25man harder than 10man??

[Evolixe]

The other way to look at it is this, doing 10man bosses with a 25man rosta is going to be far easier than doing 10man bosses with a 10man rosta.

This is true. But fights are still the same. The only single one buff that can be saved from that is Alakir H25.

[traen]

I say 10-man is harder. Compared to 25-man, its not such a big loss if in your raid, 5 dies on 25-man, compared to 2 dying in 10-man.

Sure. If you are doing normal modes.
In most cases if you are doing heroic content without overgear, killing bosses first time, it means that 1 dead player in 25man means that you have to wipe and start over. And chance that one of your players will fail is MUCH higher.
And as long as I remember it always was like this at top level of raiding.

Normal mode 10ppl content is faceroll, nothing to talk about.
10man heroic content is as hard as 25man content, with few bosses easier in 10man and few bosses easier in 25man.

In means of organization its MUCH harder to manage good 25 man guild and its much harder to find 30-35 good players for such guild.
In the same time its much harder to build proper setup for different 10man bosses and its harder to deal with absence of important players in 10man guild.

IMO, current situation is pretty much balanced.

[Fleuria]

Thats because you are so fucking good mate <3

Why thx person I don't know at all you made my day

[Varyk]

It depends on the fight. Take Sinestra for example is waaaaaaay harder on 10 man, while fights like Heroic Halfus and Magmaw are easier on 25 man. (to name a few). Fights like Heroic Ala'kir and Ascendant Council are much harder on 25.

A few basic things to consider tho. It's much more difficult to control 25 people than it is 10. It's much easier to find 10 good players than it is 25. If one player goes down in a 10m that's 10% of your raid and is most likely a wipe. This is where the easier to find 10 good people comes in as the chances of mistakes are likely to lessen with more reliable players (obvious)

[Evolixe]

It depends on the fight. Take Sinestra for example is waaaaaaay harder on 10 man, while fights like Heroic Halfus and Magmaw are easier on 25 man. (to name a few). Fights like Heroic Ala'kir and Ascendant Council are much harder on 25.

A few basic things to consider tho. It's much more difficult to control 25 people than it is 10. It's much easier to find 10 good players than it is 25. If one player goes down in a 10m that's 10% of your raid and is most likely a wipe. This is where the easier to find 10 good people comes in as the chances of mistakes are likely to lessen with more reliable players (obvious)

Have you been at sinestra on 10man?

No? Well i have.

Its the same &$@#ing thing.

I can't believe people are still debating this. All of the HC modes have the same abilities and stuff, its fine as it is now. Balanced.

[Holofernes]

Although in 10 man most mechanics are a complete joke compared to 25 man, since you have alot of room to spread out on all the "spread"-mechanics become trivial, and pretty much everything is easier to handle, so if you die in a 10 man you are just bad. In 25 man there are alot more chaos due to less space for example on AC heroic, in 25 man you get 3 targets with lightning beacon, thats is 3 people that need to watch out for 24 other people. In 10 man you have 1 guy that needs to look out for 1 guy.

In 10 man nefarian, you only get 1 cinder, I mean that is a complete joke. It was so fun in 25 man when you got 3 cinders ont he same platform and both healers got it. Its about adapting.

In a 25 man there is just so much more that can go wrong and the risk of dieng is alot bigger, + loosing 1 player in 25 man during progress is most often a wipe. If we lost 1 player, we would not have made the enrage on e.g. Maloriak, Chimaeron, V&T etc on our first kills. All our first kills on those was made with 25 players alive and right on the enrage.

Also, I am rather sure we could 8 man pretty much most heroic modes, loosing 2 players in 10 man is not that bad. I believe Cho'Gall, Sinestra and maybe Conclave would be difficult to 8 man, but the rest should be completely 8 mannable.

well have u ever been the only healer on your platform and getting 3 cinders in a row? now tell me how u can handle this no one else can heal. u have to move and watch urself not dying, while hoping the 2 /3 other people will survive, and hoping u manage to up them before the next cinder comes in... in 25 mans u would have 7-8 people an the platform, at least two healer, at least 2 guys with strong defensive cds, at least 2 guys who can offheal for a short period, a lifegripping priest on every platform and so on....

stop telling storys about things u dont know

[Deleted]

10m/25m are the same difficulty when based on tactics and performance. Saying 25m is harder because you need 25 non retarded people isnt an argument. its just retarded to take retarded people.
When you are looking at specific fights the things change.

25M Chim HC is easier to KILL then 10M because you have a lot more raid cooldowns for feuds etc.
25M Council HC is harder to KILL then 10M because you have more room for people to stand.
25M Al'Akir HC is harder to KILL then 10M because you hardly have any place to put people.
25M V&T HC "was" a lot easier then 10M at the start of Cata then 10M (thanks to raid setup).

And so on. The fights are all the same but some were completly setup based for 10m and other were completly overtuned in terms of movement etc or raid cooldowns.

[Deleted]

well have u ever been the only healer on your platform and getting 3 cinders in a row? now tell me how u can handle this no one else can heal. u have to move and watch urself not dying, while hoping the 2 /3 other people will survive, and hoping u manage to up them before the next cinder comes in... in 25 mans u would have 7-8 people an the platform, at least two healer, at least 2 guys with strong defensive cds, at least 2 guys who can offheal for a short period, a lifegripping priest on every platform and so on....

stop telling storys about things u dont know

As far as my healers tell me, on nefarian the cinders are barely noticeble, but that is because we rotate cds on them and people with cinders use trinkets, and actually attempt to negate the damgae instead of soaking it, it is still only 1 cinder. 1 healer healing 1 cinder or 2 healers healing 3 cinders.

Adapt, don't blame your own lack of skill on hard fights. If you wipe because you get 3 cinders on your platform in a row, you need to step up your game.
Hopefully your raid is using the Mirror of Broken Images trinket, pretty much making the entire cinders trivial.

Also do not know if you know this, but a few pointers to stay alive.
1. When you get cinders, do not jump of the platform straight away, wait for the debuff to go down to 2 seconds, then jump off, you will barely get any magma stacks.
2. Do not jump in the lava, every time you jump you gain an additional tick and stack.

Just learn to play the fights properly.


And, have you ever played 25 man, really?

[Deleted]

As far as my healers tell me, on nefarian the cinders are barely noticeble, but that is because we rotate cds on them and people with cinders use trinkets, and actually attempt to negate the damgae instead of soaking it, it is still only 1 cinder. 1 healer healing 1 cinder or 2 healers healing 3 cinders.

Have you ever played 25 man, really?

You might want to read my post above yours. 10m=25m some fights are a bit more difficult but its not 10m>25m or 25m>10m

[Deleted]

You might want to read my post above yours. 10m=25m some fights are a bit more difficult but its not 10m>25m or 25m>10m

I agree completely, most fights are about equal.
However, overall 25 man fights are harder due to how the mechanics interact with having more players and you can often get horrible RNG.

I think it is so funny how everyone seem to believe loosing 3 players in 25 man is okay, it is not. During progress, even loosing ONE player is often a wipe, just the same as in 10 man, however in 25 man more people can screw up so its a bigger chance to get killed. Ofc, during farm you can afford deaths, but this count for 10 man aswell.

The part where I asked him if he ever played 25 man was because I meant that he sounded like "omfg 10 is haaaaaard", while in reality, they are both just as easy.

[Mammoth]

10 man dwells on each persons skills and at some point everyone is pushed to do something special.

25 man is more about guild organisation and has less scope for tactical planning. If you're not an officer you're going to be mainly doing the standard roles and not be part of planning.

[Pokty]

at the moment you can carry a large number of people in 25 heroics - i.e. they are easy to vastly over gear. you don't really have that luxury on the most difficult 10 man heroic bosses. that said, having done all fights in both 10 and 25 I think they are roughly equal in terms of execution, which isn't all that surprising considering that they are almost identical. If a group of 10 people can clear the 10 heroics, that same group people times 2.5 could clear the 25 heroics - the challenge lies in assembling this team.

[Deleted]

blizzard achnolages that while 10 and 25 are the same difficulty,
the actualy dificulty lies in gathering 25 people of enough skill. geting 10 with enough skill is eaier than 25.
and as such the Rewards for 25 man radiing is 3~X the loot and a bit more valor.
they are the same difficulty,
the players you gather to do it may now be of the same skill levels.

[Demonidze]

actualy some bosses easier on 10 man, some other on 25. al'akir, council, chogall ... all known to be easier on 10 man.

[Teve]

I say 10 man is easier too. It's easier to have 10 solid players than 25 solid players...

Pretty much this... On my realm, all the guilds that were known to be horrendous in WotLK now do 10-mans and successfully compete with established 25-man guilds on heroic progression. It's not just one guild, more like a handful.

Not talking about top progress guilds obviously, 8-11/13 more like it. Top progress guilds won't have to worry about their players being "solid" and difficulty evens out between 10 and 25.

[Deleted]

You're forgetting they nerfed 10man not long ago, before that 10man was generally overtuned compared to 25man.

People stating it's harder to get 25 people to raid instead of 10 people are right, but then again you've got alot more people that are allowed to fuck up or be shit compared to 10 people, so in the end it doesn't matter with how many people you raid.

Current state dictates that 10man is easier, people getting 13/13 before the nerfs on 10man did the hardest content this game had to offer. (This is not my opinion but a fact, so don't bother not agreeing as nobody gives a damn.)

[Pokty]

I know that this is a pointless discussion but I can't help myself.

council, chogall ... all known to be easier on 10 man.

Completely disagree. Council is an almost identical fight. You could argue that phase 1 is easier for 10 people due to less risk of spreading the debuffs, but that part of the fight is a none issue anyway. Furthermore, in phase 2 you have less tools to help you to avoid the frost orbs; you don't typically have multiple life grips and stuff. It's also more difficult to reliably interrupt Arion's Dispersion -> 150k nuke on 10 man.

The fight was once extremely difficult due to the dps requirements in phase 3, but that problem existed in 10 man as well, except that most people weren't really attempting the fight undergeared as far as I know.

Being mainly a gear check I don't see what makes Cho'gall so much easier on 10 heroic. It's a fight that's easy on both difficulties once properly geared up, but even one under geared player can cause issues on 10 man while you can carry several people on 25 if you need to. I actually hit the hard enrage on 25 man due to low dps (alts etc) without the fight feeling particularly difficult in phase 1.

[Deleted]

In 25 man you can vary a lot more. You can have 1 person kiting that, another helping him out and a backup. In 10 man, loosing that many players would cause you to not be able to kill whatever you're killing. But at the same time, you need to have control of a lot more players and every single player will have less impact which makes it a lot harder to carry someone poorly geared.

[Deleted]

You're forgetting they nerfed 10man not long ago, before that 10man was generally overtuned compared to 25man.

People stating it's harder to get 25 people to raid instead of 10 people are right, but then again you've got alot more people that are allowed to fuck up or be shit compared to 10 people, so in the end it doesn't matter with how many people you raid.

Current state dictates that 10man is easier, people getting 13/13 before the nerfs on 10man did the hardest content this game had to offer. (This is not my opinion but a fact, so don't bother not agreeing as nobody gives a damn.)

See this is the problem.


Cata Released:

25 man and 10 man is both badly overtuned, alot of fights impossible.
Since more guilds are raiding Hardcore progress in 25 man and 10 man, and devs following 25 man guilds more closely as they are more established, the 25 man bosses get "fixed" faster.
Because there are less 10 man guilds Blizzard does not get data as fast, so it takes them longer time to find enough data to justify a nerf. So later 10 mans get nerfed aswell.
10 man just got nerfed later because they were not the "focus" off blizzard since the extreme hardcore raiding is done in 25 man.

[Stompalomp]

It really just depends on the encounter.

Al'akir, Atramedes, Ascendant Council are probably eaier on 10.
Omnitron, Maloriak, Nef, are possibly easier in 25.

Its Pretty much 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.