The power of Druid lvl 90 talents

[Teriz]

I've heard quite a few people state that Druid t6 talents are crap. I'm wondering where this idea is coming from. Clearly from a design standpoint, the entire class is getting pushed into a direction of more hybridization. Instead of forms becoming separate from each other, they are becoming more intertwined, allowing you to pull more abilities from other branches of the class. Instead of the Moonkin being locked in Balance abilities, it will be able to utilize feral and restoration abilities as well. Ferals can utilize more Balance abilities to increase their attack power, yet still be able to perform powerful healing spells to add utility to given situations.

All of this leads to a highly flexible and mobile class that is no longer merely a clone of other existing classes, but an interesting and unique class all its own.

And that's where the level 90 talents come in. The two controversial talents amplify the hybrid nature of the class in a cooldown, or a procc. The final talent is mainly for PvP, allowing the Druid to constantly be on the move without fear of being rooted or snared. Through a 20% instant heal on top of it, and I don't see how anyone could consider that a bad talent.

[Keiyra]

Your arguement would hold more water if blizzard hadn't removed possible hybridization by making so many spells/abilities spec specific.

Instead of the Moonkin being locked in Balance abilities, it will be able to utilize feral and restoration abilities as well.

Right, for resto they'll have Rejuv, Healing Touch, and Tranq. That seems a lot less hybridy feeling than now when you can access all the non talented spells. Thats just one example.

The lvl 90 talents are well intended but poorly implemented at best.

[stormgust]

Past has proven that pures are better than lesser than pures (we're talking about up to 90% or so, that's enough). If you on the other hand are a two pures in one spec by a simple button press - anyone not wanting to bring as many druids would be stupid.

Not to mention that the use of those talents is dictated by enviroment variables, and your talent will be useless the moment the variables are wrong, which ought to be about 99% of all possible scenarios.

You're also ignoring the fact, that a resto druid is more than HT/Reju/Tranq - that balance basically IS eclipse - that Tank mitigation is ACTIVE/CD based - that feral DPS isn't claw.

Then you also have the cost of a GCD on DoC. HotW faces the problem that you're not gonna leave your main role for more than 5 seconds at best, that's how fights are designed, that is with a certain setup in mind. This won't change unless you make druids(the hybrid playstyle) a requirement, which isn't gonna happen.

If I'm allow to ask - when did you start playing your druid?

[tangedyn]

Hybridization is either underpowered (vanilla/TBC with the heavy hybrid tax) or overpowered (Cataclysm Bearcats).
Making Hybridization available on a CD via Heart of the Wild is actually a good idea IMO which strikes a good balance.

Of course the current implementation of HOTW is underwhelming and insufficient for the purpose, except maybe for the Resto->DPS combination.

[Deleted]

Its not getting pushed into the direction of more hybridization. They said they want to do that. What happened? Currently we barely have abilities to use from the other specializations. Try to hael with only a Healing Touch and Reju. Good luck!! Since they moved most of the spells to the dedicated specializations we are less hybrid than even before. Except we get killing intent thing. Yeah, with that we are supposed to be able to do decent with feral abilities too, but we don't have the buttons to push now... We are also less hybrid because right now most of the abilities can be used in any form. With Glyph of the Moonbeast you can even heal in Moonkin. With Stampede glyph you can use Stampending Roar in any form. Its about less shapeshifting, not more.

The last talent row is not as good as it looks. I see what is that supposed to be, but it will not be popular as it is right now. Disentanglement is the only good one. Anyone want that especially in pvp. Other 2 looks good on paper but if you think it over, you will see, there is not so much situation where they can be useful. The only one everyone comes up about HotW is a boss phase where we need to offheal as a dps or a phase where a healer is not really needed and they can deal damage instead. So we are supposed to heal with our 2 remaining heal, but one of them is a 2.5 long cast healing touch. In addition balance druids gain more heal from eclipse. What happens if they need to switch to offheal just in the second they are out of eclipse? Eh?? No heal bonus for the next few cast, but the time is ticking off from HotW.
The other one is Dream of Cenarius. It have a 30 sec inner cd just ad Disentanglement. It provides about the same amount of heal if you use the 30% more heal with a Healing Touch. You can cast it on others too, but thats all good about it. Disentanglement is instant and makes you able to break roots. The other sie of Dream of C. is a damage up after a heal. You will probably not choose this just to hit 30% more with one ability every half min if you happen to heal. Root breaking + instant big heal is just far superior.

One more point against hybridization talents: when someone play a feral, they want to dps as a cat and not as a caster, if they would like to do that, they wouldn't be ferals in the first place. Same with all the other talents. Most of the players choose their specialization to mactch their likings. I never wanted to cat dps while playing my balance druid and vice versa. Dropping some off heal is ok, but I do not want to sacrifice my ultimate talent, just to be able to throw a few % more powerful Reju on my teammates every 6 minutes.

Well, this is just my opinion, but I'm sure most of the players think alike. They want their main spec to be boosted by their talents and not their off abilities!

[todzilla85]

its not getting pushed into the direction of more hybridization. They said they want to do that. What happened? Currently we barely have abilities to use from the other specializations. Try to hael with only a healing touch and reju. Good luck!! Since they moved most of the spells to the dedicated specializations we are less hybrid than even before. Except we get killing intent thing. Yeah, with that we are supposed to be able to do decent with feral abilities too, but we don't have the buttons to push now... We are also less hybrid because right now most of the abilities can be used in any form. With glyph of the moonbeast you can even heal in moonkin. With stampede glyph you can use stampending roar in any form. Its about less shapeshifting, not more.

The last talent row is not as good as it looks. I see what is that supposed to be, but it will not be popular as it is right now. Disentanglement is the only good one. Anyone want that especially in pvp. Other 2 looks good on paper but if you think it over, you will see, there is not so much situation where they can be useful. The only one everyone comes up about hotw is a boss phase where we need to offheal as a dps or a phase where a healer is not really needed and they can deal damage instead. So we are supposed to heal with our 2 remaining heal, but one of them is a 2.5 long cast healing touch. In addition balance druids gain more heal from eclipse. What happens if they need to switch to offheal just in the second they are out of eclipse? Eh?? No heal bonus for the next few cast, but the time is ticking off from hotw.
The other one is dream of cenarius. It have a 30 sec inner cd just ad disentanglement. It provides about the same amount of heal if you use the 30% more heal with a healing touch. You can cast it on others too, but thats all good about it. Disentanglement is instant and makes you able to break roots. The other sie of dream of c. Is a damage up after a heal. You will probably not choose this just to hit 30% more with one ability every half min if you happen to heal. Root breaking + instant big heal is just far superior.

One more point against hybridization talents: When someone play a feral, they want to dps as a cat and not as a caster, if they would like to do that, they wouldn't be ferals in the first place. Same with all the other talents. Most of the players choose their specialization to mactch their likings. I never wanted to cat dps while playing my balance druid and vice versa. Dropping some off heal is ok, but i do not want to sacrifice my ultimate talent, just to be able to throw a few % more powerful reju on my teammates every 6 minutes.

Well, this is just my opinion, but i'm sure most of the players think alike. They want their main spec to be boosted by their talents and not their off abilities!

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would also like to add that hopefully we will get the same attention as hunters have been getting, theyve had like 3 talent passes in the last month or so that ive seen and they keep getting better and better. we have a lot of sub par talents right now including.

-displacer beast turned into a basic blink, which seems redundant since theres a teleport in next talent over plus other stuff for different situations.
-faerie swarm needs to do damage, just a slow is boring since it can be dispelled most likely anyway.
-typhoon for some reason got in our talent calc when it should have been a balance only spell or balance and resto spell, with the resto version doing a cone hot. and it lost its damage. knock backs are no fun for melee.
-mighty bash is melee, i have no desire to wait till someone gets in my face to stun them. also has a really long cd. dragons roar is a 1minute cd with dmg attached and same stun duration. RLY? make it feral or gtfo.
-yet again roar seems alright but yet again, aoe blind for moonkin not good as we usually have dots ticking on people. needs something else to be fun.

[Teriz]

-displacer beast turned into a basic blink, which seems redundant since theres a teleport in next talent over plus other stuff for different situations.

Displacer Beast isn't just a basic blink. It also puts you into cat form and into prowl while in combat.

-faerie swarm needs to do damage, just a slow is boring since it can be dispelled most likely anyway.

I disagree. Faerie swarm also applies the armor debuff along with the slow. It is like an enhanced version of the Arcane Mage spell slow, except that any druid can use it in any form. Also FF in Bear Form still does damage.

-typhoon for some reason got in our talent calc when it should have been a balance only spell or balance and resto spell, with the resto version doing a cone hot. and it lost its damage. knock backs are no fun for melee.

Not necessarily true. I can think of many times in melee when I want to get one or more mobs off of me so that I can counter. In the case of a Feral druid, imagine if in PvP a Warrior is on top of him and he needs distance. He can cast typhoon, dash, then do displacer beast, and pretty much reset the fight.

-mighty bash is melee, i have no desire to wait till someone gets in my face to stun them. also has a really long cd. dragons roar is a 1minute cd with dmg attached and same stun duration. RLY? make it feral or gtfo.

So you're saying that as a caster you've never had melee close the distance on you? Mighty bash allows you to stun that melee and regain your distance. Imagine hitting an Enhance Shaman with Mighty bash, stunning them, and then using Wild Charge to back up and get your distance. Again, you've pretty much reset the fight. Also with Glyph of Moonbeast, you can cast Rejuv on yourself without dropping form and costing a GCD. If you hit them with Moonfire and procc DoC, your Rejuv heal will be even stronger.

-yet again roar seems alright but yet again, aoe blind for moonkin not good as we usually have dots ticking on people. needs something else to be fun.

Then pick up Ursol's Vortex or Mighty Bash. The entire point of that tier is to keep people off of you, and you have ample choices.

[exochaft]

this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Figured I'd quote the shorter version to save space! However, I'd like to make a slight modification.

Since I'm one of those old salty bastards that's been playing since day one of classic, I can safely say that we're going to be in a MUCH better place than we've ever been (at least in my humble opinion). I was never really a big fan, and I'm still not a big fan, of any class being able to perform two roles very well with one spec... and yes, I've been a feral druid since the "dark" classic days. While the philosophy has changed with respect to class design since the beginning, the short story version of our current situation is that our class would be heavily penalized in the long run if we can perform two roles well at the same. The new role specialization in MoP leads us into a direction where each of our roles will have special tools innately that our other roles cannot. This separation allows, more specifically, that bear tanks can have better tanking tools since feral kittens cannot access them... all of which cannot be possible with our current talent trees. Beyond the outdated "hybrid tax" in terms of damage, we can finally be balanced around our individual roles since the main tools for said role are unique to that role only.

Now, let us be a bit more specific about the lvl 90 talents for druids. I'll first admit that as a tank, I'd likely be rolling with Disentanglement just for a 20% HP heal most of the time. However, let's keep in mind that the talents are meant to be not required and can be customized to whatever we want without inhibiting our main role. With this in mind, I could definitely see uses for HotW and DoC.

If I venture back to some previous raid encounters, one easy example where I would've used HotW as a tank would be Malygos. As I'm sure other bears (and kittens) remember, there's a burn phase where Malygos goes into RP during the transition between P1 and P2... where only casters could touch him. Granted I was already in caster form pewpewing with caster spells, but having HotW would've made my efforts seem more useful, to say the least. For DoC, perhaps I could use Chimaeron as an example. Depending on your group/comp/raid size/etc on heroic Chim, getting the tank topped off and the raid healed up enough during Feud could be a real chore. Even as a tank (or a DPS), I popped out to help heal during that phase (and depending on when said Feud occurred, you wouldn't/couldn't DPS anyways... might as well do something!), and while the subsequent heals didn't matter as much, the first couple heals that were popped meant the most to allow healers breathing room.

While these are just specific examples of past raids, future raids may require/encourage us to perform acts outside of our normal roles to defeat encounters (considering we have this discussion every expansion about if X will be useful). The main point of HotW and DoC are for when it is/may be beneficial to do something outside of our primary role, without having to reduce the innate power of the role we take on (aka, this avoids nerfing any of our roles because we can temporarily overlap into something outside of our primary role).

[guff]

Neither I understand why people are upset.*It seems, though, like they think they should have specc specific dps/healing/threat increasing choices at level 90 as opposed to all other talents.*To me it seems obvious that blizz wants talents to give you playstyle/situational options with the new talents. Talents are no longer intended as a pure dps (or similar) increase.*

Personally I am very happy with the talents, and I am cheering on the inside for my choice to have a druid main in MoP! The talents seem great, the spells seem great and we all know druids are great to begin with If they now, in addition, let me be a feral cat/bear when the situation calls for it, with the right oomph (given a quick weapon swap), I will be sooo happy!

[stormgust]

If I venture back to some previous raid encounters, one easy example where I would've used HotW as a tank would be Malygos. As I'm sure other bears (and kittens) remember, there's a burn phase where Malygos goes into RP during the transition between P1 and P2... where only casters could touch him. Granted I was already in caster form pewpewing with caster spells, but having HotW would've made my efforts seem more useful, to say the least. For DoC, perhaps I could use Chimaeron as an example. Depending on your group/comp/raid size/etc on heroic Chim, getting the tank topped off and the raid healed up enough during Feud could be a real chore. Even as a tank (or a DPS), I popped out to help heal during that phase (and depending on when said Feud occurred, you wouldn't/couldn't DPS anyways... might as well do something!), and while the subsequent heals didn't matter as much, the first couple heals that were popped meant the most to allow healers breathing room.

And it isn't problematic in your eyes, that the only use you can attribute is either not of use at all (malygos) or on a extremely gimmick fight (chimaeron), where on the later you'd actually do something wrong if you needed your DPS/Tanks to offheal. The problem resto druids had there was: Regrowth fails 40% of the time.

While these are just specific examples of past raids, future raids may require/encourage us to perform acts outside of our normal roles to defeat encounters (considering we have this discussion every expansion about if X will be useful). The main point of HotW and DoC are for when it is/may be beneficial to do something outside of our primary role, without having to reduce the innate power of the role we take on (aka, this avoids nerfing any of our roles because we can temporarily overlap into something outside of our primary role).

Very specific examples indeed. Probably one of the few you could find. You're requiring abstruse enviromental conditions to be met for a talent to become useful.
That's not fun, that's something you can hardly (never) influence, and you'll end up useless as soon as one of those conditions is not met.
Also your assumption on encounter design will not happen. Blizzard won't design encounter with druids as a requirement.

In my Opinion you can rename DoC/HoTW Improved Tranquility(non-resto), because they basically are.

[Teriz]

In my Opinion you can rename DoC/HoTW Improved Tranquility(non-resto), because they basically are.

Unless you're a feral or Moonkin trying to do balance or feral damage.

[JonBeMerkin]

This is just going to turn into a nerd war and we all know it...

[Keiyra]

Neither I understand why people are upset.*It seems, though, like they think they should have specc specific dps/healing/threat increasing choices at level 90 as opposed to all other talents.*To me it seems obvious that blizz wants talents to give you playstyle/situational options with the new talents. Talents are no longer intended as a pure dps (or similar) increase.*

That's not it at all. If you look at some of the other talent trees, paladin or priest for example, EACH of the lvl 90 talents could be taken by any spec and that talent could work both in pve and pvp and be broadly applicable to many situations. Some situations or playstyles may favor one or the other and that's fantastic. You would swap as you liked based on preference or situation.

That's what I want to see in the druid tree, is THREE good choices that are broadly applicable. Let the player choose between 3 good choices. Not 1 mediocre talent that is broadly applicable and 2 poorly implemented talents that are only applicable when the stars align 5% of the time.

[tangedyn]

And the other classes are not getting Symbiosis.
You have to look at our abilities, talents and glyph as a whole package to compare, and you'll probably see all the classes are pretty even with what we get... with perhaps the exception of Warlocks, which seems to be the favorite child this expansion! Blizzard's intention is to balance PVE and PVP (although they often fall short for the latter) considering all these as a whole package. Any extra utility is always a good thing. Having more PVE/PVP tiers like our Level 60 Talent Tier is not necessary a good thing since Blizzard will have to balance us by nerfing us elsewhere to compensate.

[Teriz]

That's not it at all. If you look at some of the other talent trees, paladin or priest for example, EACH of the lvl 90 talents could be taken by any spec and that talent could work both in pve and pvp and be broadly applicable to many situations. Some situations or playstyles may favor one or the other and that's fantastic. You would swap as you liked based on preference or situation.

That's what I want to see in the druid tree, is THREE good choices that are broadly applicable. Let the player choose between 3 good choices. Not 1 mediocre talent that is broadly applicable and 2 poorly implemented talents that are only applicable when the stars align 5% of the time.

I don't see how you could say that given the actual talents in the tree.

Dream of Cenarius is simple and effective. In a PvP situation, there's always a point where you were doing damage and you wish you could heal, and a point where you were healing and wish you could do damage. DoC gives you that utility with a significant enough boost to make it worth using. The same generally applies in PvE as well.

With HotW you have the ability to become a feral druid or resto druid while you are a balance druid and vice versa for 30 seconds. Granted you're not going to be able to completely replace another class that is dedicated into that spec, but for that 30 seconds, you can save your raid or your group from wiping completely. In PvP, let's say you've just beaten someone as a Balance druid, you're very low on mana, and another enemy is heading towards you. You can cast HotW and go into cat or bear form and try to fight off the incoming onslaught while your mana recovers. If you're in cat form and you need to gain ground on a spell caster that is nailing from afar, pop HotW and go into Balance and fight him on his own terms.

Dismantlement makes Druids almost impossible to CC, and it heals them to boot. I don't see how anyone could say that is a mediocre talent. It is an incredibly powerful one, because some classes depend on CC to dominate other classes.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was toned down before release. A Druid in the hands of a smart player is going to be an absolute monster, and very difficult to counter and defeat in PvP.

[Deleted]

@Keiyra "Talents are no longer intended as a pure dps (or similar) increase."
That's true, but I don't expect them to be. I like all the other talent rows. Some of them feels stronger or weaker but all of them have potential in many situations unlike the last row where 2 talents are there for extremly specific circumstances. I want to see something in the last row that will help me all the time and not just once in a week.

[todzilla85]

Displacer Beast isn't just a basic blink. It also puts you into cat form and into prowl while in combat.

The Beta says otherwise, all it does now is blink

I disagree. Faerie swarm also applies the armor debuff along with the slow. It is like an enhanced version of the Arcane Mage spell slow, except that any druid can use it in any form. Also FF in Bear Form still does damage.

true, it still does the armor debuff but still all it really does is the slow tacked on. Feral has infected wounds baseline now, and wild mushroom has the slow talent baked in. all this talent truely does is give resto a slow, the rest is just another redundant slow.

Not necessarily true. I can think of many times in melee when I want to get one or more mobs off of me so that I can counter. In the case of a Feral druid, imagine if in PvP a Warrior is on top of him and he needs distance. He can cast typhoon, dash, then do displacer beast, and pretty much reset the fight.

well as i said before displacer beast is changed so its not gonna reset that fight. and if i wanted distance id natures grasp. and if the kb on typhoon is the same as it is now, it aint gonna give u much ground. vortex and mass entang both accomplish those goals better, so i see no one taking it. not much of a choice which is what these talent trees are all about.

So you're saying that as a caster you've never had melee close the distance on you? Mighty bash allows you to stun that melee and regain your distance. Imagine hitting an Enhance Shaman with Mighty bash, stunning them, and then using Wild Charge to back up and get your distance. Again, you've pretty much reset the fight. Also with Glyph of Moonbeast, you can cast Rejuv on yourself without dropping form and costing a GCD. If you hit them with Moonfire and procc DoC, your Rejuv heal will be even stronger.

as i said up top natures grasp, vortex and mass entang all do these better.

Then pick up Ursol's Vortex or Mighty Bash. The entire point of that tier is to keep people off of you, and you have ample choices.

as i replyed to each of your arguments, can you see the redundancies with our basic toolkits and our talents? what im saying is that the talents should be something new and exciting that we dont have and cant accomplish in our kits alone. the should be additions to our line up of skills, not 2 or three of the same basic abilities with slightly different mechanics.

[stormgust]

Dream of Cenarius is simple and effective. In a PvP situation, there's always a point where you were doing damage and you wish you could heal, and a point where you were healing and wish you could do damage. DoC gives you that utility with a significant enough boost to make it worth using. The same generally applies in PvE as well.

It may be true for PvP, though then it has to compare to Disentanglement, a fight this talent cannot wing.
In PvE it comes with the opportunity cost of breaking your rotation, spending a GCD to shift, as well as the loss of DPSing. All that for HT/Reju which is still below that of a restoration druid t's at best a makeup for the lack of the 25% passive heal boost and base Mastery. The only spell capable of beating this huge opportunity cost is tranquility. Now why they don't just buff those numbers? HT -> Celestial Alignement -> Starsurge -> dead player.

This spell (HotW as well) ask to fix toolkit by numbers alone. This inevitably will end up being horribly broken in either PvP or PvE or both (for the better or the worse).

With HotW you have the ability to become a feral druid or resto druid while you are a balance druid and vice versa for 30 seconds. Granted you're not going to be able to completely replace another class that is dedicated into that spec, but for that 30 seconds, you can save your raid or your group from wiping completely. In PvP, let's say you've just beaten someone as a Balance druid, you're very low on mana, and another enemy is heading towards you. You can cast HotW and go into cat or bear form and try to fight off the incoming onslaught while your mana recovers.

Now take a good look on how exactly Balance druids regenerate most of their mana. Not to mention that switching to a form which locks you out of most of your defensive spells/utility spells certainly isn't exactly a wise thing to do.

If you're in cat form and you need to gain ground on a spell caster that is nailing from afar, pop HotW and go into Balance and fight him on his own terms.

Or you could just use one of those awesome mobility/control abilities feral get ahold of in MoP (either by talents or symbiosis). You definitely won't be able to keep up with a class, which has access to 100% of it's toolkit, while you're down to 3 spells.

Dismantlement makes Druids almost impossible to CC, and it heals them to boot. I don't see how anyone could say that is a mediocre talent. It is an incredibly powerful one, because some classes depend on CC to dominate other classes.

No one ever did say this. Everyone agress that disentaglement is the obvious choice for both PvP and PvE.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was toned down before release. A Druid in the hands of a smart player is going to be an absolute monster, and very difficult to counter and defeat in PvP.

What did you expect with a talent tree, which has "PvP" written on all of it's row. Two CC tiers, one mobility and a third mobility tier, an healing tier with incredible utility. It's like they're trying to fix all of our cataclysm shortcomings with this talent tree.

[tangedyn]

In PvE it comes with the opportunity cost of breaking your rotation, spending a GCD to shift, as well as the loss of DPSing. All that for HT/Reju which is still below that of a restoration druid t's at best a makeup for the lack of the 25% passive heal boost and base Mastery.

Actually as PVE Feral or Guardian, I'm inclined towards taking Dream of Cenarius just to combo with Nature's Swiftness...

[Keiyra]

DoC gives you that utility with a significant enough boost to make it worth using. The same generally applies in PvE as well.

I disagree for pve. Spending 2+sec casting a non mastery/spec boosted wrath to get 30% on one heal is not worth it. You'd be better off just casting 2 heals. Same for dpsing. The only time its worth it is to get a 30% boost to Tranq or to combo with NS. At least for pve, DoC is basically reads, makes your Tranq/NS 30% stronger at the cost of a 2+sec cast. And that's assuming it doesn't need to hit, 17% miss chance for resto would SUCK if it has to hit to work. That's rather limiting and boring imo.

With HotW you have the ability to become a feral druid or resto druid while you are a balance druid and vice versa for 30 seconds. Granted you're not going to be able to completely replace another class that is dedicated into that spec, but for that 30 seconds, you can save your raid or your group from wiping completely.

Debatable, you'll be missing mastery, spec bonus, several key abilities, CD's, gearing/trinkets, etc. At best this is something that will be OP to the point of stacking abuse, or UP and only rarely applicable.

In PvP...

personally not interested in pvp. HoTW and DoC have more use in pvp than in pve, but if you are going to pvp, Disentanglement beats the other 2 by a mile.

Dismantlement makes Druids almost impossible to CC, and it heals them to boot. I don't see how anyone could say that is a mediocre talent.

Its mediocre in pve as just a self heal cd, its nice, but not exactly tier 90 quality - especially since there is a self heal CD option in tier 2 already. In pvp its so good the other 2 options are completely out-shined.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was toned down before release. A Druid in the hands of a smart player is going to be an absolute monster, and very difficult to counter and defeat in PvP.

Which does squat for those of us more interested in PvE

---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 03:28 PM ----------

@Keiyra "Talents are no longer intended as a pure dps (or similar) increase."
That's true, but I don't expect them to be. I like all the other talent rows. Some of them feels stronger or weaker but all of them have potential in many situations unlike the last row where 2 talents are there for extremly specific circumstances. I want to see something in the last row that will help me all the time and not just once in a week.

That's not what i wrote Sicc, that was quoted from Guff