Great points on ret situation

[Anonymouz]

I take no credit in this post but after reading it I felt it was too good for people not too read. This is one of the better all around posts Iv seen and people should read it and think about what is being said here. Originally from elitistjerks.com forums, again I take no credit, for this is not my post.


It's hilarious reading the comments of people (who don't play paladins as mains by the way, let alone retribution) about what should and should not be a sustainable cycle and again opening that pandora's box of who does and who doesn't have an infinite resource cycle.

It's been established over hundreds of pages of discussion that without a significant enough JotW mechanic, paladins are the ONLY melee class that cannot sustain an infinite cycle (infinite as in, without having a fixed time where they go oom and become as useless as a brick).

Want to reign in damage? Increase cooldowns, reduce damage, but do NOT mess with mana regen.

Don't think consecration should be part of our damage? Then you CAN'T still balance ret DPS around it being there (it's very significant with the new mechanics), meaning you'll have to raise the damage of everything else: This is completely counter what is needed with reducing our burst. Consecration in a retadins DPS is actually a Good Thing (tm) balance wise.

Additionally you can't have mana management be part of a spec that has no tools to mana manage to begin with, neither can we chain spam mana pots anymore just to keep up with other classes. This whole argument is about maintaining competitiveness and I see absolutely no way this can be the case if we're mana starved all the time.

Really, I'm not going to make it easy for you: Go back and read the past 200 pages (and about as much again on the Ret forum) before you come here and mention JotW again.


-Lets examine what just happened in this build:

*Double nerf to crit multipliers
*Across the board nerf to all Seal damage
*Across the board nerf to all Judgement damage
*Divine Storm nerf (now physical damage)
*JoL healing for less
*SoL healing for less
*JoW restoring 50% less mana
*JotW reduced to 45% of original

This is only weeks after the fact that a certain developer was joking about not nerfing us "TO THE GROUND BABY", which really makes me wonder what would constitute "TO THE GROUND BABY" in his/her eyes? This complete breakdown of communication is borderline misinformation, telling us not to worry and that things will be dealt with without going overboard while at the same time all this is going down? How exactly is there supposed to be any faith left in what we're being told when actions and words couldn't be any more different?


-JotW:

I'll just echo the sentiment of so many posters here: Do what you will with all our abilities and mechanics, but do not touch the mana regen (JotW). If the expansion was to be summed up in 1 change for Retribution, it's going from a constantly oom, constantly requiring outside help, constantly dependent on a million outside conditions to be semi viable 2nd class citizen to standing on our own two feet.

Take that away (or cut it in half as has been done here) and you just axed pretty much everything we had to look forward to regarding the expansion. 3 years of running around as an oombot is enough.


-Wait and see?:

The only concession I'll make here is this: It's a beta patch, we've seen them go back on such sillyness before. We're not amused. Lets watch the next 1-2 weeks of blue posts and hope for the best. If still things will remain that way, well then I'm at a loss of words:

[Trylan]

Amen!

Only thing I'm wondering is if an enhancement shaman ever goes oom; if not, then GIVE US OUR MANA BACK!

[Hawkmight]

this

[Killi]

Can't say anything else, i agree. The only thing that doesn't make sense is the JoTW nerf...

[babathong]

Amen is right. Finally a inuitive post by someone even though it was taken from Elitist Jerks forums, where alot of intelligent players discuss things.

THis is all soo true and how funny is it that there arent any other class trollers qqing about this thread. Its because its actually all very clear and informative and they cant come in and just type "cry more ..qq...blah blah blah.

Thank you for that post. I enjoyed readin it.

[Deleted]

get over it
you are not supposed to be overpowered, nor underpowered. If the nerfs have gone over the top, Blizzard will adjust it

[babathong]

get over it
you are not supposed to be overpowered, nor underpowered. If the nerfs have gone over the top, Blizzard will adjust it

AHHH...theres the first one. We knew it would come within minutes. Get over what???? This is a paladin forum, therefore threads like this are for discussing. Not for you to come and and give us some lame one liner like "get over it"...lol. Seriously man, just stop putting in ur pointless two cents. Especially when its the furthest thing away from informative or interesting.

[Torture]

The mana thing for me is the only problem, and it's a problem because it directly hits you in the 'fun to play' department.

If our DPS is too high then they're right to adjust it. If our burst is too high then they're right to adjust it.

But when I raid, I want to work my little doorfy socks off to put out the maximum DPS I can. I want to watch cooldowns, prioratise abilities, react situationally and constantly strive to put out more DPS than last run.

What I dont want is to push my toon to the limit for 3 mins and then sit back and watch autoattack animations because I'm OOM. There is no fun in that.

I don't really do arena, but surely there is going to be a massive problem with no int on paladin gear + mana drain teams running retadins to 0 mana in 20 seconds.

So, in total empathy with the OP, you can nerf our damage, but please don't nerf our mana!

[TDSlôl]

Hai guise, I herd thyr gunna make us ware dresses to.

Anyways, what they're doing is once again alienating many loyal customers and frankly if they continue with such ridiculous recklessness, they'll have no more paladins left in the game.

[babathong]

I just hopped on beta to test this whole issue out.

The bottom line is if you decide to use consecrate in your rotation, which we clearly should be able to use seeing that its one of our top dps abilities, you will go oom in less than one dam minute. Simple as that.

THis doesnt even take into account that Naxx is the first raid and is full of undead and demon targets. If we cant even use consecrate there is no way in hell were gonna be using exorcism and holy wrath. Again two more great dps abilities. Our rotation will consist of judge, DS, and CS. DS now takes priority even though it was changed to physical because CS doesnt put the RV dot up.

The RV dot also is only up on crits and fades so quickly that its near impossible to keep it up all the time. As said in earlier posts in this thread, the damage nerfing is fine I guess. It can be lived with until they see how we work at 80 but the nerfing to our mana issues is such an enormous issue that their goal of getting rid of all these new ret pallies will indefinitely work out the way they have planned.

[PhoenixKatera]

Bump, this post is dead on, give me my mana regen back.

[Paladonious!!]

Can't say anything else, i agree. The only thing that doesn't make sense is the JoTW nerf...

They nerfed JotW because everyone who PvP's was crying about us being to heal for a lot and put out a lot of dmg.
So blizz basically took out our ability to heal at all.

Wear enhancement shammy gear (off pieces) for +intell, might be a solution,
Another solution would be Blizzard growing a spine and not giving into these 4 year olds and their constant complaining. Just because they can't pound their face off of their keyboard anymore. It's seriously ridiculous.

First they go and say "oh we don't balance around 70" and then go to "this is OP at 70" to "we might give you a bit back at 80" like seriously makes me angry.

[Hawkmight]

The mana thing for me is the only problem, and it's a problem because it directly hits you in the 'fun to play' department.

If our DPS is too high then they're right to adjust it. If our burst is too high then they're right to adjust it.

But when I raid, I want to work my little doorfy socks off to put out the maximum DPS I can. I want to watch cooldowns, prioratise abilities, react situationally and constantly strive to put out more DPS than last run.

What I dont want is to push my toon to the limit for 3 mins and then sit back and watch autoattack animations because I'm OOM. There is no fun in that.

I don't really do arena, but surely there is going to be a massive problem with no int on paladin gear + mana drain teams running retadins to 0 mana in 20 seconds.

So, in total empathy with the OP, you can nerf our damage, but please don't nerf our mana!

yes but they said they were going to be selective not change everything, including are surviviablity. And im sorry qq and keep saying we dont get MS/distant closers/snares...because we can heal+bubble+do high damage. they have nerfed all 3 just to give us a dot. and im sorry i cant see a dot making up for critting on 4 mobs at once. or killing it before we go oom from poping 2 heals

[Discnia]

The argument is good, but it misses something important. There is an argument that paladins would be the only melee class without permanently sustainable DPS. Unfortunately this is just not true. Enhancement shamans can go oom. They have tools to mitigate it, but it will happen in an infinitely long fight and at point X into that fight a shaman is prevented from using some spell he might otherwise click. Let's also not forget that every mana class faces the same dillema, mana forces you to do somethings you otherwise wouldn't, be it aspect of the viper or arcane missles over arcane blast.
The problem with the JotW as it was was that it more or less removed the dilemma. Rets did not really have to manage their mana at all. In other words mana as a gameplay mechanic was nulified. Infinite mana is bad for gameplay. Every class has two mechanics determining every moment of gameplay: cooldowns and mana/rage/energy. JotW basically removed the second.
I am not making a balance argument, I'll leave that to everyone else and it seems obvious anyway that paladins need to have sustainable DPS to be DPS at all. The problem was JotW overstepped the line and nulified mana as a gameplay mechanic. If anything is going to get a kneejerk reaction from blizz it is 3 talent points eliminating a core gameplay mechanic, balanace aside.

[False God]

Lets not make this post another bitch session about pally's over powered burst and how it got nerfed. The original post was about mana regen and how it scewed ret pally's. Also, Iv never seen a pally go Oom after 2 heals, unless you have like 1000 mana and prot.

[False God]

The argument is good, but it misses something important. There is an argument that paladins would be the only melee class without permanently sustainable DPS. Unfortunately this is just not true. Enhancement shamans can go oom. They have tools to mitigate it, but it will happen in an infinitely long fight and at point X into that fight a shaman is prevented from using some spell he might otherwise click. Let's also not forget that every mana class faces the same dillema, mana forces you to do somethings you otherwise wouldn't, be it aspect of the viper or arcane missles over arcane blast.
The problem with the JotW as it was was that it more or less removed the dilemma. Rets did not really have to manage their mana at all. In other words mana as a gameplay mechanic was nulified. Infinite mana is bad for gameplay. Every class has two mechanics determining every moment of gameplay: cooldowns and mana/rage/energy. JotW basically removed the second.
I am not making a balance argument, I'll leave that to everyone else and it seems obvious anyway that paladins need to have sustainable DPS to be DPS at all. The problem was JotW overstepped the line and nulified mana as a gameplay mechanic. If anything is going to get a kneejerk reaction from blizz it is 3 talent points eliminating a core gameplay mechanic, balanace aside.

Now thats on topic and I agree with it completely

[Boobies]

Cons is 22% of base mana. The ret pally will go oom even with the 33% base mana regen after a little while. With this current change, if it makes it to live...well, ret pallies are done =P

[PhoenixKatera]

They nerfed JotW because everyone who PvP's was crying about us being to heal for a lot and put out a lot of dmg.
So blizz basically took out our ability to heal at all.

Wear enhancement shammy gear (off pieces) for +intell, might be a solution,
Another solution would be Blizzard growing a spine and not giving into these 4 year olds and their constant complaining. Just because they can't pound their face off of their keyboard anymore. It's seriously ridiculous.

First they go and say "oh we don't balance around 70" and then go to "this is OP at 70" to "we might give you a bit back at 80" like seriously makes me angry.

I understand people didn't like the healing in BGs, but another alternative should be found, such as reducing mana cost of our consecration, crusader strike, divine storm abilities to be on par with this 45% nerf of JotW.

If blizzard doesn't like that idea they should buff JotW to a reasonable amount, not what it was, but 25%, something incrimental, "surgical" if you will. Not this 55% nerf crap. That is not "surgical".

[Annaconda]

get over it
you are not supposed to be overpowered, nor underpowered. If the nerfs have gone over the top, Blizzard will adjust it

Thats the problem with blizzard
The nerf a lot quicker then they buff when needed.
They nerfed us in 1 patch en the need a whole expansion to get us right, and one patch later we where nerft to ground again.
TBH i think bliz want us be the plate healers, warriors be the plate tanks (thats why they are also underpowered in dps) and there new favorites the DK be the DPS which is also OP and still is.

[Elzam]

I find it amusing that a lot of people think that Blizzard has dynamically shifted their attention to their playerbase and has a quick response to things that are unbalanced or need tweaking once the game goes live.

Were Druids to suddenly start to dominate arena less than 3 months before Wrath comes out; sure, some lack of correction is understandable. But things like this have been established in BC for over a year without any sort of correction whatsoever. The Retribution class as a whole was the last spec held back by a lack of threat reduction, and that took over a year in the middle of BC to change.

In my honest opinion, anyone who thinks that Blizz will keep a careful eye on the game and change things the first few weeks of Wrath raiding for our benefit is delusional. When it comes to Retribution Paladins, there is rarely any feedback verbally acknowledged to be considered.

Paladins are full of "good ideas, but...", "You're built around crits and a short-game, but..." and my personal favorite "We don't have the kind of data we need yet."

In the case of the latter one, there was data since the beginning of BC that changes to Retribution, notably the reversion of 6-sec CS to 10-sec, crippled the spec. Blues hid behind their flawed design strategy of classic and BC that hybrids and utilities should not make the class able to do exceptional DPS. It could not have been long before they realized the flaw in that this leads to raid-stacking, something that they have expressly stated an intention to avoid with their new and (in my opinion) more fair class design paradigm. Was this what promoted the 2.3 changes to Retribution? Perhaps. It was a good start, at least.

I have no belief that Blizzard will actually have their ear to the ground when the first successful raiders hit Naxxramas and Retribution is once again in its most beloved position; attached to the hip to a Shaman (this time Resto for the mana regen) and scavenging for what DPS it can manage to provide to the raid. After all, anyone highly qualified using WWS, parsing logs, recording meters of all sort, surely cannot provide "the kind of data" that Blizzard desires.

It will be when the Serpentshrines and Tempest Keeps of Wrath emerge that Blizzard will finally see what they have done to a class that has seen more revivals than any other, when the casual players of the game, the weekend warriors if you will, begin to do Naxxramas. Perhaps at this point Blizzard may actually make corrections to the class. However, by then we have spun the BC wheel again.

Sometimes, to brighten up this bleak post, I like to envision Paladins as a gopher. Unfortunately, Blizzard is the farmer with the shovel waiting for you to see the sunlight.