Where´s my dog at?

[Honklock]

Warlocks are imho the weakest class in PvP but we still get one nerf after the other.
Blizzard is talking a lot about that they want to make WLs stronger in PvP but all they do is nerfing us.
Because of the crapy addon and messed up PvP and redicolous PvE I stoped WoW for over 7 month.
I´m only playing some BGs since I started playing WoW again. But I´m really angry that I started again, cause the situation got even worse.

What really grinds my gears since I am playing again, is that if there is a priest in the BG that buffes shadow protection, I can just leave the BG.
I can´t use any defensiv tactiks on a guy with shadow protection, cause they are all shadow spells that are beeing resited by an enemy with shadow protection.
Besides that every meele class beats the crap out of me.

So i wondered why the fellguard was nerfed.
The old one gave us a good spell resitance and paranoia.
Now it´s gone and it got it´s crappy shadow bite.^^

If we just had the old Fellhunter it would improve us a lot I think.
1.) At least sometimes we would have 1. hit on rogues.
2.) Even if the rogue would have first hit. We still would be better off with a paranoia dog. Since most of the rogues are movement legastenics, they sap you as first hit. With paranoia we would see the rogue after the sap and could let the dog attack the rogue and get him out of stealth.
3.) In WoW classic there was an addon called servitude. With that addon you could tell the dog on what to disspell on the enemy or you at first and second...
So you could tell the dog f. ex. the first thing you should disspell on a enemy is shadow protection and it disspelld shadow protection instead of a crappy random buff. Or you could tell the dog to disspel at first hammer of gayness or fear on you. Now a pala comes with his hammer of gayness and you imedeatly got 3 other things on you, so you have a 4 to 1 chance to dispell the one that´s the most dangerously for you.

So if Blizzard keeps nerfing us and is lying to us when they say they want to improove us, they should at least give us the old dog back and allow servitude.

[Honklock]

If you make a vote, please post which class you are palying and why you think that it shloud come back or not...

[gherkin]

1) You are talking about 2v2. In 3v3 or 5v5 it rendered rogues useless at high levels. It was removed because rogues had to stack stealth level+ gear in order to compete, and we stacked +stealth detect stuff (Eng Helm, Human racial) to counter that. It was a case of countering a counter's counter's counter. It's a bad loop to get into.

2) This is exactly the example I mean. You get sapped, pet attacks rogue, your 2 or 4 other team mates rape the rogue before the healer can get in range to help.

3) Giving people with addons the ability to overpower people without addons is a bad idea. It's like the practice in business - it's only innovative until everyone does it, then its mandatory. Addons should never be mandatory.

Blizzard is not lying to us. Slowly trying to fix the class so that we don't end up with Yo Yo based damage every minor patch is not lying, its careful design. I'm sorry you wish they were less careful.

Edit: I play a Warlock, and refuse to vote because it serves no purpose but to enable further posts like this.

[mapp]

dk pets are the best pets in the game... just throwing that in there... [= can't be killed (huddle) have a 2 sec stun on 20 sec cd (gnaw) can leap to target (aka no kiting) and can be sacrificed for a ton of health... instant summon 1 minute cd

[Xacez]

Unholy dk pets are the best pets in the game... just throwing that in there... [= can't be killed (huddle, prevents the ghoul from doing anything) have a 3 sec stun on 30 sec cd (gnaw) can leap to target (aka no kiting if you are a class without kiting tools) and can be sacrificed for a ton of health... instant summon (but laggy) 90 seconds cd

Fixed, know facts whine later

[Honklock]

1.) I´m actually not talking about arena. I´m talking about 1on1 or 1on1 situations in BGs. I know what you mean, I play a rogue, too. But let´s be serious. A rogue can still rape a WL without cheap shot.

2.) So you think it´s ballanced, if the rogue can simply rape the WL? The rogue has at least the chance to avoid the WL if the WL uses the dog. But the WL can´t avoid the rogue and if the rogue can play his class, he rapes the WL before he can do anything. Is that ballanced?

3.) Try to see it that way. Most classes can dispell our dots instantly and without losing mana. Why shouldn´t we be able to decide what the dog disspell at first? It has a 6 sec cooldown on it. But after 6 seconds I don´t need to try to disspell Hammer again. After 6 sec. I´m dead.
It´s not like "uhh now I´m imba with this fine addon" it just would keep us from beeing raped while we can´t defend.

[Nest]

Warlocks are imho the weakest class in PvP but we still get one nerf after the other.

Stopped reading there.
Why? Because You are wrong.

[mapp]

@ xacez you just reinforced my point that dk pets are the best pets in the game... and i wasn't whining just pointing out so other people can whine about it... i could honestly care less

huddle... prevents the ghoul from doing anything until it gets heals although it can be interrupted by gouge/stuns sooo yeah
didn't know about gnaw
didn't say anything about sac? :P
the point about the summoning is that hunters/locks have to cast summon/revive pet, for hunters the pet doesn't even come back with full health

[gherkin]

1.) I´m actually not talking about arena. I´m talking about 1on1 or 1on1 situations in BGs. I know what you mean, I play a rogue, too. But let´s be serious. A rogue can still rape a WL without cheap shot.

2.) So you think it´s ballanced, if the rogue can simply rape the WL? The rogue has at least the chance to avoid the WL if the WL uses the dog. But the WL can´t avoid the rogue and if the rogue can play his class, he rapes the WL before he can do anything. Is that ballanced?

3.) Try to see it that way. Most classes can dispell our dots instantly and without losing mana. Why shouldn´t we be able to decide what the dog disspell at first? It has a 6 sec cooldown on it. But after 6 seconds I don´t need to try to disspell Hammer again. After 6 sec. I´m dead.
It´s not like "uhh now I´m imba with this fine addon" it just would keep us from beeing raped while we can´t defend.

1) And I can still rape a Warrior/Shaman/Shadow Priest/Non-PVP Spec anything 1v1 in a bg. What's your point?

2) Yes. It's balanced because thats how they play in PVE conditions. If you break this for the warlock, Rogues are impossible to level. I have one at 71. It's BORING ALREADY, why make it worse? Here's a suggestion. If it's truly 1v1 then why aren't you using Trinket, Death Coil, Lay a teleport, RUN LIKE A MOTHER WHILE DOTING, teleport when he catches you, shadow flame snare/exhaustion snare, pop a voidwalker, shield, etc etc etc. 1v1 means all cooldowns are up for grabs.

3) The point isn't that the addon is useful, its that people without the addon are at a disadvantage. Then they have to balance warlocks around having this addon and thus the addon is mandatory, when the entire point of an addon is that its not mandatory. The same shit went down with Decursive back in the day.

[Xacez]

@ xacez you just reinforced my point that dk pets are the best pets in the game... and i wasn't whining just pointing out so other people can whine about it... i could honestly care less

huddle... prevents the ghoul from doing anything until it gets heals although it can be interrupted by gouge/stuns sooo yeah
didn't know about gnaw
didn't say anything about sac? :P
the point about the summoning is that hunters/locks have to cast summon/revive pet, for hunters the pet doesn't even come back with full health

You missed the point

[mapp]

probably :\

[Honklock]

2) Yes. It's balanced because thats how they play in PVE conditions. If you break this for the warlock, Rogues are impossible to level. I have one at 71. It's BORING ALREADY, why make it worse? Here's a suggestion. If it's truly 1v1 then why aren't you using Trinket, Death Coil, Lay a teleport, RUN LIKE A MOTHER WHILE DOTING, teleport when he catches you, shadow flame snare/exhaustion snare, pop a voidwalker, shield, etc etc etc. 1v1 means all cooldowns are up for grabs.

Well after that I can´t belive you play a WL. You are prolly one of that noob rogues that lose against WLs. You don´t even have a point in it. What a stupid explanation.^^ Are you really saying that you can lvl your rogue better since we got the crappy fellhunter??? And when we get the old fellhunter back, that a rogue has a harder time to lvl up?

Maybe it´s my bad english but this sounds really retarded.^^

[gherkin]

It's probably the english, which I won't hold against you. I'll explain in point form:

Rogues require stuns to level.
Rogues get really good at these stun combos because if they don't, they have to stop and eat/bandage or die.
It just so happens that these stun combos work really well in PVP.
Since Warlocks have no "easy button" escape mechanic like mages or self healing/bubble like priests, they are the prime candidate to get raped by a rogue who has mastered the stuns.
This is not fair to the warlock.
However, you cannot revert paranoia or nerf stuns because:

1) Reverting Paranoia means all rogues stack +stealth level items again. If there aren't enough of them, they complain. If there's too much of them, every other class without stealth detection complains. This is a bad loop that repeats until someone steps in, which they did with the stealth changes in 3.0.8 or 3.1 or something.

2) Nerfing stuns means its impossible to level a rogue. Blizzard cares that people can play all 10 classes even if you don't. In order to tweak this, Rogues have to be buffed in other ways (Think +armor, +dodge from agility, and -bear form armor to keep druids in check). However, we're still only thinking about Rogues and Warlocks (and partly druids). Can a Warrior kill a Rogue with more dodge and armor? Can a Priest? How do various cooldowns factor into this buff? What about PVE surivability? We don't want Rogues tanking Illidan again.

[MiyaKome]

Well after that I can´t belive you play a WL. You are prolly one of that noob rogues that lose against WLs. You don´t even have a point in it. What a stupid explanation.^^ Are you really saying that you can lvl your rogue better since we got the crappy fellhunter??? And when we get the old fellhunter back, that a rogue has a harder time to lvl up?

Maybe it´s my bad english but this sounds really retarded.^^

I think what he's saying is that leveling a rogue is boring.

As for strategy on how to beat them, that's pretty much correct. It's really hard for a lock to beat a rogue since that's our counterclass. If you mess up once you're dead. However, if you blow all of your cooldowns and utilize everything at your disposal, it's definitely possible to win.

[Kelpie]

QQ thread is QQ

[Honklock]

1.) Did you know that you can change gear and that there is gear for PvE and for PvP? So I don´t understand what it has to do with lvling a rogue? If you lvl your rogue you don´t need + stealth. If you go in a BG or Arena you can decide if you want to stack up +stealth and lose AP or Crit just to kill a WL before he sees you or you can stack up AP and Crit to have a better chance against all other classes. So I still don´t get what the big deal is.
Please compare this to a WL. The WL has to decide which pet he uses long before the fight and can´t get another pet out before he dies. (Ok a demo WL can, but there is no need for him to do so, cause the felguard is the best pet he can use anyway...). And the WL has also to set his teleport long before the fight...
Why do you think rogues should have a license to free kill every class in the game?
Why should WLs decide before the fight how they are better off with, but rogues should be perpared to face any enemy?

Besides that, you can still easily kill a WL if the dog gets you out of stealth while the WL is saped. What do you think Clos is for?
And it is not like that paranoia makes the wl see the rogue in every situation. Its mostly only if the rogue has put no points in stealth and is one of that movent legastenics that needs to sap the wl before they cheap shot the wl.
Besides that there are many items with + stealth that still give a good AP and Crit boost, like the trinkets juwel crafters can make.

2.) Nobody is talking about nerfing stuns. I´m just talking about to give us chance to defend against stun abuse like -> sap -> cheap shot -> kidneyshot and if the wl is not allready dead -> CloS or my likest sap -> cheap shot -> kidneyshot -> bloodelf silence -> Clos -> vanish -> cheap shot -> kidney shot.
Come on this is rediculous. If you think that the rogue can also kick silence you, it´s even worse.

[gherkin]

Again, this seems to be all about 1v1 bg's, which are hugely biased in the rogues favor. Run with the pack, you are stronger in numbers. If you are off by yourself you are going to die. I kill stragglers all the time, as a warlock, rogues included. To think that someone else won't do the same to you is stupidity.

Teleport can be set up on the fly, you just need to practice.
If you go into PVP without Fel Domination you're asking to have your ass kicked. 3.2 cooldown is lower so you shouldn't have any problems in BG's more than a Rogue would who just blew all his cooldowns killing that other warlock :P

1) Leveling a rogue has everything to do with stuns, nothing to do about stealth levels. I think you're getting "Leveling" confused with "Stealth Levels". Let me explain: Stealth Levels work kind of Hit Rating. An 80 rogue with no talents/gear is easy to detect, just like a mob at level 80 is easy to hit. If you add +Stealth to cloak, the rogue is now effectively lvl 81. Harder to see. Add talents and more gear, he could easily hit lvl 87 which means you have a 50% chance to see him if he's standing right on top of you, and all but impossible to see 5 yards away.

Rogues were forced to use these items/enchants/talents in order to succeed in arena. This meant teams without a human or a warlock were completely screwed because the rogue was undetectable. Paranoia was removed, and stealth levels were removed, and the Human racial was changed to fix this.

2) Well you're either asking for "nerf stuns" or "give warlocks an escape mechanic" because I've very thoroughly explained why we don't get paranoia back.


I'm going to end this post with some common sense: playing a warlock is hard. Playing a rogue is not. Easier class trumps harder class. Learn your class and figure out how to adapt, or reroll an easier one. Something tells me you're emotionally involved, so I suggest figuring it out.

[mapp]

1.) Did you know that you can change gear and that there is gear for PvE and for PvP? So I don´t understand what it has to do with lvling a rogue? If you lvl your rogue you don´t need + stealth. If you go in a BG or Arena you can decide if you want to stack up +stealth and lose AP or Crit just to kill a WL before he sees you or you can stack up AP and Crit to have a better chance against all other classes. So I still don´t get what the big deal is.
Please compare this to a WL. The WL has to decide which pet he uses long before the fight and can´t get another pet out before he dies. (Ok a demo WL can, but there is no need for him to do so, cause the felguard is the best pet he can use anyway...). And the WL has also to set his teleport long before the fight...
Why do you think rogues should have a license to free kill every class in the game?
Why should WLs decide before the fight how they are better off with, but rogues should be perpared to face any enemy?

Besides that, you can still easily kill a WL if the dog gets you out of stealth while the WL is saped. What do you think Clos is for?
And it is not like that paranoia makes the wl see the rogue in every situation. Its mostly only if the rogue has put no points in stealth and is one of that movent legastenics that needs to sap the wl before they cheap shot the wl.
Besides that there are many items with + stealth that still give a good AP and Crit boost, like the trinkets juwel crafters can make.

2.) Nobody is talking about nerfing stuns. I´m just talking about to give us chance to defend against stun abuse like -> sap -> cheap shot -> kidneyshot and if the wl is not allready dead -> CloS or my likest sap -> cheap shot -> kidneyshot -> bloodelf silence -> Clos -> vanish -> cheap shot -> kidney shot.
Come on this is rediculous. If you think that the rogue can also kick silence you, it´s even worse.

this was a great laugh lol thanks needed it okay so first off...

Why do you think rogues should have a license to free kill every class in the game?

druid,dk,pally... we can't even hurt good players who play these classes...

What do you think Clos is for?

if he uses cloak then you just survive until its up and then deathcoil him? he can't vanish with 12903871 dots on him so GG

my likest sap -> cheap shot -> kidneyshot -> bloodelf silence -> Clos -> vanish -> cheap shot -> kidney shot.

okay so first off i want to point out that the dr on cheap shot and kidneyshot are both 20 seconds (kidney with a 20 second cd) so basically he saps you okay then opens with cheap shot into kidney shot thats 10 seconds... if he has you stunned idk why he would cloak vanish because he was no dots on himself but then the cheapshot that follows the kidney only lasts 2 seconds and then you have 8 seconds free of any stuns and since apparently the rogue doesn't have cloak you can deathcoil him and its GG

Now this is assuming you have pvp gear and 20k+ health

[MiyaKome]

As I said before, the rogue is the warlock's counterclass. Every class has (or is supposed to have) one, so there will always be a certain class that's harder to kill than another.

Rogues in general are not easy to play, but against certain classes, they have huge advantages. See casters.

Again, it is not impossible to defeat a rogue. Just lose your defeatist attitude, keep practicing on them, and come up with a strategy that works for you.



And as a side note, you were complaining about setting up your teleport, saying you had to know who you were facing beforehand in order to cast it. To be honest, if you know that you'll be in a certain area for a certain period of time, you should always set up your teleport. It's just one more ace up your sleeve.

Also, in terms of good well-rounded PVP pets, I find the Succubus to be quite viable. Seduce works on everyone, making it a pet you can rely on regardless of your opponent.

[gherkin]

Every class has (or is supposed to have) one, so there will always be a certain class that's harder to kill than another.

They have publicly indicated that this is not a good design practice and one they do not support. Yes, there are classes that are easier to kill than others, but the idea of a Counter Class is a bad idea for this type of a game.