Blood DPS requirements to be superior to unholy DPS?

[Desirie]

I know that blood is dependent of ArP, but how much to be superior to a similarly geared unholy DPS?


How many % ArP for it to be viable? I'm in iL 251-264 gear, currently gemming str for unholy...
In my tanking gear on armory, so won't be able to show it.

[Jym]

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t61176-b...or_Penetration

Read and re-read

[Desirie]

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t61176-b...or_Penetration

Read and re-read

Thank you =)

[Greatest Ever]

Ill start of by saying im blood spec biased.

Currently have 35% armor pen from gear: Sanc shoulders, 245 badge helm, EoF cloak, 245 crafted bracers, 245 T9 legs, 251 boots... around 500 armor pen.

I have never been out DPSd on deathbringer by an unholy DK. I say deathbringer because i just pug 25 mans, and thats my only patchwerk style fight to check/compare my dps to other DKs/rogues/rets/ferals. Unholy may be 1K to 2K higher than me on trash... but i can beat them in any single target fight from anywhere between 500 and 1500 dps. Im beating people in full T10 while im still sitting at a 2 set. Now overall entire raid dps... blood will not be higher... we are just talking tank n spank... so think about if you want overall raid damage for the night... or want to be sick nasty when when you are asked to burn a boss.

I do carry unholy as an off spec, because F tanking... and ive tried to get into it... but can never get anywhere close to my single target blood dps. So for me ive kept blood as my main spec.

------------

The EJ guide will not answer your specific question. The blood thread will just tell you when to regem for armor pen... but does not compare blood vs unholy. There is still open debate on when one spec will surpass another... just note that its similar to the survival/marksman hunter debate... even at BiS the dps difference isnt that much. At our 'average' gear levels its even less. People still want to aruge that unholy is better, but are hippocritical in the fact they havent tried out blood for themselves other than on a simulator... simulators arent perfect... only you can play your character and make a decision.

[Memm]

its completly different than the mm/sv debate because in BiS gear mm does like 1.5k dps higher, just scales alot better.
the thing with unholy vs blood is that unholy scales like shit, thats really the bottom line of it.
blood scales better because of arp, arp arp arp.
but blood is ALOT more gear dependant, in full BiS with arp hardcap, blood comes ahead slightly
the differences between blood and unholy are minimal, just gear/gemming differences

[Wingwraith]

I have never been out DPSd on deathbringer by an unholy DK. I say deathbringer because i just pug 25 mans, and thats my only patchwerk style fight to check/compare my dps to other DKs/rogues/rets/ferals. Unholy may be 1K to 2K higher than me on trash... but i can beat them in any single target fight from anywhere between 500 and 1500 dps.

Saurfang is a terrible fight to try and compare Unholy to Blood.
Blood rocks that fight. (Heart Strike cleave ftw!)
Festergut is probably the best fight in ICC to compare the two specs, or any two melee for that matter.

[cabbageloins]

Unless one of you has to take a spore out to the ranged.

[Greatest Ever]

Blood rocks that fight. (Heart Strike cleave ftw!)

http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-de...s-on-saurfang/

Read up on blood beast resistance. No real cleave on that fight.

[Wingwraith]

Unless one of you has to take a spore out to the ranged.

of course

No real cleave on that fight.

even a weak cleave is still extra dps.

Also, along with the extra cleave damage, Blood has a much easier time of Pestilencing and CoI (if needed by your raid), so there is less wasted gcd/rune usage.

I out damage/dps my fellow Blood spec'd guildie on every fight consistently by 1-2k dps, except for Saurfang where he beats me.

[Greatest Ever]

even a weak cleave is still extra dps.

You didnt even read the thread...

The resisted cleave adds up to ~3 dps over the fight... doesnt explain the 500-1500 dps gap. If we had a full cleave the gap would be even larger.

[Jeffro1]

For the general population, Just as in hunter's/warriors there is no X number where you want to just make the switch of to ARP gemming. It all depends on your current gear set up, current arp and maintaining hit/exp cap.

Gemming ARP can be more beneficial as a stat as it is for hunters and warriors. As the trade off will be Higher DC's and higher disease damage to more white,HS, DS damage. As with hunters its the trade off for higher hitting serpent stings, chimera,chimera serpents, volley for higher KS,Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot.

If I had to put a number to gemming arp. If fully gemmed your not over 1k Arp or preferably 1.1k. Stick with strength.

**Remember 45 Arp from food, 40 from elixir makes hard cap 1315 using both of those.

[Demiknight]

I think really there is no specific magic ArmPn number that simply makes blood better. Really looking at the EJ thread what you can see is that as you scale up your gear ArmPn starts to have more value... eventually getting to a point where it clearly is a better choice than adding strenght. At the same time the new SS benifits form ArmPn, I'd guess the 3.3.3 version being more physical damage may even see more benefit.

From what I've seen and read I think the difference between the two specs is just really minor. Unholy has better AoE trash. Blood has better boss, plus 1 add. I think theroy has unholy a couple hundred DPS ahead on single target. Unholy may get a bump in 3.3.3 with the new sub-spec frost build... so maybe that gap will widen a bit?

[HemmerN]

The 3.3.3 change makes uholy scale better with gear atleast

[Wingwraith]

You didnt even read the thread...

I admit, I did only skim it at first. But I went back and looked through the WOL's posted by that one guy.
You're right, the cleave wouldn't account for that. I'm not really sure what the answer is, but I still stand by Saurfang not being a good fight to compare Blood and Unholy. Like I said, my Blood buddy beats me on Saurfang every time, but I wreck him on every other fight in the game. It's an anomaly. Or maybe I just suck on that fight, or do to much utility and lose too many scourge strikes..

[topfer]

Your damage is always going to be higher with a UH DK in the raid due to the increased 30% disease damage, and 13% magic (those DC's and diseases) if you don't already have it. There are a lot more classes with the 10% AP buff in comparison.

[Memm]

I admit, I did only skim it at first. But I went back and looked through the WOL's posted by that one guy.
You're right, the cleave wouldn't account for that. I'm not really sure what the answer is, but I still stand by Saurfang not being a good fight to compare Blood and Unholy. Like I said, my Blood buddy beats me on Saurfang every time, but I wreck him on every other fight in the game. It's an anomaly. Or maybe I just suck on that fight, or do to much utility and lose too many scourge strikes..

Is it because his gearing is alot more concise? you have abunch of haste (ew) abunch of wasted exp imo (its easy to do 11k as unholy with 10exp ><) and your crit is scary low. Are you twisting diseases? are you watching max procs for garg? do you double pot? does he double pot? is he just bad at moving? theres a TON of variables to consider

[Wingwraith]

Is it because his gearing is alot more concise? you have abunch of haste (ew) abunch of wasted exp imo (its easy to do 11k as unholy with 10exp ><) and your crit is scary low. Are you twisting diseases? are you watching max procs for garg? do you double pot? does he double pot? is he just bad at moving? theres a TON of variables to consider

Gearing more concise? Knowing him, probably not. lol
A bunch of haste? I have 2 things w/ haste, most of which is from that shitty War Token.
And I wouldn't exactly call 23 expertise "wasted". I could live in the 19-21 range, but 10 is just silly.
A ton of variables, no doubt. But those variables are present for all encounters. Saurfang shouldn't be "special" where he beats me every time, while I beat him on every single other boss, single or multi target.