Retribution DPS 4.3 PvE

[BDF]

Not to mention big dps swings based on #of TV crits when our cooldowns are up and the stars are aligned.

[Vanderhuge]

I mentioned this back during one of the Blizzcon threads, but the main point to take from Ghostcrawler is that he mentioned that filler abilities would begin to generate Holy Power. However, if we were to assume that we'd be getting a new single target ability (and we should with the loss of Holy Wrath), then we'd be generating Holy Power at a very stable rate. So, here's a crazy list of assumptions based on this:

• The damage of TV is going to be reduced with how often the ability is used.
• Zealotry is replaced with Holy Avenger. There's simply no way to balance around having both available.
• With Holy Power becoming far easier to obtain, another finisher is introduced to space out TV usage. I'm thinking along the lines of an ability called Sanctity, which lowers the cooldown of CS while it is active.
• If we don't see something along the lines of Sanctity, Inquisition no longer lasts 12 seconds per charge. It would certainly be lowered.

All things considered, we'll be okay in 4.3 with J giving us HP, and play a lot smoother in 5.0. Honestly, none of us can validate an opinion until we get our hands on the beta sometime next year, something I'm very much looking forward to now.

[Deleted]

The only way a paladin ret has to generate hp in reliable manner is to use "hit rating based only abilities" for generating hp:
so judgements/exo/else shit... as long as u need to rely on melee/expertise needed abilities it may work on pve > not pvp...

or simply raise hp to 12/6 self refillin based on time/haste such as runes for dks... lowering the cost of TV to 2hps max for example...

[Fredzilla]

The only way a paladin ret has to generate hp in reliable manner is to use "hit rating based only abilities" for generating hp:
so judgements/exo/else shit... as long as u need to rely on melee/expertise needed abilities it may work on pve > not pvp...

or simply raise hp to 12/6 self refillin based on time/haste such as runes for dks... lowering the cost of TV to 2hps max for example...

I'm really confused by this, since we only have the 1 ability that generates HP right now, and with 2pc t13 we'll have one more. I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to hit and expertise and whatnot, and as it is now, increasing the cap for holy power with the current system will do absolutely nothing to solve it, since we spend all our HP as soon as we get it now. There'd be no point in getting more HP than what you need for TV or Inq.

[Deleted]

I'm really confused by this, since we only have the 1 ability that generates HP right now, and with 2pc t13 we'll have one more. I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to hit and expertise and whatnot, and as it is now, increasing the cap for holy power with the current system will do absolutely nothing to solve it, since we spend all our HP as soon as we get it now. There'd be no point in getting more HP than what you need for TV or Inq.

y,
1) u have only a MELEE based on expertise table ability to generate hp (runestrike isn't based on an expertise table for example)...
2) u cannot use pve gears (besides trinkets and 1 wp) in pvp... so 2 pc t13 aren't a real option... (well it's not like u can't... it's just u won't survive any shatter on op directly once spotted as pve geared)...
3) increasing cap to 6-12 and allowing a PASSIVE hp generation (once in combat) based on a fixed amount of time reductable by HASTE is a solution... so at least haste will be worth something...
4) u do not use inquisition and u cannot keep it up unless have a 100% uptime on a target or u get 2consecutive dp procs (15% chance each is a bit low to hope in this)... (pvp)... u will barely keep 5stacks of censure on any1... u do realize u need to hit 3 times (13.5s) any1 before startin doin anything offensive? And that paladin is the only spec starting a fight without resources? Combo points aren't exactly resources...

Play some other melee (any1) and probably u'll get what I mean...

[Neldarie]

y,
1) u have only a MELEE based on expertise table ability to generate hp (runestrike isn't based on an expertise table for example)...
2) u cannot use pve gears (besides trinkets and 1 wp) in pvp... so 2 pc t13 aren't a real option... (well it's not like u can't... it's just u won't survive any shatter on op directly once spotted as pve geared)...
3) increasing cap to 6-12 and allowing a PASSIVE hp generation (once in combat) based on a fixed amount of time reductable by HASTE is a solution... so at least haste will be worth something...
4) u do not use inquisition and u cannot keep it up unless have a 100% uptime on a target or u get 2consecutive dp procs (15% chance each is a bit low to hope in this)... (pvp)... u will barely keep 5stacks of censure on any1... u do realize u need to hit 3 times (13.5s) any1 before startin doin anything offensive? And that paladin is the only spec starting a fight without resources? Combo points aren't exactly resources...

Play some other melee (any1) and probably u'll get what I mean...

Some rather constructive and solid points there but its abit too PvP biased considering thread is called "Thread: Retribution DPS 4.3 PvE".

[Deleted]

eh wrong post

[Fredzilla]

y,
1) u have only a MELEE based on expertise table ability to generate hp (runestrike isn't based on an expertise table for example)...
2) u cannot use pve gears (besides trinkets and 1 wp) in pvp... so 2 pc t13 aren't a real option... (well it's not like u can't... it's just u won't survive any shatter on op directly once spotted as pve geared)...
3) increasing cap to 6-12 and allowing a PASSIVE hp generation (once in combat) based on a fixed amount of time reductable by HASTE is a solution... so at least haste will be worth something...
4) u do not use inquisition and u cannot keep it up unless have a 100% uptime on a target or u get 2consecutive dp procs (15% chance each is a bit low to hope in this)... (pvp)... u will barely keep 5stacks of censure on any1... u do realize u need to hit 3 times (13.5s) any1 before startin doin anything offensive? And that paladin is the only spec starting a fight without resources? Combo points aren't exactly resources...

Play some other melee (any1) and probably u'll get what I mean...

As was said, this is a pve discussion, not pvp (one reason why I was a bit confused). Also, you worded your first post quite poorly; I imagine I'm not the only person to fail to understand what you were trying to say. Also, ret pvp used 2pc t10 in wotlk, why couldn't they do the same for 2pc t13?

[Vuagnon]

Possible Bandaid: Faster hp generation, TV damage tuned down, a new filler with a short cd/gcd (preferably a holy damage attack which cant be dodged, parried or blocked), a ranged builder/finisher or castable Exorcism during movement to increase uptime, and both divine purpose and zealotry reworked in order to reduce the influence of rng and cooldown burst.

[Deleted]

As was said, this is a pve discussion, not pvp (one reason why I was a bit confused). Also, you worded your first post quite poorly; I imagine I'm not the only person to fail to understand what you were trying to say. Also, ret pvp used 2pc t10 in wotlk, why couldn't they do the same for 2pc t13?

It is exactly the same thing for fights where u have to face the boss frontal (such as Argaloth) or u have to switch targets quick... other melee mostly loose dmg due to missing with 1 attack (90% melee abilities if u get parried > resources are given back)...
Leaving hp generation to an expertise based attack is something that is gonna working under the situation : u are always after the boss, u do not need to move from there... which is the "ideal condition in pve"...
Hps are resources not combo points.. it's not the same thing.. pvp or pve... there's no reason to leave the resources generation to a melee attack (even if at 3s)...
Unless u get a dp proc inbetween u need 13.5s x2 to start doin dmg... it's 27s... inquisition and 1st Tv... > this is pure non sense... u can get 1dp proc, u can get more, u can get none... difference is huge... especially if u have to move each 20secs about... u'll just end up tryin to keep 5stacks and inquisition up...
The problem isn't 1 filler missing... that's just a gap in the rotatoin (making it less enjoyable maybe)... but the way the hp are built simply doesn't work...

Aow is another nonsense = ur autoattacks have a chance to allow u to use 1 ranged attack...
it should be the opposite : who needs a ranged attack once in melee (at least in wotlk it was fol/exo)? it would be better to add a 50% proc on judgements... or having judgements placing a stacking debuff allowing on 2stacks to shot 1 instant exorcism on the target.... or better making exo instant on 6-9s cd... placing a 2 stacks debuff "exorcized"... exo on a 2stacks target> +100% dmg removing stacks...
better : ur judgements on a target 10-15yards away will grant ur cs the ability to generate 2hps instead of 1 (debuff lasting 5secs called :"big cs")... a small ramp up burst in opening...

A bar with 3 points (0 -1 - 2- 3) is wrong as well... since u cannot increase or balance it that much considering u can add a 100%reg 150%reg 200%reg without other values... at least 6 would be a better option... adding a good reason "to reach 6" instead of burning them along the way... or starting directly with... not to mention that values: 1 and 2 are completely useless...

[Deleted]

This is still going on ? From what I understand Blizzard dosent plan on redoing anything major on palas untill the madatory xpack rehash on the class/spec.

[Fredzilla]

This is still going on ? From what I understand Blizzard dosent plan on redoing anything major on palas untill the madatory xpack rehash on the class/spec.

That doesn't mean we can't continue to discuss things about the spec.

[Deleted]

True true! But it always gets up hopes up when ppl give such good suggestions wich will never see the light of day

[Deleted]

they are making holy wrath a holy nuke -> probably consumes holy power for aoe damg so we finaly get an aoe finisher meaning we have a viable alternative to tv and can finaly compete with aoe dps.

[Fredzilla]

they are making holy wrath a holy nuke -> probably consumes holy power for aoe damg so we finaly get an aoe finisher meaning we have a viable alternative to tv and can finaly compete with aoe dps.

I'm fairly certain that they're making it a holy-only spell (spec, not damage), so we won't use it at all as ret or prot, which I'm fine with. I die a little inside every time I have to press that stupid button while I'm dps'ing.

[Sawd Panda]

im not sure how ppl play retri pally in FL as im always in the top3 dps (10man mainly caster group) as they want my 3% dmg increase.
we run normals 7/7 just to get ppl geared up for 4.3 on a raggy fight im around 20-24k depending on my awesome luck. @_@

[Fredzilla]

How you rank in your personal raids isn't a good indicator of how the spec fares overall. As it is, based on the top parses from the top guilds and whatnot, we're pretty much down near the bottom with enhance, overall. That doesn't mean you can't have good fights when you get really lucky, but chances are you won't be anything special relative to comparably geared and skilled players of other classes/specs.

We're supposed to be better for dps in 4.3, but none of our problems will be fixed, or attempted to be fixed, until MoP.

[Deleted]

Some rather constructive and solid points there but its abit too PvP biased considering thread is called "Thread: Retribution DPS 4.3 PvE".

They are balancing PVE/PVP at the same time.....so its quite valid.

[Fredzilla]

They are balancing PVE/PVP at the same time.....so its quite valid.

If you read his actual points, they are solely focused on pvp, not pve at all. They might (try to) balance the two at the same time, but none of his points have anything to do with the pve aspect of the spec (in fact they completely exclude any effects his changes might have on pve). So, no, it isn't valid. This is not a pvp-only discussion, as the title says. None of his points further the discussion of the thread.

As it is, I still don't think the suggestion about increasing the holy power cap will solve anything. You still spend it as soon as you get 3. That's the problem with the new divine purpose they showed for MoP at blizzcon: it gives you move speed for having HP, but no one in their right mind is going to purposely sit on 3 HP just to move faster.

[Reith]

Item - Paladin T13 Retribution 4P Bonus (Zealotry) now increases damage by 18%, up from 12%.

I'll take it. It's at least a 3% DPS increase just looking at the uptime alone, not including the effects of cooldowns with it.