< 70 Rogues' damage should be lowered by 50%

[Gouca]

It's a fact that heirlooms scale so differently compared to spell stuff. It's also a fact that 60 epics do not have enough spell power to compete with 60 melee weapons. At 70 the situation seems to be quite fine, since you can heal through a rogue burst.

At lower levels, Rogue can pretty much one-shot any class with Ambush. For example, while I was leveling my druid:

- level 34, My hp: 2100. Rogue ambush: 2900
- level 49, My hp: 3800. Rogue ambush: 4600
- level 60, My hp: 6100. Rogue ambush: 5100, eviscerate 4500

As a resto druid I can not survive, since I am one-shotted (/ two-shotted with instant eviscerate). Since 2005 I have found Rogues extremely OP with Ambush at lower levels, and the situation is still the same.

[Deleted]

This is a problem with several classes, not just rogues. The bad thing about rogues is that you can't spot them before it's too late. For example just a few days ago on my level 68 Warlock (roughly 6k hp) I got crit for a 7k aimed shot. But warriors and elemental shamans for example can easily kill you in 2 attacks/spells so it's aproblem with multiple classes. Hopefully the reduced weapon damage scaling of skills and baseline resilience will fix this in Mists.

[Deleted]

I finished lvl'ing a rogue last week and i can tell you dmg is a problem up untill 70 i could kill anyone with an Ambush followed by a Backstab on heirloom geared players not heriloom geared only ambush usually. I was full heirlooms equiped. The problems now is with Hunters and Rogues rest is fine in my opinion. On many bg's as a rogue i usually was top dmg dealer cuz i dont really like to stay stealthed a lot i dont really care if i die and get a killing blow

[RadmaKanow]

Let me guess, that Rogue:
- fully Heirloom'd
- best spec
- enchants
- food/flask
- probably BiS non-heirloom gear

And you complain about OP burst? At lvl 70 Elemental Shaman (mine, heirloom gear, rest quest green/instance blues, no gems, no enchants, no other buffs) Flame Shock crit for 1.5k followed by a Lava Burst crit with 5.6k... And I bet if I'd gear better, enchant, gem, glyph the numbers would be even bigger.

Rogues must have high burst because they cannot be on par with sustain damage. Look at their mechanic. Burst for high damage, CC for low sustain damage and combo build then high damage burst again. If "oh shii..." situation they vanish and repeat.

[Enamy]

i am a dedicated 70 twink player myself, and with knowledge about pretty much all the classes at those levels i can tell you that yes, there is no balance between classes. above 2.2 arena rating you only meet the best classes (not a warrior in sight up there, ill tell you that much). some classes have just insane burst damage. rogues, frost mages, prot (!) paladins (even without vengeance) are some of the classes/specs that stand out. warriors, warlocks, boomkins, and a variety of other classes/specs do not just suffer on lack of burst damage, but also on survivability. from 70 and below, all PvP damage/healing is completely out of scale compared to your HP. example: on my mage i have 15 k HP buffed in arena. 500 resi (bout 35 % dmg reduce) and shields for 8 + 2 k (ice barrier + mana shield). two ice blocks. in shatters i can still crit for 7 + 5 k frostbolt + ice lance on targets with 500 + resi. this makes mages avery good pvp class on 70. rogues can crit about 6-7 k ambush with 6-7 k eviscerates. they have a shadow dance (spam ambush) every 1 min, and two resets (vanish + prep vanish), and also cheat death. this makes them viable because they are classes that can survive a 1shot-burst from other classes. warriors on the other hand, have no hard resets, no heavy burst damage, and lack of cc. this makes them BAD in lower level PvP.
for healing, it is the same. a priest penance heals for 4k x3, wich is 12 k. so a full penance, even non crit, can top you up easily. if we compare this to 85 pvp, a mage shatter with CDS will do about 25+20 k on a full resi target. this is still just 35-40 % of your max HP. on level 70, a mage shatter for 7+5 k is 12 k, and if you have 14 k hp, that is more than 80 % of your total HP. some healers are more powerfull aswell. resto druids are probablly the worst healer class of the 4 available ones, simply because you only have 1 fast/instant-i-am-gonna-top-you-up heal. paladins can basically top a person up with holy shock or word of glory, shamans can do 50 % of your HP with one riptide, and priests can put an 8k shield on you, with a 7 k prayer of mending. druids have to keep hot up on a target at all times, so they are easy to counter. if a druid has lifebloom + rejuv on their dps target, one can just swap to the druid, cause he has to use 4 globals just to get up his hots up on himself. he has no flash heal, only 1 instant heal every 15 secs. a mage or rogue can kill you in 2-3 globals. on level 85, a priest penance isnt 12 k, or 80 % of your hp, its 3x 12k, wich is roughly 35-40 % of your HP. nuff said

so the issue is really that players abilities are in general much more powerfull than the health pool of the players. baseline resillience is probably not going to fix this issue unless it means 70-80 % damage reduction against players (healers on lower levels are generally filled to the max with resi, over 50 % damage reduce, due to their heals being able to top up their partners anyway). but this also means healers will have to get an insane healing nerf. one cant have a partner doing 2 k ambush crits on an enemy target when their healer can outheal the damage with a renew?

as you can see, this is not only a rogue issue. if all damage/healing for players in the 70s and below were reduced 50-80 %, this would be a much more balanced scene. at the moment priests, shammys and pala healers dont even have to cast to outheal a dps if they can LoS/rangerun the dps every now and then.

so basically, as it is today, it is like "can i survive his burst? and if i can, will he be able to survive mine?". and by burst, i mean 2-3 globals or getting a player from 100% to 0 % HP in the 7 secs their healers are sheeped/sapped etc

[Labz]

Rogues must have high burst because they cannot be on par with sustain damage. Look at their mechanic. Burst for high damage, CC for low sustain damage and combo build then high damage burst again. If "oh shii..." situation they vanish and repeat.

The mechanic is similar with mages. They are designed to have low armor so the only way to make up for that is to give them good burst and kiting/CC ability.

[blabber]

Keep in mind it's designed so it all evens out @ the level cap (85)

[Toobad]

What is even more stupid is disc priests' bubbles - it will almost fully abstorb all these op bursts, and is usually followed by Psychic Scream, SP:P and Penance, which, in most cases, will kill you, becouse you don't have CoS yet. And the pvp trinket is on 5 min CD.

So the only problem with rogues is that you can't see them. As for the damage, even the healers do ridicoulous amount of damage in a very short time.

[Demetrion]

That doesn't change the fact that my lock (level 70) with 700 resilience and soul link up dies to brutal geared rogue within first 3 seconds of garrote silence.

Sure, my lock also hits like a truck (6K conflags, 6-7K chaos bolts), but at least in my case, people have a way to defend themselves.


All damage on lower levels should be tuned down by considerable amounts.


EDIT: This was supposed to have a quote >_<

[Tanthalas]

When I was levelling my DK few months ago, I was capable of 1 or 2-shotting ANY class in blood spec via Death Strike up to almost level 85 :<

But yeah, as it was said earlier - you can't spot rogue before it's too late, impossible to run away.

[Nyaldee]

Man it's the same on frost mage, during lvling one i've never once got killed by my lvl +-4, not even rogues. In 95% encounters ppls weren't even trying to engage me and i safely ignored them. But lvling lock i remmember being free kill for every class out there. In the end it doesn't matter, you'll get your max lvl and then you'll see what's really need balancing (ironicly rogues are #1 on my "nerf them plz" list). If Blizzard can't balance their focus auditory - max lvls, then how can we expect em balancing anything below?

P.S. If you're talking about twinking expirience then you can't expect anything other then through-the-roof dmg, since every time pre-expansion patch hits dmg goes out of control for every class, and currently it's 2d expansion since lvl 70. I would advice you to get to lvl 85 and start pvping there, but you'll just face same amount of disbalance there. All in all we're again at the point where only thing we can expect is "new expansion will fix everything" catchphrase from Blizzard.

[Elixor]

Ambush could be tweaked in low level against players only or in general. But they are not the only one that needs tweaking, but they are certainly on top list.

Edit: Have leveled everything except mage.

[nezgral]

This game is balanced around end game.... LOL jk even then it's not balanced. Listen this is cata pvp get used to it or wait till MOP like me and everyone else that doesn't play a mage, feral, or rogue.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind it's designed so it all evens out @ the level cap (85)

Evens out at when? lol I havent seen much balance in the last few expansion.

[Hedleyazg]

They're fixing this in MoP.

[Deleted]

Every class is capable of doing that.

[loki504]

if you lower rogue dmg by around 50% you will end up doing sucky dmg in pve. but its not only a rogue problem. all weapon scale attacks scale insane with weapon. but they are trying to fix this in MoP

[Deleted]

It's a fact that heirlooms scale so differently compared to spell stuff. It's also a fact that 60 epics do not have enough spell power to compete with 60 melee weapons. At 70 the situation seems to be quite fine, since you can heal through a rogue burst.

At lower levels, Rogue can pretty much one-shot any class with Ambush. For example, while I was leveling my druid:

- level 34, My hp: 2100. Rogue ambush: 2900
- level 49, My hp: 3800. Rogue ambush: 4600
- level 60, My hp: 6100. Rogue ambush: 5100, eviscerate 4500

As a resto druid I can not survive, since I am one-shotted (/ two-shotted with instant eviscerate). Since 2005 I have found Rogues extremely OP with Ambush at lower levels, and the situation is still the same.

I'd love to see actual proof of these numbers. Currently I'm levelling a rogue myself, it's at level 30 and my ambush crits for no more than 800, and that's with shadowstep. I somehow doubt in 4 levels that ambush will increase by that much.

Now getting two shotted I can understand but theres not a whole lot Blizzard are going to do about that. They have said time and time again that they will not even try to balance things below max level (unless it's an extreme issue like say mages being able to one shot people 10 levels higher than themselves with ice lance). And I for one don't want them to either. The lower levels fly by so fast that your 85 before you know it and if your purposefully staying low level for whatever reason, you have to be prepared for crappy class balance.

Put simply, balancing classes at all 85 levels would be a chore and a massive drain on already limited resources Blizzard is using to develop this game. Patches and content is steadily getting worse and worse and I for one would rather they didnt spend any time on fruitless matters such as low level PvP.

Also inb4 someone calls my bluff on damage :-

[Pua]

I think Blizzard are trying to do something about this in MoP, both with inherent base resilience for characters and a redistribution of how damage is dealt (hence the “nerfs” on the latest talent calculator).

Put simply, I think they’re trying to correct it.

[Himora]

What is even more stupid is disc priests' bubbles - it will almost fully abstorb all these op bursts, and is usually followed by Psychic Scream, SP:P and Penance, which, in most cases, will kill you, becouse you don't have CoS yet. And the pvp trinket is on 5 min CD.

So the only problem with rogues is that you can't see them. As for the damage, even the healers do ridicoulous amount of damage in a very short time.

what? thats there "biggest" defence, i backstab the amount of a shield which is generally around 30k, then its a 15sec cool down while i eat them to 0hp