Please explain to me how Obliterate is > Scourge Strike in an Unholy PVP Build

[Jinkez]

I just don't see how OB can do more damage than SS in an unholy PVP build replacing SS. Even with 20% armor penetration lets take a look at these 2 abilities.

Glyphed OB does 100% weapon dmg plus 467.2 plus 12.5% dmg increase per disease

Scourge Strike does 40% weapon damage plus 135 plus 10% dmg increase per disease

Now some things to take into account in PVP. SS glyphed has a 25% chance to stack 3 of your diseases per strike, as well as it drops a 50% aoe snare everytime you use it, where as OB does not.

In addition SS ignores 100% of armor as it is a spell based strike.

That already in 1 way, just utility wise, SS seems better for an unholy PVP Spec.

Now lets look at the talents that boost these 2 strikes in a typical unholy spec.

Obliterate -

3 points in blood if you want for 9% crit from 3/3 Subversion
3/3 Anhilation in frost would be mandatory to using OB
If you go 20 points into frost you can get Chill of the Grave for 5 more RP per OB strike
For 2 points in Dirge in unholy you get an additional 5 RP per OB strike

Now none of these talents, except for Subversion, which would require you to go 3/17/51, boost the damage of your OB leaving it pretty much at stock damage as posted above with glyph.

So now lets look at the talents that boost SS.

Scourge Strike -

10% increased damage from 5/5 Black Ice in frost
2/2 Vicious Strikes giving 6% crit and 30% dmg bonus to critical strikes
3/3 Outbreak giving you 20% extra damage
5/5 Impurity giving your SS 20% benefit off your AP
2/2 Dirge giving you 5RP more per SS
2/2 Desecration giving you SS an AOE snare 50% speed for 12 sec
5/5 Rage of Rivendare giving SS 10% more dmg agaisnt diseased enemy
3/3 Ebon Plaguebringer increased SS dmg by 13%

6 seperate talents that all directly boost the damage of SS versus just 1 for OB

So with all said and done, and in addition SS ignoring all armor thus allowing you to gem strictly for damage, I really don't see how OB > SS in an unholy PVP build.

[Nilaihah]

Most people still use SS while unholy for PvP, as far as I know. Unless they're shadowfrost, that is.

The damage of SS is quite insignificant, however.

I was a big unholy SS enthusiast and I'm all over the place trying to find a place in the current season by trying different specs.

[Gerian]

As far as I know SS is still better off than OB in PvP since its shadow damage and not physical and wont be mitigated by high armor targets like plate and tree droods. In a PvE environment OB tends to win since there are a great deal of increased physical damage debuffs and armor reductions on your target.

[Hedstone]

Shamans, druids, priests make SS cry in arenas. Shadowfrost 2.0 is the way to go, generally speaking.

Oblit just scales better once you have good arpen; EJ has a forum with the math on this. While it's not "fair" it's just the way it goes for now I'm afraid.

[hx9]

Now we do plenty of damage, but have 0 burst. 2300+ I can't kill a target solo, even if the healer is running on fumes. I don't run with an MS on my 3s team, and we've been having a lot of trouble this season against double heals and MS/Other cleave.

Kinda feel like a gimp warrior TBH.

[Deleted]

Warriors don't have a 5 sec.silence,or a 3sec stun independent from their character,and most importantly,can't snare from range.

[Zerioc]

Warriors don't have a 5 sec.silence,or a 3sec stun independent from their character,and most importantly,can't snare from range.

Juggernaut->MS->HS->BS is hard I hear.










OHWAIT.

[Deleted]

...and you can do all these while sheeped how?As i mentioned,the stun is INDEPENDENT from the deathknight.

[Domino_O]

can someone tell me a bit more of this "new" shadownfrost spec.
like what items you need (sigil), the spec , how to play it?
thanks

[Zerioc]

...and you can do all these while sheeped how?As i mentioned,the stun is INDEPENDENT from the deathknight.

Trinket?


But I'll give you that one. We have a 1min CD 3 second ( I think that's the length, but I'll edit if I was off ) stun that relies on us not having our ghoul CC'd, or dead.

It's nice. but it's not zomgamazing >.>



@Domino:

Armory my DK for the spec. My secondary spec is it. I use the Sigil from XT for it ( I'm not sure if that's the best possible, but it's the best I've got ) and you play it by spamming IT(PS) DC and using Pest/BS to turn B into D runes. Atleast, I think that's what I'm supposed to do. I unno. I'm more into PvE ( I do PvP some, but haven't done any arenas this season )

[Deleted]

What i want to say is that,sure,a warrior provides Mortal Strike,and slightly more burst.However,you can provide much better pressure,which,while amounting to nothing on 2v2,is still highly effective on 3v3.2v2 is DEAD people,it provides low-quality rewards,which anyone with a brain can reach anyway.

[Jinkez]

shadowfrost 2.0 is a joke

i would love to see a video of a DK playing with shadowfrost 2.0, which is basicaly 17/54 but without SS and is 19/52, that plays past 2k rating in a 2v2 or 3v3, and is able to kill a druid/shaman/paly/priest healer by spamming him with it, ps, and deathcoils

if you think SS is lacking burst youre in for a horrible time with shadowfrost 2.0

[Jinkez]

What i want to say is that,sure,a warrior provides Mortal Strike,and slightly more burst.However,you can provide much better pressure,which,while amounting to nothing on 2v2,is still highly effective on 3v3.2v2 is DEAD people,it provides low-quality rewards,which anyone with a brain can reach anyway.

how is 2v2 dead ? you can still get everything from 2v2 minus weapon and shoulders...

besides, most 5 teams don't even want a DK to begin with

[Zerioc]

shadowfrost 2.0 is a joke

i would love to see a video of a DK playing with shadowfrost 2.0, which is basicaly 17/54 but without SS and is 19/52, that plays past 2k rating in a 2v2 or 3v3, and is able to kill a druid/shaman/paly/priest healer by spamming him with it, ps, and deathcoils

if you think SS is lacking burst youre in for a horrible time with shadowfrost 2.0

This is the point. SF2.0 is our best spec atm for pressure. It's next to impossible to kill anything as SS anyways, soooo yeah.


[e]:

how is 2v2 dead ? you can still get everything from 2v2 minus weapon and shoulders...

besides, most 5 teams don't even want a DK to begin with

No titles from 2s either. Most people think that means it's pointless. ( Plus... definetly not balanced at all. )

[Jinkez]

This is the point. SF2.0 is our best spec atm for pressure. It's next to impossible to kill anything as SS anyways, soooo yeah.


[e]:

No titles from 2s either. Most people think that means it's pointless. ( Plus... definetly not balanced at all. )

is this a joke ? SS still hits harder than deathcoil + crits more often + still builds RP and snares which allows you to continue to deathcoil anyway....

also you can SS more often than you can spam deathcoil...people seem to forget you still need to use RP for defensive cooldowns as well as offensive 1s like garg, not to mention using SS in no way prevents you from popping off 3 DCs in a row once u hit 120 RP

[Jinkez]

also all this talk of how great SF 2.0 is, I have yet to see an armory link of an active DK (as in hes not sitting on his last seasons rating) actually using SF 2.0 and hitting good ratings as of THIS season, not simply messing around with specs while having 0 games played last week.

[Zerioc]

is this a joke ? SS still hits harder than deathcoil + crits more often + still builds RP and snares which allows you to continue to deathcoil anyway....

also you can SS more often than you can spam deathcoil...people seem to forget you still need to use RP for defensive cooldowns as well as offensive 1s like garg, not to mention using SS in no way prevents you from popping off 3 DCs in a row once u hit 120 RP

You generate A LOT more RP with SF2.0 2 ITs = 1 DC. SS hits like a wet noodle even if you somehow manage to keep 3 diseases up ( GL on that one ) and even worse without them. If your SS is hitting harder than DC you're doing something wrong frien. ( Maybe I am, but my DC has been hitting quite a bit harder than SS for awhile now, especially with the Sigils added in. )

And yes, you DO need RP for Defensives... SF just happens to generate more of it >.> The other thing with SF2.0 is you don't have to rely on being in melee range ^.^


Also, in reply to your other post. It's not so much that SF2.0 is ZOMG AMAZING. It's that we've really got very very very very few viable specs... and this just happens to be one of the less terrible ones :P

[Jinkez]

yea well guess what, i have yet to see a DK using SF 2.0 and hitting good rating, but I can show you gladiator DKS from last season still using the same 17/54 SS builds and keeping their 2k ratings as of last week

and its not that hard to keep your diseases up with SS, if you glyph it, it applies them for you, you dont even have to use IT or PS if you dont want to, u can just do chains of ice, bs,bs, SS SS, rune tap SS, then 2 more when your blood runes are up, repeat

also summon garg + strang + empower rune weapon + 4 SS in a row is still the best way lock someone down and burst them to death

i would like to see you do that using 3 deathcoils and 1.5k max crit icy touches

[Zerioc]

yea well guess what, i have yet to see a DK using SF 2.0 and hitting good rating, but I can show you gladiator DKS from last season still using the same 17/54 SS builds and keeping their 2k ratings as of last week

and its not that hard to keep your diseases up with SS, if you glyph it, it applies them for you, you dont even have to use IT or PS if you dont want to, u can just do chains of ice, bs,bs, SS SS, rune tap SS, repeat

...

25% chance to proc it. 100% chance to have them removed half a second later.

The fact that disease are so hard to keep up is the whole reason SF2.0 came around.




Also, I haven't seen any DKs high up at all. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Jinkez]

imo its not hard to keep diseases up at all...if your not constantly using COI to keep your target on you then youre not even playing right

2 diseases + 25% chance to apply the 3rd from SS is fine by me