Rogue specific sites?

[Ferrone]

Hey guys,

I'm wondering are there rogue specific sites like sparkuggz for warlocks or shadowcraft?

Thanks

[Tenjen]

I miss shadowpanther for exactly this reason.

[Deleted]

I am interested in seeing if any raiding Rogues are familiar with theorycrafting sites rivaling the Priest's equivalent, how2priest.com, for instance.

[Mormolyce]

I miss shadowpanther for exactly this reason.

Yeah RIP

[falkiendmg]

I think rogues IS the least resourceful class in terms of websites like how2priest and the like.

[Deleted]

- repost with correct profile

There are some active community forums to mention.

Elitist Jerks - theorycrafting mostly:
Elitist Jerks, Rogue forum

WoW Insider / Encrypted Text - overall Rogue discussion threads and some lore stuff:
WoW Insider, Rogue forum

Shadowcraft - character simulation:
shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com

Other than these, I am interested to see what people come up with in this thread. I am not aware of many quality Rogue sites with proper theorycrafting people (other than some of the Elitist Jerks authors).

[Coldkil]

Elitist Jerìks has basically everything you need - Rogue mechanics are not exactly complicated and basically no one puts on discussion math validity. When it's math proofed, we only need a calculator for determine how a piece of gear changes our output.

[Deleted]

Elitist Jerìks has basically everything you need - Rogue mechanics are not exactly complicated and basically no one puts on discussion math validity. When it's math proofed, we only need a calculator for determine how a piece of gear changes our output.

It does have all you need at this point - at the end of an expansion However, I don't expect people to go to a (supposed) theorycrafting site because of the 'complexity' of the class mechanics. Instead, I expect people to find real theorycrafting highly relevant in situations such as the introduction of WoW 6.0 and the changing balance of specs, abilities and scaling of stats.

This is why I find the Rogue theorycrafting community lackluster in comparison to other classes. One can always find rookie guides on sites like Noxxic og Icyveins that just proposes a set-in-stone way of doing things. However, that will not teach you anything about the Rogue class, especially when facing a new expansion.

[Thra]

Yeah RIP

Yup. When Shadowpanther ceased updating, a piece of my rogue history had died. Was such a wide ranged and useful resource for Rogues in any capacity (PvE + PvP)

[Kael]

This is why I find the Rogue theorycrafting community lackluster in comparison to other classes. One can always find rookie guides on sites like Noxxic og Icyveins that just proposes a set-in-stone way of doing things. However, that will not teach you anything about the Rogue class, especially when facing a new expansion.

Unfortunately (imo, some disagree), there are so very few changes to rogues that there isn't much to say about updates for a new expansion, and a cookie-cutter response is the response since there's so little variance. This, the MMO-C rogue forum, does keep a fair bit of discussion (tending toward less math than EJ's discussions), and we've pretty much always got some current hooks into information from any source that is around. There just isn't much to learn about the rogue class (PvE) that isn't wrapped up in basic priority schemes... and the guides generally do explain why X affects Y (Restless Blades, etc.).

Sidenote, Noxxic is frequently just flatly wrong. Please don't use it. As an alternative reading, you're saying EJ isn't really a theorycrafting site. As with any forum, some sections are more serious than others - and historically the rogue section has been quite well updated and thoroughly disputed. This really covers the need for a secondary site like H2P - we just don't need one. Want more theorycrafting? Change rogues. When Cata became MoP, the old Cata raid guides barely needed touching (For mut it was almost exactly change constant X to constant Y, update trinkets/gear/gems/enchants, attack values, done). What would you even craft theory about?

[Deleted]

Unfortunately (imo, some disagree), there are so very few changes to rogues that there isn't much to say about updates for a new expansion, and a cookie-cutter response is the response since there's so little variance. This, the MMO-C rogue forum, does keep a fair bit of discussion (tending toward less math than EJ's discussions), and we've pretty much always got some current hooks into information from any source that is around. There just isn't much to learn about the rogue class (PvE) that isn't wrapped up in basic priority schemes... and the guides generally do explain why X affects Y (Restless Blades, etc.).

Sidenote, Noxxic is frequently just flatly wrong. Please don't use it. As an alternative reading, you're saying EJ isn't really a theorycrafting site. As with any forum, some sections are more serious than others - and historically the rogue section has been quite well updated and thoroughly disputed. This really covers the need for a secondary site like H2P - we just don't need one. Want more theorycrafting? Change rogues. When Cata became MoP, the old Cata raid guides barely needed touching (For mut it was almost exactly change constant X to constant Y, update trinkets/gear/gems/enchants, attack values, done). What would you even craft theory about?

There is, of course, a vast difference in needs and interests for theorycrafting depending on the player. We can all agree to the fact that >95% (99%?) of the Rogue community will do perfectly fine with knowing how to refresh SnD

On a serious note:
Due to the removal of reforging in 6.0 I tend to agree that not much is needed - even for raiding Rogues (let's just say outside top100). And to expand on the need for theorycrafting, it is hard to do a 1:1 comparison between Priests and Rogues; partially due to the hybrid's toolbox as well as dot mechanics being more complex than the Rogue scalings.

Theorycrafting can, however, be very useful in a current tier context. Thus, having only one real source of serious information (EJ) is a bit 'lackluster' community wise, and I would like it to be even more active. In the recent past there has been more to the Rogue specs than what the set-in-stone rotation guides have offered. At least coming from a raiding point of view. Elitist Jerks was amazing pre-MoP but has lost a lot of the old authors. When I say lackluster, I am simply considering the fact that EJ is the only site providing any valid information for raiding Rogues - isn't that a bit surprising?

And lastly, in regards to Noxxic/Icyveins I was obviously knocking them for being blatantly horrible at providing useful information to anyone taking the class seriously. The fact that I am starting to write in these forums is due to its level of useful information. So a big kudos for having a forum that is active and at the same time serious about the class.

[ymirsson]

If there is enough information, do you need a second source?
Having places to go for the sake of places to go is not making the journey any more enjoyable.

[Deleted]

If there is enough information, do you need a second source?
Having places to go for the sake of places to go is not making the journey any more enjoyable.

I don't remember implying that there is enough information (for me). Quite the opposite if you read my posts. But this is not a discussion about having a second source for the sake of having one. It is about having (more) quality sources.

[ymirsson]

You were not indeed. But i did.
Unless you call speculating about the kind of neglect Blizz will show to Rogues in WoD information, anything is covered.

[Coldkil]

I don't remember implying that there is enough information (for me). Quite the opposite if you read my posts. But this is not a discussion about having a second source for the sake of having one. It is about having (more) quality sources.

The point that Keal and other are discussing about is that for rogues you don't need all the theorycrafting as other classes, espcially Warlocks which have undergone an extensive revamp.

The discussion has been stale for a long time because (in a very short format):
- vanilla: game was new, obviously theorycrafting was born
- TBC: still getting grasp on mechanics, especially for rogues who were basically all about combat for PvE; a lot of work into determining stat weights and the construction of the EPs system
- WotLK: suddendly more specs began to be more viable (due to various reasons); combat discussion was already at a good point but that was the first time rogues had to compare different specs and mechanics
- Cata: beginnign of the "replay"; changes from WotLK weren't huge as before, specs rotations and priorities were already solid and core mechanics remained the same; only the legendary daggers brought more twist in the discussion (Sub becoming suddendly viable)
- MoP: nearly nothing changed, especially about core mechanics. More balance between specs but we're discussing about so little changes in performance between different gearing strategies (like mastery vs haste for assa) that many are not actually interested anymore.

Most of the times we don't need theorycrafting because we know already how it's going to work. Only changes we do is because of spell changes and numbers adjustment. Notable example is the Rupture for Combat question: correct usage of it is a dps gain, but it's really demanding, clunky, situational AND we're talking about a <1% damage gain. Hence people just forget about it and drop it from rotation.

When we complain about rogues being "stale" and "boring" is exactly about that.

There is much less theorycrafting because there's no need for it. There are not "too few" sources, there are the ones you need - end of story. Nothign is unknown, all is already determined. We will se an increase of the discussion for WoD - just to determine what stats we should focus on based on specs (though new passives seem just to do the work beforehand); rotations, spells and mechanics will stay the same, and numbers changes will require only variables changes on calculators - then it's done.

[Deleted]

The point that Keal and other are discussing about is that for rogues you don't need all the theorycrafting as other classes, espcially Warlocks

We agree on a lot of these points. Especially that we don't need theorycrafting at the same level as (especially) casters due to obvious game mechanics.

But as Kael has said, one can wish for more in-depth discussion about the Rogue class - and how to change some elements of the class gameplay (from a math pov). I do not mean to confuse this with 'guides'. And I am aware that this 'need' does not represent many Rogues - nor am I arguing against the fact that guides from yourself and other authors are more than enough to satisfy the average Rogue player.

[ymirsson]

What, for example, would you want to discuss?

[fierydemise]

There is much less theorycrafting because there's no need for it. There are not "too few" sources, there are the ones you need - end of story. Nothign is unknown, all is already determined. We will se an increase of the discussion for WoD - just to determine what stats we should focus on based on specs (though new passives seem just to do the work beforehand); rotations, spells and mechanics will stay the same, and numbers changes will require only variables changes on calculators - then it's done.

The problem isn't that there isn't anything left to theorycraft but rather that we are still stuck in an outdated mindset about theorycrafting. We've spent 5 expansions now getting really, really good at analyzing dps in a nice easy steady state environment that basically doesn't exist anymore. This doesn't mean our tools are wrong, the infinite dps assumption works surprisingly well, but there is so much of theorycrafting we have barely scratched the surface of. The whole point of theorycrafting is to provide rigorous answers to questions that previously were answered only by at best vague intuitions and for a huge class of questions we are still using these inexact vague intuitions. Questions like:
1) How do stat weights change in non-infinite dps scenarios like siegecrafter belts or AoE or interrupted dps?
2) How do specs stack up on different kinds of fights? At what point do cleave or execute advantages outweigh a single target disadvantage?
3) Can we reason about skill requirements with similar rigor to how we reason about dps and how do these skill changes impact achievable dps numbers?
4) Can we determine how well a player is playing in an RNG and gear independent way?

I could go on because WoW raiding is an immensely complicated system with numerous questions to be answered. When we were first struggling to get a handle on how to accurately model single target dps at all it made sense to focus on single target dps and stat weights but solving that doesn't mean there isn't any theorycrafting left to do, rather that that we now know enough to move onto a whole new set of questions.

[Deleted]

As stated above.

And just briefly adding to that - since this thread wasn't at all about whether more theorycrafting could be done - this interest shouldn't need to be explained to players satisfied with what they know. If players feel that they know everything after guides are done, then that is the end of theorycrafting for them. I think that goes for the >95% mentioned above.

However, I am still interested in seeing if anyone has more Rogue communities in mind than EJ.

[Kael]

Oh, there will always be something we could handle better, but unless I've missed some lacking limitations, we've got a really hard time either modeling or simulating a fight like Siegecrafter (as well as decisions about importance - do you need overall DPS, belt DPS, boss DPS, or mine DPS?), and that will remain a block until we either get really enthusiastic about inputs (separate the starting stats for each point, assign a likely internal CD on trinkets for different fight sections, randomize each part of fight length), simulate as separate encounters, and slap them all together. We might, in that respect, be at the limit of our current resources. I don't know that I'd call developing a more complete simulation or model as rogue theorycrafting

We have had some discussions (with limited interest!) about things we can sim or model, like interrupted DPS or partial cleave rotations (Megaera, rupture). I'm fairly certain skill requirements don't quite fit as well as DPS theory, if only for the sole reason that difficulty exists on too many different levels, and each player may struggle (or not) with different aspects of gameplay. Which of the following is hardest: planning forward to juggle finishers with <100% uptime as cata sub (lowish haste), watching dot rotations across multiple enemies, or being prepared to pick between pressing SS and evis on the inside of a second based on whether SS procs (pre-anticipation)? So long as the difficulty remains distorted by personal struggles, determining the breaking point for the effect of difficulty on DPS is going to remain an insurmountable task.


I am really interested in the ongoing hunt to answers to #4. We're mostly looking into those on an individual basis, but it wouldn't be a bad time to start talking about the means of analyzing a log (potentially making a port to SimC to copy their proc timing and incoming buffs, then following the normal rotation priority with those procs?) to see if we can make a more efficient means of finding answers for a log. That, again, though, is less rogue theorycrafting than crafting more complete tools for all of WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

However, I am still interested in seeing if anyone has more Rogue communities in mind than EJ.

MMO-C (more colloquial), and EJ. If you've got a beef with their moderation or something, you'll have to get over it.