What happened to "Bring the player, not the class"?

[Deleted]

Blizzard do seem to favour classes - For example, Why do Holy Paladins get more drops that any other healer?

Paladins are the most played class, better keep them happy.

[Deleted]

The top guilds ARE bringing the player, those players are just bringing the class.

Unless you are REALLY pushing for realm firsts now or whatnot there is really no reason to bench your awesome hunter for that aweseome mage as both CAN do their job at a level required to clear content.


Also take into account that ALOT of mages have Orange staff

[vaticon]

Tell your mage to l2p. I was doing 60k dps on that fight on my mage alt and I dont have anything close to the legendary. Im firelands normal and some LFR parts.

[n0n3]

This game will never be balanced, just roll wichever class it's the most op in that patch, atm mages,wars and rogues are at the top, mages have a very easy rotation so u wont have a big problem in starting to top those meters once you rerolled.
If you cant beat them join them.
Blizzard will never start doing something until they lose money and that wont happen anytime soon.

[calibro]

I'm playing feral dps on Heroic Spine, get over yourself and stop whining. Ferals are fine.

[Pusekatten]

Tell your mage to l2p. I was doing 60k dps on that fight on my mage alt and I dont have anything close to the legendary. Im firelands normal and some LFR parts.

Thats what I meen, even a crapy mage can pull high numbers just because hes a mage, while other clases have to work like hell just to get close, and even then they wont beat them.

[Deleted]

So what happened to the old saying "Bring the player, not the class"?

Clearly blizz don't give a shit about it anymore, because if you don't have a mage now a day, your not gonna have a chance to compete against a mage... it's that simple.
I play a feral dps myself, and I have been told that I can't expect to be top on the damage meters. I had 3 heroic items from FL (polearm included), and 2piece tier 13 set, and 2piece t12 set. I did 44,1k dps on madness 10man last week, and got ranked as nr.149 feral dps on world of logs that night, while our mage (who has the legendary staff) had a little over 50k dps, and he didnt even make the top200 fire mage list that night.
I personally think its fucked up that just because you rolled a mage, your support to be on top from ICC to MoP (yes mages was ok in 4.0.6 or whatever, but thats how it should be).

Some here might ask why I don't just level up a mage and start playing the so OP class, its because I like my feral druid, and I have to vomit every hour I level up in wow, because its so fucking boring.

Fun fact! your mage with legendary is quite bad! I did 56k dps on madness on my 378 geared ALT fire mage. Merry christmas!

Another note. I did 61k on my ret a while back when I was dpsing on that fight (nowadays i'm just healing), so I doubt you can't do more than 44k as feral.

[Deleted]

Fun fact! your mage with legendary is quite bad! I did 56k dps on madness on my 378 geared ALT fire mage. Merry christmas!

Normal mode =/= LFR

[Karazee]

All this time, and you people still have no idea what "bring the player, not the class" means.

It has nothing to do with world first, bleeding edge progression. It never has, no matter how much you want to make it so. It doesn't even have to do with what class is competitive with which other class on one specific fight, like the OP wants. All it means, and all it was ever meant to mean, was that a group of 10 friends could do some raiding on normal mode, see the content and get decently far without having to worry about not having or being forced to have a certain class in their group. That's it. Period. End of story.

You people have tried to twist and turn this philosophy for a long time now to get it to apply to whatever you think it should apply to, and it's getting painful to watch you mangle what was supposed to be a simple exercise in reading comprehension.

[Mammoon]

Unless you are pushing top end progression, you can generally bring whatever class you want. Once you get into heroic modes, there will be fights that are certainly more difficult if you raid comp is something ridiculous (like all melee dps), but generally by the time you reach bosses like heroic spine the fight will have either been nerfed or you will (or should) have the gear to beat it without recruiting 5 more mages and rogues.

Blizzard has said multiple times that their goal is to make all classes be able to put out similar numbers. However, realistically there is no way that you can design 20 different dps specs to all put out literally the exact same number if played perfectly. Classes scale better or worse. Trinkets are different every patch. People get legendaries. People get lucky with procs. People get lucky with drops, or have better tier bonuses. Some fights favored certain classes or specs. Etc

In general, most dps classes can put out similar numbers if played properly with similar gear levels. This is Blizzard's goals. Overall, they have done a good job with this during Cata.

Also, why would you ever base your dps numbers on a fight like madness...?

[Deleted]

I'm afraid that kind of things disappered after TBC. It's a known fact that pve content has become far inferior compared to what it was in say BT or SWP. And so is the way the raids are built, stacking classes is here which is retarded. Yet another reason to roll for pvp =)

-Ewyn

[Solidusbr]

"Bring the player with the right class"

[inboundpaper]

More shared utility, that's about it. Deeps inequalities may be a result of the old Hybrid tax concept.

[Deleted]

You obviously didn't get my point so I'm going to explain it very slowly.

The saying "Bring the player not the class" only applies to normal mode, where players aren't really raiding since it's not heroic. Therefore no ones cares about that as long as heroic is on the topic, because heroic is not on par with average players which this sentence is meant for. Heroic allows all the right to stack any classes guilds prefer.
Got it?

I don't agree with you at all.
I'm a boomkin myself, we don't have a warlock so I don't get any buff, except we got a mage as other caster.
Lately I was last on dps on most fights. Now a guy ninja left the guild, we invited a pug lock, and I was top2-3 every fight. This includes normals obviously but in general my dps went up between 2.5k - 5k. And the lock wasn't even demo, so no 10% sp buff.

[Deleted]

I don't agree with you at all.
I'm a boomkin myself, we don't have a warlock so I don't get any buff, except we got a mage as other caster.
Lately I was last on dps on most fights. Now a guy ninja left the guild, we invited a pug lock, and I was top2-3 every fight. This includes normals obviously but in general my dps went up between 2.5k - 5k. And the lock wasn't even demo, so no 10% sp buff.

Dark intent.

[velde046]

I play a feral dps myself, and I have been told that I can't expect to be top on the damage meters. I had 3 heroic items from FL (polearm included), and 2piece tier 13 set, and 2piece t12 set. I did 44,1k dps on madness 10man last week, and got ranked as nr.149 feral dps on world of logs that night, while our mage (who has the legendary staff) had a little over 50k dps, and he didnt even make the top200 fire mage list that night.

So what that mages are top at the moment? Raiding still is a team effort. As long as everybody does their job and the boss goes down all should be fine. I don't care where I am on the DPS meters really (and I sometimes get beat by a rogue in our guild anyway). I have not interest in charts stroking my E-Peen. I'm just glad if we down the boss.
So you have two options really:
- If you want to top the charts, go play mage. Might not last into next expansion but hey...
- Shut up and accept the fact that even though you're not number one on the DPS list, you still have an important role in the raid.

[Dazzy]

Why does it matter? So tired of all these threads from casuals that ARE NOT getting benched because they're guild is competing for world firsts.
98% of the time it's from people whose guilds don't bench people ever.


If your raid has enough dps to kill normal and hard modes that you are progressing on, why does it matter who is top?


Why are people so insecure that they feel the need to come on a non-blizzard website and complain that somebody else in their raid that is helping them kill the bosses is doing too much damage?

You realize if all you people crying for mage nerfs or any other pve nerfs, you'll be stuck on bosses for weeks due to lack of dps, I guess if that sounds fun to you....

(I don't play a mage other than to aoe farm skins, ilvl 300 still)


The game has never even been close to balanced since day 1 (where most specs in the game weren't even viable to dps in pve), and they never will be.

Imagine if your feral dps was the top dps in the game, topping better geared mages with a legendary weapon, does that sound right to you? Didn't think so.

Currently 4/7 hm's and guess what, we don't have a single mage, but we have a shaman of each spec. So bring whatever player you want, it's more of a l2p or l2adapt issue.

[velde046]

All this time, and you people still have no idea what "bring the player, not the class" means.

It has nothing to do with world first, bleeding edge progression. It never has, no matter how much you want to make it so. It doesn't even have to do with what class is competitive with which other class on one specific fight, like the OP wants. All it means, and all it was ever meant to mean, was that a group of 10 friends could do some raiding on normal mode, see the content and get decently far without having to worry about not having or being forced to have a certain class in their group. That's it. Period. End of story.

You people have tried to twist and turn this philosophy for a long time now to get it to apply to whatever you think it should apply to, and it's getting painful to watch you mangle what was supposed to be a simple exercise in reading comprehension.

Thank you very much, I bet most of the whiners forget this as soon as they have read the last word on the sentence but good try. Maybe you'll educate a few more.

[TheViper]

mages give up alot to have that dps

an arcane mage has superior burst but sacrifices sustained dps, survivabilty.
a fire mage has good survival, good sustained dps but crap burst and can be very rng dependant
a frost mage has excellent survival, short dps burst, crap sustained dps

in the op's example, he did 12% less dps, which is some, but not out of the realm's of rng.

Of course, if your in the lucky situation where you have 25 people who each have 4-5 geared toons, of course you will the most optimal setup you can.

Its IMPOSSIBLE to have 30specs in 10 classes all perfectly for all fights, its just not going to happen. Some fights will naturally be better for certain classes. It just happens that spine is perfect for arcane mages right now, hence all the attention its getting.

[Deadraline]

I don't really think who's on top of the dps charts should matter as much as it does. Someone is always going to be on the top, and someone is always going to be on the bottom. Sure it's nice to top charts every now and again, and it seems unfair that it's always "this class" on top. But I've always used dps meters not as a "OH look I'm on top! I must be pro!" because that's just silly. You could be in a group with baddies and not down a boss and be top dps and do 100 attempts because you will always hit beserker. The whole point of recount and addons like it is to show people that you need X amount of dps from each player to down this boss. When blizz says your classes DPS is working as intended, I believe they are referring to that class being 100% capable of reaching the minimum (and hopefully exceeding it greatly) dps required to down said boss.

But it might also be worth it to give the game some time. Sometimes you'd be surprised with which characters come out on top at the end of an expansion. It may end up balancing out near the end with proper gear more than people think. Truthfully though it doesn't matter what blizz does to classes because each player is different. And like I said, damage meters can only ever have one top dps. The most anyone can do is keep playing the class you love to play.