Blood and Unholy damage tested, here´s my conclusions

[Bananero]

My gear is 3290 AP 25,77% crit selfbuffed, both tests were made with Blood Presence. My weapon is Titansteel Destroyer. All tests were made on a level 80 training dummy, 5 min testing

52/02/17:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9626

Bloody vengeance and AM up all the time, here are some numbers

Obliterate hit: 1889
Obliterate crit: aint got a single one yet lol
Heart strike hit:1700-2400
Heart strike crit: 3900-4500
Death strike hit: 1600-1900
Death strike crit: 4400-6000 (heals by exactly the double amount of dmg done)
Plague strike hit:1600-2300
Plague strike crit: 5600-5900
Blood Caked Blade proc: 800 average, not even 1k
Sudden doom proc: 1480 average
Autoattacks crit a lot: 2500-3000 dmg

Conclusions:
-Death strike wont get to live servers as it is right now, selfhealing should be tuned down. Besides selfhealing, there is no reason to use Obliterate unless you glyph for it and go frost for anihilate, wich would be very bad idea
-Plague strike HURTS a lot, im considering to use my Death runes on PS rather than HS (IT>PS>DS>HS>HS>DS>PSx4>RP dump>DS>DS>HS>HS>PSx4)
-Sudden Doom procs suck badly, not even one of them critted with nearly 30% crit and 5 min fight

EDIT: want to clarify that those tests are not meant for sustained dps testing, im just testing the damage of the different strikes

[Bananero]

Unholy build 17/00/54, same gear, same poor dummy:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9626

Tests were made under 5/5 desecration and bone shield up all times

Blood strike hit: 1000 average
Blood strike crit: 2000 average
Plague strike hit: 1220 average
Plague strike crit: 2800-3130
Scourge strike hit: 2800-2900
Scourge strike crit: 5900-6600 (ive got a 3499 diseaseless crit)
GARGYOLE HIT: 1800-2005
Death coil, Necrosis and BCB hits the same as live servers

Conclusions:
-Scourge Strike has more firepower now, possibly the only Unholy skill wich feels different from live servers. BS and PS remains about the same
-Gargyole deserves the 51 spot for its damage output, great addition
-Ghoul Frenzy is not worth the point investment, it should be changed to +dmg not +haste, or even inmunity like Beast Within from BM hunters (red ghoul yarrrr)

At this stage of PTR i can just say, Unholy still beats PVP surv, but when it comes to DPS Blood is far superior on any environment. Frost is a joke and needs to be fixed ASAP, removing HB cooldown would be the solution

[tvveeder]

My gear is 3290 AP 25,77% crit selfbuffed, both tests were made with Blood Presence. My weapon is Titansteel Destroyer. All tests were made on a level 80 training dummy, 5 min testing

52/02/17:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9626

Bloody vengeance and AM up all the time, here are some numbers

Obliterate hit: 1889
Obliterate crit: aint got a single one yet lol
Heart strike hit:1700-2400
Heart strike crit: 3900-4500
Death strike hit: 1600-1900
Death strike crit: 4400-6000 (heals by exactly the double amount of dmg done)
Plague strike hit:1600-2300
Plague strike crit: 5600-5900
Blood Caked Blade proc: 800 average, not even 1k
Sudden doom proc: 1480 average
Autoattacks crit a lot: 2500-3000 dmg

Conclusions:
-Death strike wont get to live servers as it is right now, selfhealing should be tuned down. Besides selfhealing, there is no reason to use Obliterate unless you glyph for it and go frost for anihilate, wich would be very bad idea
-Plague strike HURTS a lot, im considering to use my Death runes on PS rather than HS (IT>PS>DS>HS>HS>DS>PSx4>RP dump>DS>DS>HS>HS>PSx4)
-Sudden Doom procs suck badly, not even one of them critted with nearly 30% crit and 5 min fight

If I'm not mistaken Sudden Doom can't crit any more, it's just a free death coil that always does a normal hit. As for PS it will get nerfed big time as will death strike (hell if they just nerf the PS glyph that would probably make it work out). I hope they keep the DS damage but change the healing coefficient in some way because if that's the case I will go blood/unholy as my spec. Sudden doom may change to allow the auto DC to crit, but the idea behind the change is to free up GCD's and ease blood rotations. Sudden Doom before IMO was a nuisance because it would kill your rotation. The auto crit was def nice... but ruining rotations was def not.

[Nyanmaru]

Isn't IT + PS more dmg than DS?

even without the Glyph PS hurts good times...

60% additional crit dmg bonus on PS would be nice instead of plain 60% dmg, no big thing for PvP if the enemy got resilience but still kinda nice for tanking and dpsing...

[Partyraiser]

I've been waiting for these tests! Thanks a lot mate!
Now I'm also curious about the results from someone with Betrayer, full T7, ...

So, Death Strike is the new Obliterate then?

[Bananero]

So, Death Strike is the new Obliterate then?

Is yet to be seen what will make it to Live servers

[Tycho]

So, Death Strike is the new Obliterate then?

I would assume that the existance of Imp. DS in deep blood means they want us to include DS in regular blood dps/tanking rotations. Looks like the general idea is Blood uses DS, Frost uses Oblit and Unholy uses SS.

[Emcee]

I don't think you could draw the conclusion that obliterate is dead from that data...you compared an unglyphed, unsigiled obliterate, to a glyphed and specced deathstrike. ironically the average non crit had more dmg than your average non crit deathstrike. obliterate spec would also have a 6% more chance to crit Obliterate (subversion + annihalation = 12, DS just gets 6 from unholy talent). Obliterate also doesn't require you to hold on to RP at all. And obliterate is in Abominations might, not deathstrike.

Also, you mentioned considering plaguestrike > heartstrike possibly. For one, something is odd in your calculations...heartstrike had more avg non crit dmg than plaguestrike, yet plaguestrike was doing 1k more crit dmg. Both of them should be recieving 30% additional crit dmg, so there's either a bug in there, or you had funky data not representative (you need at least 32 plaguestrikes crits compared to 32 heartstrike crits, to have statistically relevant data on which hits harder). that funky part aside, heartstrike has more crit chance, is in abominations might, cleaves, and doesn't refresh dot. you could be clipping your dots before they tick if you do plaguestrike spam. Heartstrike also procs sudden doom, and while sudden doom is a little lackluster in dmg, it's free dmg not requiring a gcd or any resource.

Also, you don't have unholy blight in your unholy spec...which leads me to believe you don't even understand why unholy beats blood right now on live servers, and will still beat blood on test servers. unholy does a lot more dmg through diseases, unholy blight, and a pet that's dependable (night of the dead). you can't compare the numbers of the big attack on one, to the big attack of the other, when one has 10 sources contributing to it's overall dmg where as the other has 5 (not exact numbers, just proving my point).

[tvveeder]

I don't think you could draw the conclusion that obliterate is dead from that data...you compared an unglyphed, unsigiled obliterate, to a glyphed and specced deathstrike. ironically the average non crit had more dmg than your average non crit deathstrike. obliterate spec would also have a 6% more chance to crit Obliterate (subversion + annihalation = 12, DS just gets 6 from unholy talent). Obliterate also doesn't require you to hold on to RP at all. And obliterate is in Abominations might, not deathstrike.

Also, you mentioned considering plaguestrike > heartstrike possibly. For one, something is odd in your calculations...heartstrike had more avg non crit dmg than plaguestrike, yet plaguestrike was doing 1k more crit dmg. Both of them should be recieving 30% additional crit dmg, so there's either a bug in there, or you had funky data not representative (you need at least 32 plaguestrikes crits compared to 32 heartstrike crits, to have statistically relevant data on which hits harder). that funky part aside, heartstrike has more crit chance, is in abominations might, cleaves, and doesn't refresh dot. you could be clipping your dots before they tick if you do plaguestrike spam. Heartstrike also procs sudden doom, and while sudden doom is a little lackluster in dmg, it's free dmg not requiring a gcd or any resource.

Also, you don't have unholy blight in your unholy spec...which leads me to believe you don't even understand why unholy beats blood right now on live servers, and will still beat blood on test servers. unholy does a lot more dmg through diseases, unholy blight, and a pet that's dependable (night of the dead). you can't compare the numbers of the big attack on one, to the big attack of the other, when one has 10 sources contributing to it's overall dmg where as the other has 5 (not exact numbers, just proving my point).

1) You are correct about obliterate doing more damage when glyphed and sigiled, but for obliterate to be totally viable you have to put 13 points into frost... That right there will gimp damage so yes you are correct in the raw number data for obliterate, but what you don't acknowledge is that for obliterate to be useful you have to miss out on some very good dps talents that would help blood a lot more than the 13 points you put into frost (necrosis will hit hard as hell for blood, and bcb will hit hard as hell for blood). Also as for abominations might... yes it is obliterate but you should still pretty much always have it up with 2 talents points in it because the chance to not get it with 2 HS's or even 4 HS's is very slim.

2) You are also correct about unholy and that's why it pisses me off that they are buffing unholy so much and not doing much to blood and frost right now. Unholy is easily out in front of the other specs and instead of bringing the other specs up to par with it they are giving UH more and giving the other two very little (hell the nerf on MoM for blood is uber suck right IMO). My problem with that is if you don't like the unholy play style (which I don't) then you will just be gimping your damage to play another spec and that sucks to know.

[Bullshifter]

I agree Tvveeder- I would really like to see more parity between the specs- and I like the Unholy playstyle.

[Nyanmaru]

@tvveeder: Every class has 1 "best spec" and 2 "more or less competitive spec"

Also dummy-tests are shit until you bring at least 7 people with you.

Polehumping means shit, scalability with gear and raidbuffs and contribution to overall raid dps is what it's all about.

[Bullshifter]

Polehumping means shit, scalability with gear and raidbuffs and contribution to overall raid dps is what it's all about.

This should be a sig. And it's true as well.

[Bananero]

I just did an early edition clarifying that i was not testing overall dps long run, i was just testing raw damage on each of the strikes mentioned

You all are right about Obliterate+sigil+glyph beats DS, but it still eats diseases while DS not. The purpose on DS is to give 4 Death Runes to spend on Heart Strikes, and if you are tank, added TPS on DS selfheals is nothing to forget

[tvveeder]

@tvveeder: Every class has 1 "best spec" and 2 "more or less competitive spec"

Also dummy-tests are shit until you bring at least 7 people with you.

Polehumping means shit, scalability with gear and raidbuffs and contribution to overall raid dps is what it's all about.

Not entirely...

Look at rogue. Look at the top DPS'ers with rogues and you will see they won't all be combat, they won't all be assassination, they won't all be subtelty... there will be a mixture of all of them because all of them are viable dps specs and if you know how to play one style better than the other then you will of course put out more DPS as that spec.

Look at mages. Arcane used to be a garbage spec but now it's able to DPS with the rest of them although I know many mages right now are going for a FFB spec. All mage specs can really put out strong dps depending on how well you can play your style and assuming you are a dumb ass spec.

I mean hell look at Hunters, this is the class they are now really pushing to make all specs to be on par with each other if you know how to play a particular spec. Yes for a long time BM reigned supreme, and then Survival took over, and now they are bringing marks up to par with both, but all options have the ability to out dps the other specs if you know the play style.

The only way a blood or frost spec DK will beat out an Unholy DK is if that UH DK is an absolute moron and doesn't know how to play. I'll admit and give it to you... every dps class has a spec that is 'easiest' to play and get the most DPS out of with the least amount of effort, but they have made it to where not one spec is better than the other in overall DPS really... the major difference is the skill/gear of the player. The only class where I will give it to you that there is a clear cut better spec is warlock, but what they are better at is situational. Right now from my understand/comprehension is Demo is still behind, and that's just how it goes. But also what I understand is that Affliction and Destro are both insanely good and the difference is destro is better for burst and affliction is better for long fights (such as boss encounters) but both put out massive DPS. Right there is a play style preference but one doesn't have a clear cut advantage over the other. DK is the only class I've seen where there is a clear cut advantage with one spec over the others for DPS (for DPS classes).

[topfer]

there is an undocumented change in the patch too, on the ptr bloody strikes is 15% per point, instead of 10% now.

[Gomexus]

Unholy may still beat Blood in terms of overall dps just because of the perma ghoul+survivability.

In terms of dps without the ghoul Blood will win imo.

It scales way better with raid buffs/debuffs.

UH's main source of damage is spell based so things like EP/CoE are the only source of debuff increaser you can hope for.

Blood being physical based will scale better due to 10% base armor penetration +armor penetration debuffs like Sunder and Faerie Fire.

If they made EP self only spell dmg and decreased it to something like 6% and allowed it to stack with CoE then maybe it would keep up...and solve the pesky 2+ UH's gimping each other's dps problem.

At the moment though I think they are both kind of neck and neck. As posted, beating on a dummy doesn't prove much...regardless of gear and how many friends you have buffing/debuffing. Real time application is where it's at. How much average dps can be done when mobility, range problems, fight mechanics like having to switch targets, or immunities.

Beyond that each tree should have a spot in raids imo. Blood brings some interesting buffs and so does UH...both of which can be filled by another class...but it's generally safe to have multiple ways of getting the same buff if possible.

[tvveeder]

Unholy may still beat Blood in terms of overall dps just because of the perma ghoul+survivability.

In terms of dps without the ghoul Blood will win imo.

It scales way better with raid buffs/debuffs.

UH's main source of damage is spell based so things like EP/CoE are the only source of debuff increaser you can hope for.

Blood being physical based will scale better due to 10% base armor penetration +armor penetration debuffs like Sunder and Faerie Fire.

If they made EP self only spell dmg and decreased it to something like 6% and allowed it to stack with CoE then maybe it would keep up...and solve the pesky 2+ UH's gimping each other's dps problem.

At the moment though I think they are both kind of neck and neck. As posted, beating on a dummy doesn't prove much...regardless of gear and how many friends you have buffing/debuffing. Real time application is where it's at. How much average dps can be done when mobility, range problems, fight mechanics like having to switch targets, or immunities.

Beyond that each tree should have a spot in raids imo. Blood brings some interesting buffs and so does UH...both of which can be filled by another class...but it's generally safe to have multiple ways of getting the same buff if possible.

Well then I guess we will just have to see what the 51/0/20 build can do in 3.1 with perma ghoul and DS/PS spec. I still say that won't add up to UH personally but I could be wrong.

[Emcee]

Heh your talk of real raid applications is actually why unholy pulls ahead of blood even more gnome. blood is all strike based, meaning you must be in melee range. Unholy has more spell dmg, has dots that tick for significant dmg, and has a pet that can sit in ae's we should be avoiding and keep dpsing. Only thing blood has going for it in the raid environment is it's physical base, however, they changed sunder armor in 3.1 to be % of armor base. I'm unsure, but believe the change is such that it might even be a minor dps nerf to all physical based classes/specs. actually we can quantify it like this, sunder is going to be 20% less armor on the mob at max stack. unless the mob had a LOT of armor, 20% less is not going to be 13% more dmg. which is the buff that scourgestrike gets from being spell based. i guess blood would do more dps in a gimmicky fight where the mobs are immune to shadow, or drop debuffs, but overall unholy > blood in real raid applications.

[Arisen]

I think perma ghoul, needs to jump up a tier or something in the unholy tree, 51/0/20 blood, even with diseases pushes onto unholy for numbers.

With the addition of permanent ghoul in a staple blood build i think we could see a monster single target spec. I would prefer it if the trees were balanced sufficiently to make all 3 specs able to put out close enough dps to eachother without creating a cookie cutter dps tree, and the rest trailing as average alternatives in comparison.

Hoping for some more tweaks in the PTR phase

[Draekon]

I'd prefer if we lost the pet entirely. They have to many pet abilities in the game as is, I don't think we need it.

Draekon