Is it? Because, as far as dps and healing required, it's actually rather easy. If you take the time to make sure people know when to go up/down for their group and which nests need a tank, the fight is tuned such that it's really easy on 25s. It's pretty darn easy on 25 heroic.
That would make gearing up in 10-mans way faster than in 25s. 25-man guilds have plenty of bad loot RNG, too, but they increased the loot drops in 25-mans to encourage them slightly. However, it still doesn't take a lot less time to gear up in 25's. Go look at average ilvl for 10-man and 25-man guilds around the same progression level. From what I've seen, they're about the same.
Last edited by Mctriple; 2013-05-13 at 12:44 PM.
We must always be careful with how we define 'easy' because all of these things are relative. His point was that Ji-Kun is, relatively speaking, significantly tougher on 25 than it is on 10, because this tier has some pretty big differences when it comes to order-of-progression when one compares 10m and 25m guilds. Go ahead and look at WoWprogress; nearly every single 10m guild that is 2/13 has Ji-Kun as the second boss down. This isn't an accident. 25s are much different, boss order is far more dependent on each individual guild when it comes to 25s.
Yeah, yeah, so you still think that 10man and 25man are equal? I was able to solo tank Twins on 10man, getting up to 8 stacks of debuff in p2 before it was almost one-shotting me through cooldowns, whilst I can hardly take 4 on 25man. You are forced to 2-tank it in 25man.
Also, we did not have any stacked raid for 10man, we just went with whatever people we had online.
Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another pointless 10vs25 debate, but just accept that those 2 raiding sizes are different and 25man is tuned somewhat tighter. Yes, we get better drops, but honestly, about 90% of normal non-TF loot gets sharded already. Or goes for offspecs.
I'm speaking of relative ease when I mention Ji-Kun in 25s. It was easier than other bosses. More 25-mans should go after that fight sooner in my opinion. If you have a RL that takes the time to download a spreadsheet and give proper assignments, you're pretty much already done. Again, the DPS and healing requirements to do that fight are pretty easy compared to.. Horridon, Tortos, and Megaera.
The problem is that ToT has no atmosphere at all so people cannot be bothered to raid it.
There's half a dozen Everquest expansions (at least) that would like to have words with you. Scars of Velious/Planes of Power defined raiding for early WoW - that's where Furor and Tigole cut their teeth raiding. WoW didn't beat Everquest because it had better raids - WoW won because it was always and forever vastly more casual than EQ (and that's a good thing).
My Guild has had it very rough this tier as well. We have always branded ourselves as "hardcore on a casual schedule" and clear all content usually world 300s. DS was a good tier for us because we got Ultraxion at 0% the week before the 5%.
Recruitment is near impossible because even if you are on a casual schedule the personal demands for heroic encounters is at such a high level in 25s that recruits all either have entitlement problems or realize they prefer 10m.
This isn't a 10v25 debate. 10 is obviously a better fit for most raiders in modern WoW and I really wish they could address this somehow soon.
I am used to a fair bit of stress being the GL/RL but it had escalated this expansion to near intolerable levels. I can't be the only 25m guild leader near the end of his rope.
I'm an exceptional player, but I choose not to raid. I just can't justify sticking to a schedule on week nights, I prefer to have a social life. If Blizzard brought back incentives to raid, like removing titles and mounts when content becomes outdated, then I'd make time to raid. But until that day I'll just enjoy LFR and play at my own pace.
Semi-hardcore 25-mans are probably the 25-man audience that is feeling the strain the most. Despite being competitive, the progression can be held back by a very small number of players. Cutting down to 10-man will become an increasingly attractive alternative. If it's not an attractive alternative to the guild, it will be for individual players.
It is not surprising to me that the 25-mans left are generally either very dedicated or casual. It doesn't help that there seems to be a lack of raiders.
As far as the other discussion goes, I wouldn't bother comparing Ji-kun on 25-man and 10-man. They're different fights.
Last edited by Keoren; 2013-05-13 at 03:18 PM.
Semi-Hardcore = 3/4 nights a week with mild progression(2-4 bosses HC at this point).
We have so far lost 3 raid nights due to holidays that have happened in Europe(Easter etc.), so my guild would probably be 3/13 25HC atm, but we are 2/13 25HC atm(Jin'Rokh and Tortos).
The amount of false information on these forums is astonishing. People arguing that it's hard to gear up in a 25 man.
A 11/13 Heroic guild in my region required a warlock. One of their raiders power leveled a warlock. Within 2 resets, the warlock was ilevel 532. Armory
My main, also a warlock, who is 13/13 Heroic. Having cleared 8+ weeks and 2 additional Heroic bosses, is 532. Armory
On topic though, recruitment at the moment is hard regardless of which format you're raiding. Be it 10/25/Hardcore/Semi-hardcore. There simply aren't many quality players left who are interested in putting in that little extra time for raiding, regardless of how progressed you are already.
People are actually arguing thats its hard to gear up in a 25 man? People, I'm about to quit the fucking game since I still have 520 ilvl with 11/13 H heroics down in 10 man. Didnt get a single piece since 2 months or so, and I still am using the DMF trinket... ~.~