Vengeance is only part of the problem, but I do think it needs a nerf on some level (hopefully after I level up my prot pally and get the lich king heroic mount lol) - the other half is that active mitigation is far better then regular mitigation (dodge and parry), to the point where you want to reforge out of dodge/parry gear or not even equip it. Active mitigation is a lot more interesting though then the old model, so I don't see this problem going away.
At this point ? Probably not enough for people to care / actually try hard.
If the difference between me mashing 2 buttons (macro + SotR) and having max survivability and actually having a sort of priority system + pressing extra 4 or so buttons for the same dmg intake but a whole 25k dps i don't think a lot of people would even bother pushing dps.
Ok, don't take this as an insult or anything, but might I ask for the clarification about what your current raiding mode is?
Because if you're someone who is in current content heroics, you should know what vengeance does.
On topic, I simply don't understand the hate towards vengeance. You're not going to lose your DPS spot over another tank. That's not how vengeance works 'rotating tanks' for max vengeance doesn't work, they will all have a crap stack of vengeance.
The issue isn't vengeance. The issue is solo tanking. Show me a raden where he is not being solotanked. Show me a horridon tank rank who didn't solo tank him. Show me an iron Qon rank without solotanking. These, and other fights are made with the intention of only half uptime of vengeance on any given tank on any given time. If you reduce a tank, your vengeance on the other tank will skyrocket, and you will also gain another DPS.
The vengeance cap is useless, the only boss until now that actually brings you higher than it is raden and animus zerg, nothing else.
Blizzard should just get rid of the extra vengeance from getting crit (I'm abusing this too) and voidzones (same, I abuse it too); why shouldn't you use the tools you've got to work with. Bit really, as far as I've seen they're going to do just that. So far in DoO there are many mechanics that award you no vengeance at all, and they're working on debuffs that can't be removed by HoPs. Those two changes will go a long way to reduce tank damage.
And still, as a tank that's been tanking and raiding since vanilla, MoP made me fell in love even more with tanking, active mitigation was the best thing ever, and working around vengeance is even more fun. (Unless it's the blatantly OP voidzone/sit thing).
I'm well aware of what vengeance does, are you?
Enlighten me as to the problem you have with my post's logic rather than trying ask me a completely irrelevant question, please.
---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:00 AM ----------
Let me put it this way, I'll ask two questions:
About at what difference (roughly) would you begin to prefer to take a DPS over another? (so for instance, 2 DPS that are 10k apart is probably not a large difference to confidently say 1 is better than another).
What about for tanks? (Again, these numbers don't have to be exact, just ballpark as to what order of magnitude we're looking at).
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-28 at 05:01 AM.
This is why warriors are being buffed so heavily for 5.4; their damage wasn't in the same stratosphere as similarly geared paladins and monks, which means if you're going to argue that "bosses are tuned around tank damage" you'd better make sure they're balanced properly.
Until now, they haven't been.
You've said it far better than I could.
I've seen a few people in this thread saying to nerf veng and bring back threat as a real mechanic, anyone that thinks that could be in anyway fun for more than a fraction of tanks that happen to be at just the correct gear level relative to the dps, don't have a clue how threat works.
This sums it up. Worst. Ideas. Ever.
Would be a pain to scale def abilities with stamina.
Tanks shouldnt do less dps by default. A good tank should still be able to beat an average dps..
Why change something that isnt broken, move threat boost to vengance ??
Threat is a horrible boring mechanic and i remember when it did matter, no ty.
You cant give AM a more important role lol, you play dps ?
Sure, give more fun tank encounters, im all for it.
Tanking has never been about threat and stayin alive, its the foundation but extremely little part of it, focus tanking into that and most tank will quit once again (hi cata queues)
Expanding on why attempting to make threat challenging is a terrible idea.
Tank A is well geared and is raiding with average geared dps and a hunter + rogue
Tank B is under geared and raiding with well geared dps non of which are hunters/rogues
If you make it challenging for tank A to hold aggro you make it impossible for tank B to keep it without the dps throttling there dmg.
Conversely if you balance threat around it been challenging for tank B it becomes faceroll boring for tank A
And that's without even bringing skill into it which would just magnify the problem, raids with inexperienced tanks are already handicapped and reducing the amount of dmg there dps players can do due to threat won't be fun for anyone.
I'm sorry but tanks were out dps'ing dps in regular and leveling dungeons LONG before vengeance.
Always' Weak Auras - My Pastebin
I literally had to rub my eyes and read that again. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's not what you meant to say.
It depends on how you look at it, I think. Warriors, for example, are great 25-man tanks because their mitigation is extremely good and they'll always have a dedicated healer. The additional Vengeance their damage relies on is also in more plentiful supply. On 10-man, they're completely eclipsed by paladins, monks and DK's because their abysmal self-healing makes them a liability if a group wants to drop to two healers, and their damage is comparatively terrible.
The sad part is that even for 25's, paladins and monks are better.
Right, I think Blizzard is balancing this in 5.4 (and has done some adjustments), but even in 25m there's many reasons warriors are just plain behind. DPS, raid healing. Tank mitigation is relatively more balanced in 25m, but in 10m other tank specs pretty much do not need a dedicated healer and some even serve as a raid healer themselves.
Overall though, I do think it's not completely bad. At the very least, for a role as important as it is, all tanks are capable of tanking all of the end-tier heroic content in guilds that clear at a fairly reasonable rate.
I think maybe you should play a tank class for about a week. Maybe you'll realize that mitigation and avoidance on pretty much every tank is the easiest part of the whole encounter. It's pretty hard to screw up your active mitigation unless you're a new BrM monk or something. Damage is something that provides a challenge and differentiates a good tank from a bad tank.
---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 04:36 AM ----------
Lol. Please tell everyone in your raid to reroll tank instead of DPS, put them all in a raid, and tell me what kind of numbers they pull.
Oh that's right they'll all pull around 50-60k, because vengeance only applies to people taking large amounts of damage. Stacking 25 brewmasters isnt suddenly going to give you 25 people pulling 300k dps. Please understand how a mechanic works before posting crap like this.
Last edited by Saiyoran; 2013-06-28 at 09:37 AM.
I'd disagree that the AM part of tanking is trivial.
On Horridon, Tortos, Jikun, Durumu and RaDen it's pretty damn important you get it right at least as a prot pally, not saying it's massively hard just reasonably challenging while doing everything else that's needed.
I definitely agree that tanks doing competitive dps is fun and important though, because if we only needed to worry about our AM our rotations would become much less engaging.
No, I don't mean to be implying that I disagree (in fact, I find myself nodding to most of your posts); and I think that, in general, all tanks are tanking the content. There are, however, a terrible dearth of warriors in 10-man progression, and there really has to be a reason for that.
See, I dislike generalisations like this because they don't really do the subject justice. I know you're only really saying that equally geared tanks doing roughly the same thing will see the skilled player doing more damage, but this expansion has seen an awful lot of bad behaviour going on; tanks taunting off needlessly for more damage, scumbagging, and different roles in an encounter (or the way a group deals with it) can all contribute.
I, for example, am ranked multiple times despite being very defence-centric and I never scumbag. Ever. I don't even /sit. I'm pretty good is what I'm trying to say. Yet, my Tortos parses all look dreadful because of the way my guild did it - namely, I took the bats but we stop killing them after two thirds of the fight while I just kite them around.
Again, I know you're not saying "good tanks do good damage rofl", I just want to make it clear that you cannot always apply that rationale.
The fights that give tanks the highest DPS reward (read: high vengeance) are also the hardest when it comes to active mitigation and staggering tank CD's. (Minus the /sit and void zones which are being removed in 5.4 anyway).
For the most part, I'd say this isn't bad in principle. Nor is vengeance the absolute worst thing in principle, though I still think there should be a reachable cap with Stamina becoming a DPS stat. But when it comes to actual numbers, I don't think Blizzard thought the mechanic through.
---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:45 AM ----------
I understand that it's engaging to have tanks do more DPS while actually tanking, but that's another point that I think we often forget. When you have fights that are meant to be 2 tanked in stuff like LFR, it just encourages a more geared, better, or even just more impatient tank to pull and tank everything and do lots of DPS.
Meanwhile the other tank has 0 vengeance, can't actually be able to hold anything (because even after taunting, with a 200% threat modifier, that avenger's shield is going to instantaneously yank the mob right back from that poor no-DPS-stat warrior). Then you have tanks that chain-taunt on purpose to have more adds for more vengeance.
Obviously this is good for the group, but as for the other tank... well, when one tank is having fun, usually no one else is.
Overscaled vengeance, in all honesty, encourages pretty bad behavior in pug/LFR groups. I can say I wouldn't be so eager to disregard my group if I wasn't basically doing more than double the damage of the DPS and if pulling more mobs than intended resulted in un-healable (for average LFR-geared healers, anyway) damage.
Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-06-28 at 10:46 AM.