Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Kakera]

If some of you spent as much effort into raging about why 25 man is dying as you did in actual raiding maybe you would have the effort required to raid 25 man content. Raging and complaining is a waste of time. Go play the game.

[Talen]

Why schould blizzard do it well numbers more people raided back in wrath than in cata when you look at the numbers. Now those people probably just quit aren't subscribing anymore -->no money for blizzard. It comes down to them having a product which it is worth subscribing to.

And assuming that they quit - if they did - solely because of the raid model is a huge assumption.

Thing is, of all the complaints about Cataclysm, the one most likely to have resulted in subscription loss is the near complete lack of end game outside rading. And its the issue Blizzard addressed. Such losses would have affected raiding...but they likely couldn't be blamed omn the raiding model.

And again no blizzard didn't force them they choose to follow their own greed.

They designed a raid model where the point was to get the gear necessary to progress. Players going for the gear is a very large part of the raiding game. It is, in many ways, the entire point. Going after the loot isn't bad. But Blizzard created a situation where to do so, you literally HAD to raid in certain formats.

I know you like to use the negatively charged word forced but the reality is no they weren't forced it was a choice if i want those purple pixels, mount and titles i can only get them in 25 so do i want them or don't I.

The goal and purpose of the game is to get those little purple icons. So yes, players were compelled to go get them. They weren't an option if you were a raider.

And the trouble with that goal is that it actually has nothing to do with how many people you need to raid with. You raid to get gear to down the content to move onto the next raid to get gear. What you need is a raid group. The size of that raid group, however, is arbitrary. There is nothing there in that goal that requires 25 people. You need a raid group to enter a raid instance. Not 25 people...a raid group.

And actually i think my argument that. "Maybe in the end it comes down to that most people prefer the format where its EASIER to kill stuff and get their purple pixels and be sure to get that raidspot they want." is closest to the truth. And that group is probably the majority of raiders, now the problem is when the 2 formats have to try get that same segment 10s just end up winning because stuff is easier to kill there its the easier road to the kill and the loot.

Easier "road". Its is far easier to get into a 10, far easier to organise. Far easier to schedule. It is also easier to stack the group in yuor favor if you are one of those players who likes to grab a bunch of uber-elite uber-geared players to simply steamroller content. The question is not whether that group has an easier time than Group B who is mad eof Average Joes; its whether they have an easier time than they would if they were in a similarly skilled, similarly geared 25 man group.

And strangely enough the way recruitment has been this expansion for 25s would back me up.

You seem to think this is actually an important point. It isn't. It literally does not matter why players prefer 10s. Is it because it is easier to schedule? Easier to stack the raid? More accessible? Maybe they even do find it easier to progress and down content.

The point is that there is nothing Blizzard has done to draw them there. They are free to consider each format on its own merits and raid the format that they prefer based on their own set of criteria. They get nothing from one that they cannot get from the other so the choice is entirely up to them and what they consider important.

And as well as the feel of the format, that may indeed include convenience. Accessibility, Scheduling. Guild requirements. And so on. And there is nothing wrong with that.

The first question you ask yourself is do i want to raid and then you ask yourself what format do i want to raid in. Just look at the people downsizing to 10s from 25 they asked the question do i want to raid and said yes and end up with what format do i want to raid and end with i can only raid 10 because we can't get enough people to run a 25 man, so i will have to settle with 10 man if i want to raid.

And maybe they said "I prefer 10s". Or maybe they said "I prefer the feel of 25s but prefer the accessibility of 10s and between the two, accessibility wins out".

What they cannot do is say "I want to get item X or see content Y so I need to run format Z whether I want to or not."

And i think for most people coming into raiding its just a question of i want to raid, and i don't care which format so lets look at what each format can offer.

Yes. They don't care which format. Why channel them into 25s if they don't care? Theres no reason for them to do either format for feel, so the other aspects - accessibility, scheduling, etc - will gain prominence. Whats wrong with that?

Funky enough nothing stopped you from raiding with your friends back in wrath, you could do it and also still follow your greedy little heart and raid 25s if you wanted to. You had the freedom of choice. You could even raid 2 times a week with your mainchar if you wanted to. And it not even the 2 times a week now where you go into lfr and then raid normally, no it was 2 times a week where you could raid with people you knew and could interact with.

Raiding multiple times per lockout forces Blizzard to baalnce proghression around that. If you coudl onyl raid once per lockout, well too bad. The shared lockout means Blizzard only has to balance around one completion a week. There is also nothign to stop you rading with friend in Cata and people still can raid 25s if they want to. They still have that freedom of choice...indeed, they have more freedom of choice because they aren't penalised by running the "wrong" format. The trouble is, they have chosen to go with the 10 format. And the downside of that is the lack of players who are able, willing and want to do 25s.

Personally i think the best raiding format in a massive multiplayer online role playing game is a big format where you end up with 20+ people in the raidteam, because you end up with meeting a lot of people that you can interact with and become friends with.

And for others its the samll team. And for others...they don't care; they simply want to raid and will go with the most convenient.

Also big raids give more possibilities for interresting mechanics, there are more pieces to play with for the designer so to say.

Most, if not all of which can be toned down to suit 10s because you simply change the numbers of pieces rather than the types. Going from 6 healers to 4 or 2 isn't as much of a change as going from 2 healers to 1. Multi tank mechanics can be added in regardless of whether there are 2 tanks or 5.

and then pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

Whether you like it or not, having 3 CRs available is indeed one of the mechanics used. You keep stating 25s have more chance for mistakes. You are right, they do. But 25s also have more room for recovery.

EJL

[Deleted]

I can tell you first hand that in my experience those who quit raiding quit playing too so from my personal experience having seen many people stop playing i will safely say they stopped playing and subscribing to WoW-->no money for blizzard.

The question is not whether that group has an easier time than Group B who is mad eof Average Joes; its whether they have an easier time than they would if they were in a similarly skilled, similarly geared 25 man group.

And that question was answered by looking at the paragon experiment a similarly skilled and equipped group had it easier in 10 man firelands than in 25 man firelands. And again you can extrapolate down that it is the same way for the average joes same skilllevel and equip level will end up having it easier in 10 than in 25.

And again you diverted from raiding with mainchar to you can raid with your main and an alt with your friends, which is not the same.

Why are we treating stuff that isn't equal like equal wouldn't it be more fair and more logical to not treat them as equal.
You yourself has stated numerous times that you wanted special raidleader rewards because they are not equal to normal raiders. That 10 man is easier than 25 is also something that you are ok with.

Why not give 25 and 10 equal possibility to be chosen as a format you seem so intent on equallity so why not? The concequens is well 25s die and people who love raiding that format more than raiding in general will just quit. So we end up with the title question will blizzard let 25 mans die?

And because you where nitpicking like hell i will state this again. And yes after the first quote i just stopped quoting you because i choose to switch to the free text format.

Personally i think the best raiding format in a massive multiplayer online role playing game is a big format where you end up with 20+ people in the raidteam, because you end up with meeting a lot of people that you can interact with and become friends with. And the big format also gives room for a lot of different classes and speccs so you don't just get kicked for playing the wrong class/specc a certain tier or after a patch, there is a bit more room so to say. Also big raids give more possibilities for interresting mechanics, there are more pieces to play with for the designer so to say. And big guilds have a higher possibility of having someone to succed if a key person decides to quit, like the guild leader quitting, and are therefore in the long run more stable, and stability is good then people don't have to look for new guilds every few months because woops now the guild died again.

We could take up the whole raidmechanics conversation again but we've been down that road before and i've got my position after having experienced many truely unique and fun mechanics over the years in 25s and you've got your position.

I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

[Deleted]

I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

You are assuming that the ten man raid has perfect class stacking for the fight and all buffs. You've also failed to notice that ten man has two tank and 2-3 healers, which if it translated accross directly would mean 5 tanks, 8 - 10 healers and 10 DPS. You cannot therefore meaningfully compare DPS output. Healing effects which increase the more targets there are in proximity also mean that HPS is not able to be meaningfully compared.

You are also (again) measuring a single ten man raid with a single 25 man raid when you have to measure against in the proper ratio. Find homes for all 25 players in both raid sizes.

25 man is simply easier once you have organised it. 10 man is easier to get going but suffers from class stacking, melee versus ranged, needing to bring X class to down the boss, not having all buffs and debuffs etc issues.

[Talen]

And that question was answered by looking at the paragon experiment a similarly skilled and equipped group had it easier in 10 man firelands than in 25 man firelands.

One raid. One raid by one group. One raid where many of the encounters had no meaningful difference. One raid where they themseleves mentioned that the results had to be looked at given their skill level. As it is, yes...I was disappointed with the difference myself. And yet, it cannot be taken as the norm.

And again you can extrapolate down

Well...no, you can't. Not from one fight by one group, no matter how respected or skilled, especially when they are at a level Blizzard has statred it doesn't balance for.

I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

It has all the tools it normally uses to balance raids. As it is, the question you should be asking is IF Blizzard actually does balance with these criteria in mind. It can do so, it does so with LFR; theres no reasons it doesn't do likewise with 25 mans but its never been stated that they do. Assuming they don't however, is simply undermining your argument.

EJL

[Deleted]

Dps required of each single dpser for ultraxion
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post16952536
It's done by lakhesis earlier in this post and if each raider has to produce about 10% higher dps in 25 than in 10 well lets just say that no buff can do that trick.
And strange where is your fastest runners in the world quote now hmm???

And again your 25 find home for all is irrelevant. If we had 50 paragon raiders and send them raiding one week in 2 25s and next week in 5 10s they would have been faster in the 10s because its easier.

Edit:
and again
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

btw: this was kinda funny

As it is, the question you should be asking is IF Blizzard actually does balance with these criteria in mind. It can do so, it does so with LFR;

[Deleted]

Dps required of each single dpser for ultraxion
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post16952536
It's done by lakhesis earlier in this post and if each raider has to produce about 10% higher dps in 25 than in 10 well lets just say that no buff can do that trick.

Wanna bet?

And strange where is your fastest runners in the world quote now hmm???

And again your 25 find home for all is irrelevant. If we had 50 paragon raiders and send them raiding one week in 2 25s and next week in 5 10s they would have been faster in the 10s because its easier.

Yeah, but we don't have 50 paragon raiders. We have 50 normal raiders who don't have that much buff/class flexibiilty.

i've already outlined why a comparison with the best of the best is irrelevent, don't make me do it again. You'll look stupid.

[Deleted]

I could have taken just 50 normal raiders result would have been the same...

and coming from the person who brought us this well i think it speaks for itself and yes i know this is bordering on ok behaviour on these forums to keep on posting it but i am quite insulted. And it is to understate that the person can't do math whatsoever and has no idea what he is talking about.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post17024645

Then why were you previously comparing one 25 man raid with one 10 man raid?


Why are you multiplying? should be dividing.

11.4/25 = 0.456
versus
18.6/20 or 9.3/10 = 0.93

Proof positive that each ten man raider is more important than his equivalent in a 25 man, and let us nor forget the 5 poor would be raiders with no raid.

I was comparing 25 to 10 too show you that 10s where faster. i could also compare 25 to 10 to another 10 and show that 25 11.4 mins 10a 9.3 mins 10b 9.3 mins. The 25 was longer the 2 seperat 10 where faster.

I am multiplaing because you are working with the concept of man hours in your own strange twisted way, what you are writing is something like Time divided by people, which means what that each raider was in the room under ½ a minute in 25 and 1 minute in 10 that my friend does not make any sense at all.
So what you are saying that each man went in for 1 or ½ minute and the rest of the time they didn't do anything, that is what your calculation says. The truth is that all the raiders where active for the entire 9 or 11 minutes.

[Talen]

Dps required of each single dpser for ultraxion

Whats your point? You think Blizzard is going to be able to balance every encounter to be equally difficult in every single way? Not going to happen.

If we had 50 paragon raiders and send them raiding one week in 2 25s and next week in 5 10s they would have been faster in the 10s because its easier.

Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on if Blizzard baalnces around coordination, to what degree and how that will affect a group who already has a very high degree of coordination.

I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:

Its a stupid question. How do you think Blizzard balances encounters in the game?

And why do you not want to acknowledge the fact that having 3 CRs is one of the mechanics Blizzard uses?

EJL

[Deleted]

Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.

Whats your point? You think Blizzard is going to be able to balance every encounter to be equally difficult in every single way? Not going to happen.

You even said it yourself they can't ever balance it so that they are equal. And again i will say then they schouldn't be regarded as equal

I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.
So untill now we have a list of

difference in
coordination
spacing
hps and dps requirements
raidfailcheck

and the only thing you can show in return is
3 combatrezzes

and the only reason you say 3 combatrezzes is because i gave it to you to begin with
so plz show us from your vast knowledge about raiding in this expansion where we have things balancing it out.

and again and again
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

[Deleted]

Wanna bet?


Yeah, but we don't have 50 paragon raiders. We have 50 normal raiders who don't have that much buff/class flexibiilty.

i've already outlined why a comparison with the best of the best is irrelevent, don't make me do it again. You'll look stupid.

So you say that right now ok...We're not having the same skill with Paragon raiders but we want the same gear in a more Pony difficulty.
And ofc i am asure that 10-man are amazinnnnng hard knowing that have passed 7 months and people are still with 3/8 heroic.>?
Let me guess my alts and most of pugs right now are 6/8 heroic within a 3-hour/week run ** and some dedicated people are even doing 8/8 heroic pugs (Auchindoun Eu-server ) Ty

Something is hard yes when people are Bad and ofc they don't wanna put time effort but want to get the same results...
Nerf was in need for the people that was hitting a wall... But not sure right now if people hit the wall or right now the wall is hitting the people.....

[Deleted]

I could have taken just 50 normal raiders result would have been the same...

No it wouldn't. normal raiders are people who struggle on blackthorn (for example) because they have too many melee and no ranged online that night.

and coming from the person who brought us this well i think it speaks for itself and yes i know this is bordering on ok behaviour on these forums to keep on posting it but i am quite insulted. And it is to understate that the person can't do math whatsoever and has no idea what he is talking about.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post17024645


I was comparing 25 to 10 too show you that 10s where faster. i could also compare 25 to 10 to another 10 and show that 25 11.4 mins 10a 9.3 mins 10b 9.3 mins. The 25 was longer the 2 seperat 10 where faster.

I am multiplaing because you are working with the concept of man hours in your own strange twisted way, what you are writing is something like Time divided by people, which means what that each raider was in the room under ½ a minute in 25 and 1 minute in 10 that my friend does not make any sense at all.
So what you are saying that each man went in for 1 or ½ minute and the rest of the time they didn't do anything, that is what your calculation says. The truth is that all the raiders where active for the entire 9 or 11 minutes.

And why not have longer in 25 man? Blizzard knows it's easier, so they need longer to balance the difficulty.

[Talen]

Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.

They aren't equal in the same way. That doesn't mean they don't require the same (or roughly so) degree of effort.

I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.

Blizzard adjusts a LOT of factor to balance raids. Health, damage output, spacing and range requirements. You are asking me to point the sspecific mechancis Blizzard put into place to compensate for the increased difficulty of coordination. Its a stupid question. Balance involves taking into account numerous factors and adjusting a number of factors, some of which may be unique to various, in response till the raid is as difficult as you want it to be.

If you wnat the specifics of who much health Boss A had removed to accomodate the increase in difficulty, or how much his DPS was lowered then you would need to ask Blizzard. Not me.

EJL

[Gsara]

Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.

You even said it yourself they can't ever balance it so that they are equal. And again i will say then they schouldn't be regarded as equal

I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.
So untill now we have a list of

difference in
coordination
spacing
hps and dps requirements
raidfailcheck

and the only thing you can show in return is
3 combatrezzes

and the only reason you say 3 combatrezzes is because i gave it to you to begin with
so plz show us from your vast knowledge about raiding in this expansion where we have things balancing it out.

and again and again
I will ask you again then because you didn't answer the question:
pls show me the things that blizzard has done to balance around difference in coordination, spacing, raidfailcheck, difference in required dps and hps output etc. Because i can't find them.(and don't say you got 3!!!! combatrezzes, thats just laughable)

I agree with your posts, but do you have a comparison for heroic. I may have just missed it or something if you do.

[Deleted]

So you say that right now ok...We're not having the same skill with Paragon raiders but we want the same gear in a more Pony difficulty.
And ofc i am asure that 10-man are amazinnnnng hard knowing that have passed 7 months and people are still with 3/8 heroic.>?
Let me guess my alts and most of pugs right now are 6/8 heroic within a 3-hour/week run ** and some dedicated people are even doing 8/8 heroic pugs (Auchindoun Eu-server ) Ty

Something is hard yes when people are Bad and ofc they don't wanna put time effort but want to get the same results...
Nerf was in need for the people that was hitting a wall... But not sure right now if people hit the wall or right now the wall is hitting the people.....

Here is a really simple mental exericse for you to do.

First, see all the people who you wouldn't take to a HC raid run.

Then imagine they also still carry on playing the game and try to raid.

Thanks!

Edit - for added flavour, imagine that those are normal, average players of the game and that what you call "bad" is merely normal and your willingness to ditch the underperforming simply blinds you to how the game is for most people.

[Deleted]

Here is a really simple mental exericse for you to do.

First, see all the people who you wouldn't take to a HC raid run.

Then imagine they also still carry on playing the game and try to raid.

Thanks!

Well from what i read right now and until now from You and Talen.

This game should be made from terribads. And actually works.
Hope to see an 10-man version of Lfr .This gonna be quite amazing .! For the lol

[voidillusion]

"Hey guys i raid in 10 man heroic mode and i cant kill more than 3 bosses even with a 25% nerf, so 10 man hc mode is serious business"

^^ This is what you sound like, seriously.

[Deleted]

"Hey guys i raid in 10 man heroic mode and i cant kill more than 3 bosses even with a 25% nerf, so 10 man hc mode is serious business"

^^ This is what you sound like, seriously.

If I was saying I was amazing or had any pretensions to be so, you'd have a point. If my own skill level had any bearing whatsoever on the discussion at hand, you'd also have a point.

I'm quite happy to say I am average at best though, so you don't.

What I will say is that I have played (at varying levels of hardcorosity) for the entire length of the game and do know about 25 man versus 10 man difficulty as it's faced by average players. Which are the only players that count in a mass market game played overwhelmingly by average people and that for everyone amazing there is correspondingly someone who is awful. I'll just add that anyone "good" at the game who doesn't get this simple fact and doesn't realise they are statsically irrelevent is kinda dumb.

---------- Post added 2012-06-16 at 02:30 PM ----------

Well from what i read right now and until now from You and Talen.

This game should be made from terribads. And actually works.
Hope to see an 10-man version of Lfr .This gonna be quite amazing .! For the lol

No mate, no. You need to get your head around the simple fact that "good" players tend to hoof "bad" players out of their raids and therefore don't see how the game is for them. That's fine, but "good" players are a small subset of the game, an irrelevence. Paragon and chums have as much to do with the game as most people play it as their bell curve opposites, the guys who struggle to even log in and find it hard to move a toon around.

You are irrelevent, time to face it.

[Deleted]

Here is a really simple mental exericse for you to do.

First, see all the people who you wouldn't take to a HC raid run.

Then imagine they also still carry on playing the game and try to raid.

Thanks!

Edit - for added flavour, imagine that those are normal, average players of the game and that what you call "bad" is merely normal and your willingness to ditch the underperforming simply blinds you to how the game is for most people.

I will tell you how this works if you want to know.

First, the average and the underperformers in a team, usually are not officers or leaders in the team, and they don't wish to become one either.

Second. Back in the past, since 25 was "the end game" as it should have been, because smt so complicated shouldnt exist for "cosmetic" reasons only like it does now, the majority of people wanted to take part in it.
Inevitably, the best teams had the most chances to get the best players as soon as they had a gap in their roster.
The ones right bellow had less chances to do so, and usually some people in their roster were "carried".
And then there were others, in all ranges of the skill spectrum, with one common goal: To raid 25.
Those non top guilds always strived to replace or improve the underperformers. And at the same time they were losing every now and then a good raider. It was a constant strugle, but there was always a hope for improvement.

Third. What happened now? Someone from blizzard said to people "i don't care how things are, this is how things will be from now on." Why? Unkown since the system was working fine. Result? Failed. Since the system worked so badly that they brought LFR to patch the mess it brought.

Fourth. What was the deal after this failed model got implemented?
The good players saw it as a chance to get rid of the "bads" by downsizing. The "bads" that by definition never wanted to strive to become officers themselves lost their raiding spot and now they just do LFR with 10 alts each.

Now what is the future for 10 man teams?
I hate to say that i am glad for it but i am!
The future is like a box of rotten potatoes. Till now they had it easy, they were feeding from the flesh of the 25 teams that were falling appart.
Now though, as the game is turning more and more tasteless, and as LFR is the tool to trash down raids, and make the temptation to improve your gameplay for normal and heroics vanish, the pool of potential new recruits are only themselves!
The new game cycle of the grand majority of ex raiders will be consisted of, LFR, pet battles, and farmville.

Fascinating .
Bash more 25s, bash more those that are trying to express an opinion or a request for smt to be done to save them, and enjoy endless hours of mindless grind in MoP, farming pets, farming grosseries, farming RDF, Farming LFR, farming "level cap arenan 2X2". Large raids, and everything old wow used to offer, are the source of evil .

[Deleted]

I will tell you how this works if you want to know.

First, the average and the underperformers in a team, usually are not officers or leaders in the team, and they don't wish to become one either.

I'm a guildleader. I know this. The average still want to play, however. Got a godo reason why they shoudn't be able to?

Second. Back in the past, since 25 was "the end game" as it should have been, because smt so complicated shouldnt exist for "cosmetic" reasons only like it does now, the majority of people wanted to take part in it.
Inevitably, the best teams had the most chances to get the best players as soon as they had a gap in their roster.
The ones right bellow had less chances to do so, and usually some people in their roster were "carried".
And then there were others, in all ranges of the skill spectrum, with one common goal: To raid 25.

No, The goal was loot, raiding was the mechanism. The proof for this is that now the loot is in 10's, they do 10's.

Those non top guilds always strived to replace or improve the underperformers. And at the same time they were losing every now and then a good raider. It was a constant strugle, but there was always a hope for improvement.

Where did they go? Do you think that those "underperformers" evaporate once you've got rid of them? Or do they form their own guilds and struggle?

Third. What happened now? Someone from blizzard said to people "i don't care how things are, this is how things will be from now on." Why? Unkown since the system was working fine. Result? Failed. Since the system worked so badly that they brought LFR to patch the mess it brought.

Cataclysm was far, far, far too difficult. They fixed it eventually. They won't make that mistake again, thank goodness.

Fourth. What was the deal after this failed model got implemented?
The good players saw it as a chance to get rid of the "bads" by downsizing. The "bads" that by definition never wanted to strive to become officers themselves lost their raiding spot and now they just do LFR with 10 alts each.

Oh, you almost go it.

Now what is the future for 10 man teams?
I hate to say that i am glad for it but i am!
The future is like a box of rotten potatoes. Till now they had it easy, they were feeding from the flesh of the 25 teams that were falling appart.
Now though, as the game is turning more and more tasteless, and as LFR is the tool to trash down raids, and make the temptation to improve your gameplay for normal and heroics, the pool of potential new recruits are only themselves!
The new game cycle of the grand majority of ex raiders will be consisted of, LFR, pet battles, and farmville.

Fascinating .
Bash more 25s, bash more those that are trying to express an opinion or a request for smt to be done to save them, and enjoy endless hours of mindless grind in MoP, farming pets, farming grosseries, farming RDF, Farming LFR, farming "level cap arenan 2X2". Large raids, and everything old wow used to offer, are the source of evil .

Dunno mate, I went strict ten man with my guild back in wrath.

LFR is the best thing that has happened to the game. Blizzards realising that sky high difficulty sucks dick a close second. Probably third is their realising that the super hardcore are never going to be happy, so fuck 'em.