Fixing Fury PvE

[Deleted]

The official forums (at least for EU) seem to be pretty useless in terms of feedback so I hope we may get some attention here. Please Blizzard make it so that when bloodthirst does not crit that the cooldown instantly resets. Obviously this will be a buff to fury damage so it's easy enough to compensate by tuning the numbers accordingly afterwards. This is not me asking for a dps gain, but instead I am looking to enjoy the class i've invested time into. There is nothing fun about a single ability controlling my rotation which is controlled by RNG, and if I don't have good RNG I get to sit there for 4.5 seconds and do nothing. Even if you have to bring down the numbers, give me something to press!

[G-Seven]

Does Blizzard read these forums?

[ZweiHandler]

Does Blizzard read these forums?

Probably not. But you can get more feedback from players on here then on the forums there.

[Deleted]

How about having Berserker Rage cost rage instead of being on a cooldown? That way you can plan ahead by saving rage if one BT fails to crit so that you can manually enrage if the second one also fails, gaining a charge of RB in the process. Let's say it costs 30 rage or so.

That would mean a 100% Enrage uptime if you play well, but I don't really see that as a problem since many other masteries are also essentially just passive damage increases. Keeping up Enrage would then be a lot like maintaining Slice and Dice for Rogues, except much more random because of BT crit RNG.

[Alphabrain]

It sure does make me mad though, not proccing 5 times in a row with 25% raid buffed crit.

[Deleted]

Does Blizzard read these forums?

Occasionally.

[Archimtiros]

Occasionally.

Which I imagine inspires more dread than hope.

[Fog]

It sure does make me mad though, not proccing 5 times in a row with 25% raid buffed crit.

5? Try 9 times. Twice during a raid night, followed by multiple 4 non crits in a row. That was one horrible raid night. I wanted to cry loudly in a corner.

[Sethanor]

5? Try 9 times. Twice during a raid night, followed by multiple 4 non crits in a row. That was one horrible raid night. I wanted to cry loudly in a corner.

3-4 non-crits are really common, which already makes the rotation a freakin joke.

[pzijderv]

sounds like unquenchable thirst to me?

[Fog]

sounds like unquenchable thirst to me?

Sort of, UqT just have 0 CD all the time, just not when BT doesn't crit. It's been suggested before, but nothing has happened...yet. We won't get an overhaul of fury this expansion, but baking UqT into BT wouldn't be a major overhaul.. What other talent should be in its place though? That's the kicker, and that's probably the start of an overhaul. I fear nothing will change untill 7.0.

[Archimtiros]

5? Try 9 times. Twice during a raid night, followed by multiple 4 non crits in a row. That was one horrible raid night. I wanted to cry loudly in a corner.

Sounds like every time I'm getting ready to Meat Cleave or Bladestorm something and BzR isn't up.

- - - Updated - - -

Sort of, UqT just have 0 CD all the time, just not when BT doesn't crit. It's been suggested before, but nothing has happened...yet. We won't get an overhaul of fury this expansion, but baking UqT into BT wouldn't be a major overhaul.. What other talent should be in its place though? That's the kicker, and that's probably the start of an overhaul. I fear nothing will change untill 7.0.

In its place I would have put a talent that simply increased the damage of Bloodthirst. Balances out damage of not having access to RB (and less WS) when you aren't critting. Simple, effective, and appeases people who don't want BT to hit like a wet noodle. Pretty decent leveling talent too I think.

The only problem with my proposed change with UqT is that it can lead to excessive rage. It's easily handled, simply means if you aren't critting often you'll be using more un-enraged Wild Strikes, which seems crazy to us, but works in practice. It does have the potential to rage cap us on proc easier, but procs are already a headache in that regard, so I don't see much of a change.

[xfrankiielolx]

How to fix fury:

Increase the damage of bloodthirst in order to give us a more stable, baseline damage output when it doesnt crit

Increase the critical hit chance of bloodthirst, or have some other way to trigger enrage like the T15 set piece, auto attacks trigger enrage. Or have the current two piece become baseline.

Remove the fucking absurd cool down on wildstrike and let it actually scale with haste, especially with this new set bonus for Hellfire Citidel

Remove some RNG of SD and make it more consistant damage. Mythic gruul, for example, I could be doing 60k dps or 45k dps based off of procs.

Make anger management more like the galakras trinket and have some sort of baseline cd reduction, not spending rage reduces cd.

[Archimtiros]

How to fix fury:

Increase the damage of bloodthirst in order to give us a more stable, baseline damage output when it doesnt crit

Increase the critical hit chance of bloodthirst, or have some other way to trigger enrage like the T15 set piece, auto attacks trigger enrage. Or have the current two piece become baseline.

Remove the fucking absurd cool down on wildstrike and let it actually scale with haste, especially with this new set bonus for Hellfire Citidel

Remove some RNG of SD and make it more consistant damage. Mythic gruul, for example, I could be doing 60k dps or 45k dps based off of procs.

Make anger management more like the galakras trinket and have some sort of baseline cd reduction, not spending rage reduces cd.

Your first two statements are contradictive. I know people would like the damage of BT to go up, but that would require taking damage away somewhere else. At the same time, buffing BT's crit damage would then have a doubling effect on the increased damage to BT. This is what causes imbalance. The only way it would work is if it competed with another damage increase, which is why I suggested it as a replacement talent for UqT.

If I had to redesign Sudden Death, given how large an impact it has on our DPS, I would suggest making it activated rather than a proc. IE: Using two Wild Strikes activates one use of Execute (obviously this is wildly imbalanced and I am not actually suggesting it, just an example). That said, the randomness is what makes it interesting, it's only the amount of contributed damage that makes it problematic. The better solution is to simply buff competitive talents to give a similar amount of damage gain without the random factor; allowing players to choose if they want somewhat more bland stability from added Wild Strikes or exciting procs from Sudden Death.

Anger Management and Wild Strike absolutely need changes though. I've been championing this since Beta.

[angelmaz]

Four simple changes will completely fix Fury, imo:

1. Remove bloodsurge from the game. Optional: assassinate whoever thought up this proc.

2. Massively buff Bloodthirst to increase our core/reliable rotational damage. This can be easily tuned to compensate for (1). Useless talent UqT will need to be changed or it may become OP.

3. Make Bloodthirst always grant a charge of Raging Blow, but only Enrage on crit.

4. Anger management flatly reduces the cooldown of Reck/Av/BB/etc by XX seconds.

RNG? Mostly gone. Bloodsurge cockblocking? Gone. Dry spells followed by everything proccing at once? Gone.

[Archimtiros]

Pretty sure I saw this exact same post last week.

The problem with bloodsurge isn't the buff, its the way it negatively interacts with Wild Strike/our rotation at large. Lots of ways to get around that, they just need to be embraced.

See post above regarding flat buff of Bloodthirst damage.

3 really isn't helpful. It actually causes more "spam" problems because we specifically don't want to use our resources outside of Enrage.

4 is good and been suggested for well on a year now.

[angelmaz]

Pretty sure I saw this exact same post last week.

The problem with bloodsurge isn't the buff, its the way it negatively interacts with Wild Strike/our rotation at large. Lots of ways to get around that, they just need to be embraced.

See post above regarding flat buff of Bloodthirst damage.

3 really isn't helpful. It actually causes more "spam" problems because we specifically don't want to use our resources outside of Enrage.

4 is good and been suggested for well on a year now.

The reason Bloodsurge interacts negatively with our rotation is that it can, and often does, proc at inconvenient times. This increases the "feast or famine" feel of the spec. From what I've gathered of your perspective on Bloodsurge, it seems you'd prefer a solution that would take these procs off the GCD. Personally, I'd prefer if they just removed the proc entirely. More APM is not more fun. Fun would be a moderate APM which is consistent throughout the fight. No frenetic bursts of activity followed by sitting around. Making Bloodsurge procs easier to activate would actually make the APM variation in our rotation MORE gigantic. A smooth, clean rotation with the occasional exciting proc is the ideal here, IMO.

Your objection to the Bloodthirst buff is that something else would have to be taken away. Removing Bloodsurge is a dps loss. Why would it be so difficult to tune the baseline Bloodthirst buff to exactly compensate this?

As far as RB spam, I'd wager most warriors would be delighted to get a RB every BT, especially without Bloodsurge mucking up the rotation. Then you no longer need to care if you are enraged or not, you simply RB after your BT. RB is practically free in terms of rage, and with the proposed BT change you'd always have another guaranteed RB coming up. Managing enrage becomes a question of consistently Bloodthirsting on CD (further incentivized by the proposed buff), using Berserker Rage in any gaps, and perhaps only spending your wild strikes while enraged. Tediously rage pooling until some pseudo-opportune moment runs totally contrary to the core of Fury, which is why I completely shelved my warrior for the entire duration of Colossus Smash's existence.

[klepp0906]

you mean arms?

[Archimtiros]

I know exactly why Bloodsurge blocks the rotation. I've written dissertations covering it! However, that wasn't the point I was making. And I've never suggested taking anything off the GCD, in fact I've vehemently been against it, so whatever you've gathered from my perspective is in error.

Bloodsurge does add a proc. It's variance to the rotation and that is generally a good thing. The problem, as you tried to point out is that Bloodsurge procs at inconvenient times. Bloodsurge could easily be retooled to not be an inconvenience, which I've detailed at length in many other posts. The TLDR is that I don't believe simply removing anything problematic is the solution. That's how we end up with an Arms rotation, ie: static and boring as shit.

Could you buff Bloodthirst to compensate? Sure. But honestly, who gives a flying fuck about the numbers? Do you actually sit around and stare at your Bloodthirst damage? I honest to god don't have a clue what my Bloodthirst hits for pull to pull without looking at it, because I'm paying attention to way more important things. The only thing that matters is the end result, not how you get there (obviously massive imbalances like Arms Execute are outliers). Again, the rotation and how it feels to play matters a lot more than the damage, simply because that is where (most) players get their enjoyment out of. Ask yourself, would you rather play a 2 button spec that does ridiculous damage, or a fun spec which is only middle of the pack? Note, I'm asking what you'd rather play, not what is best for your raiding progression.


The biggest problem with your RB/Enrage suggestion is how bland it makes things. The question becomes... what do you do in between that? Ok, you are always doing BT- RB -X instead of BT - X - X - BT. All this does is make the rotation even more static, doubly so if you remove Bloodsurge from the equation. I know we have Sudden Death, but that is a talent, and shouldn't be the specs only proc. Also, like I said, it would encourage us to hold onto RB charges, which would actually make the rage capping problem worse, because you would only RB at 2 if not enraged, like we used to in 5.4, without the ability to dump rage off the GCD.

In the end, it wouldn't "fix" Fury at all. It would change it sure, but not by any means for the better. The same exact problems would persist, that is RNG controlling your damage in the form of Sudden Death and Enrage procs. It would only be slightly mitigated by an increase in the minimum amount of damage done thanks to stronger Bloodthirsts. Not exactly a compelling design imo.

- - - Updated - - -

And to elaborate, Bloodsurge is rarely the cockblock in our rotation. It's usually the combination of Sudden Death and Bloodsurge. Yes this is because Bloodsurge doesn't allow us to drop resources through Wild Strike, but just try playing without Sudden Death sometime. Not only will you see your average damage smooth out considerably, but you will also notice that rage capping occurs much less often due to more consistent rage expenditure.

It honestly is the real issue with our rotation. It does way too much damage to be on such a random system and is yet another high priority, free attack.

Unfortunately there really isn't any good fix without adding a lot of triggers onto the RPPM for Sudden Death and making it more predictable. I toyed with the idea of changing it to a triggered effect, but I'm not sure the best way to implement that just yet. The best fix is just to make the more static talents (FS) competitive enough that you don't have to deal with the random mechanic, though that is of course a poor fix, since it doesn't actually address the issue, and only offers an option instead.

[Darkfriend]

If BT doesn't crit, your next BT has either a increased chance to crit, or a guaranteed crit. Really you shouldn't have 3+ BT non crits in a row.