Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

[Gurbz]

Except guess what? THEY AREN'T WRONG! *Gasp!* My god! People can have different opinions, or find different things fun then you! And when some self-important person, such as yourself or Ghostcrawler, has the gall to say "You're wrong!" to some ones OPINION, then that's crossing a line. With you it's just some pissant on a forum beating your gums, but with Ghostcrawler it's PR for Blizzard, and even JOKING, it looks and comes off badly. There is no way for it to NOT come off as poorly done. Simply put, YOU DO NOT DO THAT. It has nothing to do with political correctness or politeness, and EVERYTHING to do with BUISNESS SENSE. When your boat is bringing on water, even if the flow isn't to bad, you do NOT poke the hole to make it bigger.

Just in case you didn't get that, if you already have customers leaving by the truckload and a LARGE NUMBER of your remaining customers complain about a proposed feature, YOU DO NOT TELL THEM THAT THEY ARE WRONG IN DISLIKING IT. Even jokingly. I am sorry that some of you fanboys think they need to 'shut up the whiners', but that is a BAD attitude to have in a buisness enviroment. Should he have addressed the issue? Absolutely, but NOT like this. That ENTIRE POST was just a long list of "You're wrong, we're right, and here is our flimsy and hole filled reasoning."

Except that he is not telling people their opinion is wrong. He is telling them that their stated reason for forming that opinion is wrong. He is further explaining why it is wrong. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make him an asshole. He used reasoning and logic, and explained the design team's decisions clearly. The response from you and others like you boils down to "Well you suck!"

And if some of the language was a little bit harsh, well to that I say they need to go farther. Handling this community with gloves for 7 years has led to a bunch of people thinking that $15 a month entitles them to hurl shit at the people providing the product. Quite frankly a lot of people need to have some sense slapped into them so that they realize that the developers who have been paid to do this job every day for years might know a little better what is good for their product that some whiny idiot on a forum.

They have made a lot of changes I have not liked. If they ever make a change I dislike enough, I will stop giving them my $15. Which is the only choice you really have.

[Glub]

You just talked about 1 tier out of 6 there. So 1 in 6 is not bad ? 1 meainingful choise... 5 pointless ones. Thats not great. Thats crap design.

Lets look at Paladins shall we

1 tier is about speeding up. 3 diffrent ways of speeding up. Matter much ? not really since its all just about speeding so why not give the class 1 speeding up ability.

2. 1 CC ablity. Paladins loose CC abilitie they have had from Vanilla. They get a chooise to pick it. Thats called nerf

3. Defenive ability. Tanking abilites have been thown across the tree and you pick 1 of 3. Yes - Thats how childish that tier is. Tanking abilites that all roles are forced to make a "meaningfull" choise.

This is bad. There is no way around it.

Tier 1 is a tough one.

• 60% movement speed + utility (gee I can see many situations where it would be usefull) vs
• 45% movement speed on judgement (a talent Retr can pick today) vs
• 10% constant movement speed + 10% for each Holly power point (similar to what Retr has today, but the HoPo part is new).

All three of then are good to the point I'd love to have then all. But guess what, now Holly and Prot can also have that speed boost too that was once only Retr's.

Tier 2 is even harder:

• 50% reduction on our stun cooldown vs
• A 1 minute CC
• vs a 50% movement reduction on judgement.

You say we lose an ability, I say we gain: Repentance (the 1 minute CC) is an optional talent on the Ret tree. Now Holly and Prot can have it too if so they want. And it is a completely different animal from current Repentance. For one, it now has a cast time (it's instant, currently), but for another, it has no cooldown, so you can reapply it if your target wakes up prematurely. I love it.

I am also staring at the interaction between these two tiers wrt Judgment. So, I can has a speed boost on Judgement while my target gets a massive speed reduction? Talk about running away from a tight spot. Are we mages, now? =))))

Tier 3 allows every pally to pick up:

• Ardent Defender (an "oh-shit" talent currently deep down prot's talent tree) vs
• Sacred Shield (an automatic protective bubble that today is a retribution talent) vs
• an ability that gives you Holly Power whenever you take direct damage, are feared, stun, etc (an improved version of what Holly pallies find way down their talet tree).

Oh-my, oh-my, choices, choices... Ah, gimme that Holly Power one, please! No, wait, that is a Holly talent but I'm a Retr... hey, but now I *can* has that! =D

Tier 4 is all about healing. Either:

• Your basic healing spell (Flash of Light, since Holly Ligh is now a Holly only ability) becomes doubly-effective (and mana free) after you have judged twice, or
• You can use a big, instant heal (Word of Glory) without consuming HoPo or
• You can place a protective 10s shield on a friendly party at the super low cost of a single holly power (and whith no cooldown).

Hmm, I really like the Flash of Light one, but I can see how the World of Glory one would be more benign to my Dps. But hey, I'm a Retr, why am I even considering healing. We are a pure dps class aren't we?

Tier 5 is about preventing becoming stuck.

• Consecration now also prevents movement impairing on friendly parties standing on it, or
• I can have the mana cost and cooldown for my main movement helper abilities reduced or
• I can have a spell that will reset the cooldown of said abilities...

So, that mage casts her Ring of Frost we would all have to move away from, but I burn it down with Consecration, my own ring of fire? omfg, yes, yes... =))

And finally, comes tier 6, the only tier that I really don't love (not that I hate it, either). That's because in order to get that amazing talent that allows me to go crazy on holy power consuming spells while Guardian is up (damn, I want this talent!) I will have to say goodbye to Divine Purpose, a talent that I really, really like today... Sigh... I'm a sad pally. Damn you Greg Street! You ruined my class! =)))

[Kazlehoff]

Because...paying makes you automatically right on every topic and opinion?

irrelevant.

right or wrong, you don't tell the customer they are wrong. you find flowery ways of saying it. saying flat out "no, you are wrong." is insulting.

[Gurbz]

irrelevant.

right or wrong, you don't tell the customer they are wrong. you find flowery ways of saying it. saying flat out "no, you are wrong." is insulting.

Sometimes being blunt is the only way to get through to people. Especially ones who are convinced they are right no matter how much evidence you provide to the contrary.

[Glub]

Blizzard: Please send us feedback, so we can tell you that you are wrong.

Uh, didn't they just did that?

[Hellaciouss]

Hello? Didn't some of the lead Devs used to play EQ religiously? How can you not remember AA? Grinding out a whole nother level for .05% higher chance to crit and maxing that AA to 10/10 (which gives a total of 0.50% higher crit chance when maxzed) which would take grinding out 10 levels? AA was one of the best systems ever.

[Rolly]

I was just permanently banned from the forums for saying I disliked where the talent trees are going and that I considered it had more to do with reducing development costs than it had to do with engaging game play. ROFLMAO.
Gotta love a company that asks for feedback then bans you for giving that feedback.
I was extremely polite when I did it. Didn't rant, didn't use caps, used proper punctuation etc.
ah well no biggie.


edit: added from the forums for clarity. also "I used to play WoW like you,but then I took an arrow to the knee"

[jayremy]

Sometimes being blunt is the only way to get through to people. Especially ones who are convinced they are right no matter how much evidence you provide to the contrary.

When a customer is in the wrong you CAN flat out say they are wrong whenever you want, its your business even in this case (if it wasn't) when a majority of people and all those with a coherent and function brain no that "this customer is a trash customer" dismissing them from everybody else's troubles is a positive PR enforcement because everybody witnessing it or ever hearing about it will praise such actions. I don't play the game any more, when Blizzard was silent early cata, not saying shit but giving us a crap filled game, I quit, not worth my time. Now Blizzard actually is putting interesting shit up and responses with decent promise, even with the features of next x-pac.

However Blizzard as always solves and admits to their problems, or simply is just late on anything nice, so likely I will not be coming back ever, I got SWTOR to fill my time in until I try GW2, if that fails I can look forward to what firefall is and Especially TSW; not to mention the next RPG to come out KoA: Reckoning and numerous other big titles of many genres.

Right now, have Skyrim... FUS RO DAH!

---------- Post added 2011-12-09 at 06:51 PM ----------

I gotta love those complaining about class/spec balance and abilities being OP, as if its a serious issue and their class is in major jeopardy. Seriously what evidence do you have of that, do you even know half of the shit that is being removed from the game or classes come MoP or flat out being revamped? Its obvious to any person with a brain that you can't say what is or what isn't until we seen a steady beta rolling for MoP, if you are honestly judging classes' balance by just what you see here you are severely misguided.

---------- Post added 2011-12-09 at 06:56 PM ----------

"Leveling is fairly fast and rewarding and you get to see all the content".Who the FUCK ever said that "seeing all the content" or "leveling faster" is what we all want in this game to make it feel rewarding. No one I know. No one on the forums. No one anywhere.

Well some may want to see all the content, but not expect to. This are two different things, for example, I myself would want to see all the content, but I don't think I will whether it be having the time or getting burnt on the game I don't care if I do. People that expect to see ALL of the game content and think they should are those types thinking their first job out of high school should be a million+ a year paying job, expectations are way overboard. You CAN see it all, but expecting that much is folly because nothing is certain.

[Anira1152]

I think it is definitely too soon to start speculating on how this is going to play out until we can get into game and try it for ourselves.

[Glub]

You just talked about 1 tier out of 6 there. So 1 in 6 is not bad ? 1 meainingful choise... 5 pointless ones. Thats not great. Thats crap design.

Lets look at Paladins shall we

1 tier is about speeding up. 3 diffrent ways of speeding up. Matter much ? not really since its all just about speeding so why not give the class 1 speeding up ability.

2. 1 CC ablity. Paladins loose CC abilitie they have had from Vanilla. They get a chooise to pick it. Thats called nerf

3. Defenive ability. Tanking abilites have been thown across the tree and you pick 1 of 3. Yes - Thats how childish that tier is. Tanking abilites that all roles are forced to make a "meaningfull" choise.

This is bad. There is no way around it.

Tier 1 is a tough one.

• 60% movement speed + utility (gee I can see many situations where it would be usefull) vs
• 45% movement speed on judgement (a talent Retr can pick today) vs
• 10% constant movement speed + 10% for each Holly power point (similar to what Retr has today, but the HoPo part is new).

All three of then are good to the point I'd love to have then all. But guess what, now Holly and Prot can also have that speed boost that was once Retr's only.

Tier 2 is even harder:

• 50% reduction on our stun cooldown vs
• A 1 minute CC
• vs a 50% movement reduction on judgement.

You say we lose an ability, I say we gain: Repentance (the 1 minute CC) is an optional talent on the Ret tree. Now Holly and Prot can have it too if so they want. And it is a completely different animal from current Repentance. For one, it now has a cast time (it's instant, currently), but for another, it has no cooldown, so you can reapply it if your target wakes up prematurely. I love it.

I am also staring at the interaction between these two tiers wrt Judgment. So, I can has a speed boost on Judgement while my target gets a massive speed reduction? Talk about running away from a tight spot. Are we mages, now? =))))

Tier 3 allows every pally to pick up:

• Blessed Life (you gain Holly Power whenever you take direct damage, are feared, stun, etc. It's an improved version of what Holly pallies find way down their talet tree) vs
• Sacred Shield (an automatic protective bubble that today is a retribution talent) vs
• Ardent Defender (an "oh-shit" talent currently deep down prot's talent tree)

So, it's not *tanking* abilities, as you said, it's talents that are currently spread out along the three tress. If you don't like the ones from the other trees, pick the one that your spec currently has. I, on the other hand, am here thinking oh-my, oh-my, choices, choices... Ah, gimme that Holly Power one, please! No, wait, that is a Holly talent and I'm a Retr... No, wait, now I *can* has that! =D

Tier 4 is all about healing. Either:

• Your basic healing spell (Flash of Light, since Holly Ligh is now a Holly only ability) becomes doubly-effective (and mana free) after you have judged twice, or
• You can use a big, instant heal (Word of Glory) without consuming HoPo or
• You can place a protective 10s shield on a friendly party at the super low cost of a single holly power (and whith no cooldown).

Hmm, I really like the Flash of Light one, but I can see how the World of Glory one would be more benign to my Dps. But hey, I'm a Retr, why am I even considering healing. We are a pure dps class aren't we?

Tier 5 is about preventing becoming stuck.

• Consecration now also prevents movement impairing effects on friendly parties standing on it, or
• I can have the mana cost and cooldown for some movement/helper abilities reduced or
• I can have a spell that will reset the cooldown of said abilities...

So, that mage casts her Ring of Frost we would all have to move away from, but I burn it down with Consecration, my own ring of fire? omfg, yes, yes <frantic laughter>... =))

And finally, comes tier 6, the only tier that I really don't love (not that I hate it, either). That's because in order to get that amazing talent that allows me to go crazy on holy power consuming spells while Guardian is up (gods, I.want.this.talent!) I will have to say goodbye to Divine Purpose, a talent that I really, really like today... Sigh... I'm a sad pally. Damn you Greg Street! You ruined my class! =)))

[Doktor Faustus]

If you truly want change, vote with your feet.

Mass unsubscibe, lay out your depends (time for a union, lol).

Otherwise, your rancor is in vain.

Stop feeding this bloated beast and.. just move on.

Yes, years of wasted time some may say, but I relish the good memories.

Stop making them feel they are masters amongst men, just leave...

[Iplaydrunk]

If you truly want change, vote with your feet.

Mass unsubscibe, lay out your depends (time for a union, lol).

Otherwise, your rancor is in vain.

Stop feeding this bloated beast and.. just move on.

Yes, years of wasted time some may say, but I relish the good memories.

Stop making them feel they are masters amongst men, just leave...

I agree... on everything but the depends part... I think you meant demands lol.

But yeah, there are plenty of other games. Vote with your wallet and take your friends with you. Try it for a while I think you'll find it's freeing :-)

[ringpriest]

But it does make for great internet! ;D To your point, I agree and I don't. I agree with your take on the forum crowd to some degree. You have little camps that pop up that can be categorized as either 'with blizzard' or 'not with blizzard', but I think that's the case for any discussion where more than two people are involved. They'll never be able to please the latter camp, but I don't think that's their goal. I think their goal is to make a great game the best way they can and any feedback, even if it is from the unruly rabble, will help.

So, It seems to me that Blizz knows how ... passionate ... some of their player-base is. But I think they know what I know and that's that these people, however Jaded and unruly they are acting are only acting that way because they -do- care. I think the perception from people that GC has a "confrontational tone" is all about perspective. I think he sounds honest and to the point. He doesn't use airy metaphors and amorphous terminology to placate his audience. He knows we're a group of walking meme impersonators and internet junkies. I wouldn't confuse "casual personality" with "confrontational", though, to another posters comment.

You're wrong, Next!

I'm not being confrontational, I'm just being honest and to the point.

[Cruor]

No, because pvp in wow is so poorly balanced it's not even worth playing anymore

Translation to this and all QQ's about pvp: "I'm not good enough to pvp so I don't like it" Is WoW pvp perfect? Hell no. Is any games pvp perfect? Hell no. However, it is still good and fun. I have been in top 10 US PvE guilds. I was there for 300~ M'uru and all the Naxx level 60 attempts etc. I can tell you, PvP is MUCH harder then pve. PvP is vs other humans who think, you gotta think fast and play well, a lot of people can't handle it.

As for the talent system, I think its a good change... all builds that work ARE cookie cutter. This one forces you to make really tough choices... some of them a bit too tough, needs some adjustment but the idea is solid. I play a Warrior, having to choose between say Avatar and Bladestorm is a rough one. For killing 1 healer, avatar, but Bladestom is amazing for killing grouped enemies and avoiding CC.... I think it will be very interesting.

[doven1212]

To the whole matter of "I now have more choices that matter"... NO WE DON'T!!!!!!!! looking at the priest talent tree as being a healing spec I DON'T CARE ABOUT FEAR!!!!!! I'm not even going to put my point there if i don't have to. Level 30 is just a situation based talent otherwise 80% pointless... Wish i could save my first two points to put two into the level 45 section. Level 60 wish i could save that pointless choice to put into level 75. I will say the experimentation area for level 90 will be fun and exciting to find what i prefer to play with. I have only really looked into the priest talent tree, though i have heard the say from other class players that they wish they could save choices for further down the tree. Thoughts of TalentsLevel 15: Choice between "root totem," "fear totem," or "caster fear." -O good a choice I wish to never care about AT ALL!!!! I don't PVP so fear is pointless and useless to me. If i have to spend time CCing adds mt tank will die, so I DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS TALENT!Level 30: my shield makes characters move faster, increases MY movement speed while levitated, Fade removes movement impairing effects and movement to ME is increased. -Think I'll keep the shield movement increase has more use in PVE.Level 45: Chance on spell cast to receive a free flash heal, New healing/Damage spell, and increase healing by 5% over 30 secs. -I wish i could have the first two in this level. Can i take the one i don't want to use in level 15 and use it hear!Level 60: self heal 30%, increase my own shield effect on me, gain shield when damaged over 30%. -I'll spend the mana to heal myself, really only on MYSELF worthless, and what am i doing if I'm getting hit for more than 30% my health... can I put this point back down into level 45.Level 75: heal/damage targets below 20%, increase casting speed and lower mana cost by 20%, casting flash heal lowers cost and cast speed by 20%. -I wish i could get all three, these are the priests heal saving abilities. Either increases size of the heal coming, puts more spells out with mana conservation, or just doing my job saves me future mana. ALL AMAZING wish i could have all three.Level 90: Vow of unity, Void shift, Vampiric Dominance. -Vow of unity will be what i choose most likely because I can use binding heal to counter the damage I will be taking. Void shift will be worth experimenting with on certain encounters. Vampiric Dominance easy raid healing yes please.I know a lot of people will see this as me just QQing, I'm just giving Honest feedback to the Employees on what PVE healing priests views are. A better level 15 choice would be a new Dispell ability that travels like prayer of mending does.

[Deleted]

God, did that Blizzard post seem arrogant as shit to anyone else? I feel like I am being talked down to as a child would.....

They did but, in Blizzard's defense, it does feel like they are addressing the (often rather childish) vocal minority. The arrogance seems to come across more in responses to comments such as: "I like being better than noobs." Or: "You’ve got your minds made up and don’t care about what we think." Comments like that have no credibility, at all, so I couldn't care less how Blizzard handle them.

Just my two pence, really.

[Tython]

Blizzard lost me with Cataclysms recylced content. Although I like the Monk idea in MoP, I don't care for losing all my talents for new "choices" that won't really matter. It will just be a step backward like the old system; if you lack a talent for a boss, respec to get the optimal talent for said boss. Blizzard could easily have made the talent trees non-cookie cutter by inserting meaningfully different abilities in each tree. Instead they took the lazy path with stat adjustments. Anyway, I like my talent trees and I'm glad they are alive and well in SWTOR. I unsubscribed and moving on to a better game. Farewell.

[DBZMerciter2005]

I actually like the fact that he's telling people, "Hey no, you're wrong." After working in retail there is nothing more I'd like to tell customers than, "You are wrong," and to have the balls to do it? Well, that's courage right there. Gives me a little more respect for the man, not that he had much to begin with.

[KaoGen]

"game design, like art, is often subjective." well of course it is... Games are art, and peoples opinions of a painting can be different when its half finished compared to when it actually is.

[Faunwea]

I like changes.