences between keyboard and mice
Those things may seem obvious but it crucial to understand them well. Keyboard have this advantage that their position is static. This way, we dont need to pay attention about helding it, and proper pointing things. It let us to use all fingers of hand just for klicking keys, nothing else. If we have many free fingers, then we can have many skills under our hand and only thing we need to do is to remember them. This is the only task for our hand (particulary a brain who leads our hand). And we see this is hudge advantage since all players admit that first step to be good player is to stop being a clicker and start to get use to using skills with keyboard. I think most of us agree that this is crucial.
Now, mouse isnt static, is always in movement. It demands helding it in convenient way, so one of the thing we have to focus on while using it, is to keep griping it in proper way. Offcoruse with years of use, we do it automaticly, but nevertheles it demands some part of our mind to get involved. Second thing (and most important one) our mind have to do is to point things. So we have now 2 tasks to do, binded to our hand.. Third thing we have to do is to click proper keys. And this is most interesting because there is many of them and mind have to remember their skills and placing. As we can easy assume now, the more we have skills on them, the more tasks we have to remember for right hand. So we have to keep the mouse in hand (which probably seem not involving), point things precisely and remember all skill and their placing. Its easy to remember them when we have 3 or 5 additional buttons. But managing all those tasks when we have 12 additional buttons is not such easy task.
Someone can say "after weeks of using you can learn to manage them easily". Yes you can remember them well, but the truth is, that you will never be able to remember them so fine, like only 5 or 6 additional ones. Difference may seem slim in time, but it exists.
Someone other can say "but you have to remember keyboards skill as well, so there is no difference - work is the same". Placing fewer buttons on mouse has another advantage - ease of accesibility. You can put there most important skills and you can mix them with another mouse advantage - pointing things. When you bind most important skills in "point and skill" macros then you can have easy accesible and remember skills, which are more worthy in "heavy" situations than having tons of them.

So my first statement after this paragraph is that If you trying to make a keyboard from the mouse, in fact you lose the best advantages of second one.

Trap of false ergonomics.
Many Naga/G600 users claim that its very easy to remember skills placing, because they are all placed in one area under one finger. Well i think it is more complicated than they think.
First problem ,is that thumb is not the most flexible and precise finger of our hand. Aproximately we can assume that most precise is index and middle one, thumb is third and two other are the least precise. So thumb not leads here, but nevertheless it has most work to do on G600/naga mouses. Many g600/naga owners say that this is advantage, because as i wrote before, thay can easier to remember skills and manage them. But the most importand thing to understand is, that ease to remember doesnt always come with the best ergonomics. I'll take keyboard typing learning as most obvious example . The easiest way to type on keyboard, and the most common one of starting using it, is to type with two index fingers. The only thing we have to do is to rember buttons placing (which is very easy) so after awhile we can type quite fast. But offcourse this way, is no the best one as as we know. Downside of this, is we have to always look on keyboard and no matter how fast we are, we'll never be as fast with 2 fingers as people who use 10 fingers almost simultaneusly.
Typing with both hand is actually much harder to learn at first. It's becauselearning buttons placment is not the only task our brain have to do. In fact, it dont have to remember it at all. The key in this method, is to learn which fingers coresspond to which keys, and remeber what move of this finger we have to make to get particular key. At the beginning, it demands much effort from our memory, but once you get it, you dont have to remember anything. Movements become natural to you, and you dont think about them.

As another short example i want to ask you all: what is easier in using WASD? Having each finger for one direction, or using all of them with index key?

The same is with mouse buttons. Using so many of them may seem to easy at first, but the key is to make them spread arround under many fingers. Learnig curve is more harsh this way, but it procs more in long term alike learning using skills with keyboard instead of clicking them with mouse.

So the second statement of mine is that it's crucial to have buttons spread wisely on mouse. Dont have more than 3 buttons to manage by one finger. IMO optimal is to have 4-5 buttons under finger and 2 for each.

Get out of here big handers!
Third nagas/g600 (and Corsair M90 as well) sin is that so many buttons is placed side by side in quite small area. This demands more focus for proper clicking by middle handers and almost impossible to click without missclicks by big handers. Even if they manage to learn to do it properly with time, it will demand from them some big effort.
And another thing, that comes with it, is that last line of buttons is not accesible by most of users. When i was pointing it out on YT under related movies, many resentful people came and started to deny it. Offcourse I understand that those, who reacted this way, could be small handed persons. But i have many accounts on many game and it forums, and when there is some duscussion about naga or g600, 70-80% their owners admits that they dont use those last buttons, because they're hard or impossible to reach. Even famous Swifty, who play with it and make naga giveaways, admitted in his review that he dont use them.
Last dowside of this, is that you dont have place to place thumb for lifting mouse. Its huge disadvantage for low sense players.

This leads again to conclusion from second paragraph.


I think is the best to really seriosly (and honestly) think about our comfort of use before (or even after) we buy things. The worst thing we can do, is to buy under influence of advertisements, famous game personalities or crowd hype. Making a conclusions from all those informations, mouses with best ergonomics and button placement seem to be : G700 , Steelseries Cataclysm, Steelseries Legendary/Gold, G500, CM Storm Inferno, Genius Deathtaker (maybe Gila as well) Tt eSports Black Element. In some way we can put here Naga Hex and Saitek MMO 7 as well. Offcourse it doesnt mean that all of them are good. SS mouses have some issues with software, firmware and also have seen some problems with doubleclicks. Inferno, Naga and Saitek have bad philips sensor, so they wont be sufficient for fps games and those gamers who already own some mouses with decent sensor (especially Deathadder, Abyssus, Logitech G400, Cmstorm Spawn, Cmstorm Recon, Roccat Savu).

And what do you think people, and what your experiences? I invite you to discuss about all of those.

[jmacphee9]

you wrote all that to say you dont like the naga and g600?

for someone that plays with one, i have no plans to play an mmo without ever again. its my personal preference, and you act like they are difficult to use, i dont have to focus on my mouse whatsoever, its like driving a stick shift, once you get used to it it just becomes something you do without thinking.

[elrui]

you wrote all that to say you dont like the naga and g600?

for someone that plays with one, i have no plans to play an mmo without ever again. its my personal preference, and you act like they are difficult to use, i dont have to focus on my mouse whatsoever, its like driving a stick shift, once you get used to it it just becomes something you do without thinking.

While I agree with the OP about the lack of proper ergonomics for large hands I cannot play without a Naga now. I adapted my grip and arm positioning to allow a comfortable playing posture and my thumb has adapted as well I suppose.

[BicycleMafioso]

Ergonomics aside, I just don't find either useful, I don't think the button placement is good, I don't think there's a need for those kinds of buttons.
I have a naga. I really dislike it. I disagree on it taking a lot of time to get used to, but actually using it over the keyboard slows you (read: me) down.

Then again, I'm not everyone, and there being options for everyone is great! I personally feel that Razer's alternative is the least good. If I'd have to recommend a MMB-mouse (mass-multi-button, launching it here!), it'd be the M.M.O.7 or the Vengeance M90.

[The One Percent]

you wrote all that to say you dont like the naga and g600?

At least he gave his opinion in a constructive way instead of the usual "lol is sucks everyone who likes is stupid" which is the typical style of most gaming forums.

Even though I love my Naga and g600 I understand where OP is coming from.

[asb]

I agree with you in general here and am not too fond of any of the MMO mice I've bought myself, but I did think you entirely missed one big point. While there certainly are those that prioritize Naga buttons for their primary abilities, it seems to me the most common use of these mice is just to have a few extra buttons so they can bind cooldowns and situational abilities. Not everyone who plays this game has an aptitude towards gaming, and I've inferred that the average player may have to choose between an MMO mouse and clicking their less-used abilities. On that same note, most people can't recognize a subpar sensor and liftability is a non-issue because they run 2k cpi.

If someone thinks a Naga is better than a G400 or Zowie AM, they're exactly the type of person the thing is marketed towards and it probably even is better for their needs.

[Rixarius]

I've never been in a situation where my Naga caused me to miss anything in a raid. In fact, since I've started using it, my performance overall has gone up because of how easy it is to bind on it.

[Deleted]

you wrote all that to say you dont like the naga and g600?

for someone that plays with one, i have no plans to play an mmo without ever again. its my personal preference, and you act like they are difficult to use, i dont have to focus on my mouse whatsoever, its like driving a stick shift, once you get used to it it just becomes something you do without thinking.

No, i didnt mean to only say i dont like naga/g600. Yes, its true but it was not my main purpose (it would be totally childish). I wanted to provoke past/present/future owners for discussion about their ergonomics. And I dont act like theyre difficult to use. Read carefully what i wrote about typing on keyboard.

[Mallish]

It really isn't that hard to remember all the binds on the naga, i have all buttons bound to something +ctrl/shitft modifiers and remember what each button does.

[Tucci]

I regret using the Naga because once you get used to playing with it you can never go back and have to replace it with another one instead of a cheaper regular mouse if it breaks...which it does. It's genius though, sell cheap quality but expensive products that break quickly and require you to replace them or else you can't even play your favorite game. Love the mouse when it works though. Just hate that they all have the double click issue. (solved at least temporarily with contact cleaner)

[BicycleMafioso]

I regret using the Naga because once you get used to playing with it you can never go back

This is one of the most annoying arguments thrown around.
Not only is it completely and thoroughly wrong, it's completely a-critical.

[noteworthynerd]

This is one of the most annoying arguments thrown around.
Not only is it completely and thoroughly wrong, it's completely a-critical.

I'm not sure that this argument is "wrong", because people do become so accustomed to MMO mice that they refuse to play without them. I've seen raids cancelled because a Naga broke and the only alternative was a standard mouse, they refused to even try to play without it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: my biggest dislike about MMO mice is that people use them as a "crutch" and then cannot or will not perform without them.

[BicycleMafioso]

I'm not sure the argument is "wrong" in that people do become so accustomed to MMO mice that they refuse to play without them. I've seen raids cancelled because a Naga broke and the only alternative was a standard mouse, they refused to even try to play without it.

"Once you go Naga, you can't go back" isn't wrong? O.o
Yes, some people refuse to play without it, but that's hardly the same as saying that the Naga is the right solution for everyone, always. Which, essentially, most people end up saying. "Get a Naga and don't look back" seems to be the standard answer for gaming mice recommendation.

[inux94]

I've got a G400 at home, my workplace uses Sensei. Whenever I play at work I get kind of thrown off the first few matches because the G400 is much higher compared to the Sensei.

His argument isn't wrong, but there's nothing wrong with getting used to something new.

[noteworthynerd]

"Once you go Naga, you can't go back" isn't wrong? O.o

"Can't go back" is certainly wrong, "won't go back" is, unfortunately, far too common. I'm definitely not saying MMO mice are right for everyone, in fact, I'd say they're mostly right for no one; I'm a big proponent of keeping keybinds on the keyboard (with the exception of a 4th and 5th mouse button).

[asb]

"Once you go Naga, you can't go back" isn't wrong? O.o
Yes, some people refuse to play without it, but that's hardly the same as saying that the Naga is the right solution for everyone, always. Which, essentially, most people end up saying. "Get a Naga and don't look back" seems to be the standard answer for gaming mice recommendation.

That's sort of a semantics argument, but you're both right. Nobody's actually incapable of switching back to a regular mouse, but they're so used to playing that way that remapping all their abilities and relearning a different set of binds seems far too much of a chore. "Can't" and "won't" largely overlap in terms of end result.

[vesseblah]

"Once you go Naga, you can't go back" isn't wrong? O.o
Yes, some people refuse to play without it, but that's hardly the same as saying that the Naga is the right solution for everyone, always. Which, essentially, most people end up saying. "Get a Naga and don't look back" seems to be the standard answer for gaming mice recommendation.

I got Naga after I had already used Logitech G13 for more than year, and it was complete waste of money. At least for me 5 button mouse along with decent keyboard is totally fine, the tiny buttons on Naga are just annoying and really hard to get used to more than ~6 of 'em making it kinda pointless compared to regular mice.

Sold it away for half price after about 5 months of use and now with Logitech G700 instead. It has manageable number of buttons on the side under thumb (kinda like Razer Hex), just enough to complement G13, but comes with superior ergonomics for palm grip that nothing from Razer can deliver. Best thing with G700 is that when you use it in a powered USB port you can use the standard micro USB cable for charing phone overnight, or for transfering data from phone/tablet into PC.


So yeah, you can indeed go back, rather easily even.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

"Can't go back" is certainly wrong, "won't go back" is, unfortunately, far too common. I'm definitely not saying MMO mice are right for everyone, in fact, I'd say they're mostly right for no one; I'm a big proponent of keeping keybinds on the keyboard (with the exception of a 4 and 5 mouse button).

Yeah, I've used a 4+wheel click Intellimouse 3 for the last 4-5 years, it has lately developed an annoying "double-click" that I assume is easy to fix if you know how (probably a wonky switch contact) but I don't ever wish I had more mouse buttons.

[Deleted]

I didnt have such problems with mouse but i found myself in same situation with Saitek PZ31A once. I play with it in cRPGs, hns (torchlight etc.), fps (stalker, bioshock) and offcourse mmo's. When i had problem with 12 button (which was my shift key in WoW) then i had to take a break from games when i sent it for repair. Playing with keyboard was jus soo uncomfortable to me. It jus seemed to me soo awkward to use all skills and simultaneusly move with 3 fingers on WASD, which on PZ31A were exclusivly for skills.

It really isn't that hard to remember all the binds on the naga, i have all buttons bound to something +ctrl/shitft modifiers and remember what each button does.

I repeat second time. Its not about difficulties with remembering, because as i stated with first post, you can always get use to it. It just the difference with ergonomics and none of ergonomics. I had teacher in highschool who was typing with 2 index fingers. And she was doing it reaally fast, faster than anyone that i knew in that time. Bu she would never beat person who learn typing with all fingers. No matter how many practice she would take to compete with such typist, she just wont beat average person who uses both hands.
The analogy is the same with naga. Having so many tight placed buttons under 1 finger will never be so ergonomical as having those buttons spread for all fingers (and having them less).

[Last Starfighter]

I have all 12 buttons bound to my /fart macro. It's glorious

---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 08:40 AM ----------

I didnt have such problems with mouse but i found myself in same situation with Saitek PZ31A once. I play with it in cRPGs, hns (torchlight etc.), fps (stalker, bioshock) and offcourse mmo's. When i had problem with 12 button (which was my shift key in WoW) then i had to take a break from games when i sent it for repair. Playing with keyboard was jus soo uncomfortable to me. It jus seemed to me soo awkward to use all skills and simultaneusly move with 3 fingers on WASD, which on PZ31A were exclusivly for skills.


I repeat second time. Its not about difficulties with remembering, because as i stated with first post, you can always get use to it. It just the difference with ergonomics and none of ergonomics. I had teacher in highschool who was typing with 2 index fingers. And she was doing it reaally fast, faster than anyone that i knew in that time. Bu she would never beat person who learn typing with all fingers. No matter how many practice she would take to compete with such typist, she just wont beat average person who uses both hands.
The analogy is the same with naga. Having so many tight placed buttons under 1 finger will never be so ergonomical as having those buttons spread for all fingers (and having them less).

Except the Naga isn't meant to replace your keybinds. If you're spamming your rotation with your naga, of course it's going to be inefficient. So your teacher analogy isn't the greatest. The design is to have more options easier to reach. If you wanted to, you could bind your num pad to it to open up more keybindings or macros. It's great for cd's, abilities you aren't going to use every second. I'm sure there are people that have most of their abilities on their naga, but that isn't what makes it nice to have.