Are you enjoying the endgame?

[Silenteyes]

That doesn't even make sense. GW2 didn't even remove the grind or the treadmill, all they removed was the content that you'd normally be striving to do while grinding along.

There's more grind for gear in GW2 than just about any modern MMO I've seen recently, it really is pretty silly. Way more than WoW has, as long as we're bringing Warcraft up. The only difference in the games is that there's absolutely no reason to do GW2's grinds. There's no challenging content at the end to progress through, no competitive PvE elements, nothing.

So yeah, comments like yours just make no sense.

Couldn't agree with you more, I'm struggling to see the point spending days endlessly farming explorer modes, like you said theres no reason to grind this gear... with no Higher PvE content to aim towards.

[Razeo]

What most ignoramuses call "skinner's box" is essentially a method of associating rewards with work done.

GW2 employs the EXACT SAME METHOD. The only difference is that it implements it horribly, resulting in so much grind that any pleasure gained from accomplishing things is greatly diminished by the sheer amounts of soul-crushing grinding required for it.

So your statement makes no sense whatsoever. It would if GW2 didn't employ the exact same method. But it does. The threadmill is there. In force.

I guess thinking outside the box is a rarity in the MMo audience these days. If the so called "treadmill" is the only thing in your mind when you login to a game, then you picked up the wrong game. When I go for 100% Map completion in-game or participate in WvW, gear isn't the first thing on my mind. It's really quite sad that modern MMo gamers these days have lost touch with that side of the genre.

---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 06:23 PM ----------

Couldn't agree with you more, I'm struggling to see the point spending days endlessly farming explorer modes, like you said theres no reason to grind this gear... with no Higher PvE content to aim towards.

I rest my case

[Cthulhu 2020]

What people who are hating on the GW2 grind seem to fail to realize is that the core mechanic of every MMO is the grind or replayability. Successful MMOs do one of three things:

1. Make grinding enjoyable
2. Disguise the grinding so you don't think you're grinding when you actually are
3. Appeal to the crowd that likes the monotonous grind

Unless you can pump out new content at an unprecedented rate, a grind is almost always necessary to retain players.

An MMO without a grind is just a social game that people play merely for interaction with other players.

It was a pretty bold move for them to claim that there wasn't going to be a grind (and I'm sure I'm going to have my post jumped all over for this next part...) but I'm pretty sure they meant they were removing the traditional grind that most MMOs have to get into the end game that you enjoy. That you can jump right in at any point and start working for rewards you want right from level 2. Karma, gold, and other things can all be worked on right out of the gate without having to hit cap first.

[Cthulhu 2020]

There IS no endgame.

I find it funny that WoW has made "End game" synonymous with raiding to the point that people don't think a game has it unless it has raiding.

Ever played Skyrim? Once you get the best armor, what else is there to do in the game? Explore, quests? Pft, no reason, you already have full Draedic armor! Time to quit playing!

MMOs used to be about the exploration, discovery, and just doing things for the sake of doing them. How did WoW breed a culture of the raid gear treadmill that makes people think a game NEEDS it? Oh right, because people need a way to measure their epeens.

[Razeo]

The flaw here is that you can do all that other stuff in other MMO's, too.

People keep talking as if GW2 just revolutionized things. You don't have to grind! You can roam the world and do quests! You can PvP! Wow! Except that stuff isn't new. Some of the presentation is new, but that's mostly it.

First off, no one (Anet or the regulars on these subforums atleast.) claimed that GW2 revolutionized anything. I actually find it funny how often people toss this term around but feel free to prove me wrong by quoting someone. And 2nd, in reply to your comment I simply like the way designed their PvE and PvP in comparison to other games. It's just like saying I prefer TF2's style of FPS when compared to CoD's, I know totally foreign concept right?!

/sarcasm right back at ya

You don't HAVE to grind, sure. Because there's no content to bother grinding for. But the grind is still there, and it's a HUGE grind for some items and sets.

Already commented on this from previous posts, I hate repeating myself.

You can roam the world and do quests? Yay, you can do that as far back as EverQuest. Is GW2's presentation a lot better? Yes. But don't act like just roaming around and doing quests is some revolutionary new thing that you couldn't do in other games.

A game doesn't need to be revolutionary to have fun, again though with the revolutionary jaz. O_o

PvP? Yeah, c'mon. Every game has PvP. WvW is a neat idea, but there's barely any actual PvP involved.

Simply not your cup of tea I guess, which is understandable. I can only see former DAoC, WAR and SB players enjoying this aspect of the game for the most part.

It's just really frustrating to hear these sound bites about "No grinding!" and "You can do stuff other than raid!!" as if they're these amazing selling points. They're really carefully worded marketing tricks.

Welcome to the business world? You act as if Anet is the first company to ever do this. Vanilla WoW was suppose to have hero classes right off the bat but that was taken out just weeks before launch. Hell, my original instruction booklet had a description of each hero class.

[Theendgamelv3]

I find it funny that WoW has made "End game" synonymous with raiding to the point that people don't think a game has it unless it has raiding.

Ever played Skyrim? Once you get the best armor, what else is there to do in the game? Explore, quests? Pft, no reason, you already have full Draedic armor! Time to quit playing!

MMOs used to be about the exploration, discovery, and just doing things for the sake of doing them. How did WoW breed a culture of the raid gear treadmill that makes people think a game NEEDS it? Oh right, because people need a way to measure their epeens.

What if you have 100% map completion and completed the personal storyline. What is left to explore or discover? So what if you have the armor you want, did all the map and did all the explorable dungeons? Just pvp? Yea you can roll another alt to do see some of the other scenarios I guess, but it sucks for your main who has basically everything you want on it and mainly just have pvp left.

[Razeo]

I find it funny that WoW has made "End game" synonymous with raiding to the point that people don't think a game has it unless it has raiding.

Ever played Skyrim? Once you get the best armor, what else is there to do in the game? Explore, quests? Pft, no reason, you already have full Draedic armor! Time to quit playing!

MMOs used to be about the exploration, discovery, and just doing things for the sake of doing them. How did WoW breed a culture of the raid gear treadmill that makes people think a game NEEDS it? Oh right, because people need a way to measure their epeens.

Here's a more efficient way of answering your question:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box

[Razeo]

What if you have 100% map completion and completed the personal storyline. What is left to explore or discover? So what if you have the armor you want, did all the map and did all the explorable dungeons? Just pvp? Yea you can roll another alt to do see some of the other scenarios I guess, but it sucks for your main who has basically everything you want on it and mainly just have pvp left.

MMo companies usually have do these little things called "patches".

---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 06:56 PM ----------

I use the term because that's how people make it sound when they say that they can "Roam around and quest" in GW2 but then make it sound like that's a feature unique only to GW2.



Actually I played DAoC and Shadowbane. WvW just doesn't encourage enough actual PvP though, the focus is very siege-oriented.



Oh, I agree. It's just that they get chanted so much and it drives me nuts because it's really, really, really misleading.



I wish I knew how many times I'd have to repeat that it's not about gear, grinding, raiding or e-peens before people stop referencing the skinner box stuff. =/

Then i'm sorry, the game is simply not for you.

[Theendgamelv3]

MMo companies usually have do these little things called "patches".

---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 06:56 PM ----------



Then i'm sorry, the game is simply not for you.

Guild Wars 2 has a content patch already? Where is this patch?

[mishal]

What endgame?

[Dazzy]

This is coming from a guy that had a boner every time I logged in. Once I hit 80, nearing map completion I'm getting really bored with the game. I thought the explorable modes were going to keep me busy for quite some time. But they aren't even hard, just annoying, buggy and sometimes longer than they should be. There is no real reward to keep running them other than the 20 (or 30 for daily) tokens. And having to run them over 60 times just to get the full set kind of sucks. It's right in your face grind when it comes to gear. Either farming karma or farming dungeons. DE's are becoming repetitive as well, and Orr is a zergfest. I have never had that much fun leveling up before, but now that I'm 80..everything is quite ehh.
Speaking of map completion, it becomes a bit expensive since the waypoint prices dont scale down for lower levels. Wayy too overpriced imo, considering gold isn't that easy to come by. A shitty goldsink.

Also I'm not much of a pvper, I love pve. The pvp is alright but it's not really my thing. It's kind of disappointing considering Anet said this game was going to be based around not only pvp like GW1, but pve heavy as well. Seems like the pvp is where the focus is at level 80.


I believe Anet should really take a long hard look at their current pve model. Dungeon wise. Fix those bugs and maybe change a few things around, how many tokens needed for gear. Or the time it takes to do certain dungeons like Arah. As of right now The citadel of flame seems to be the welfare dungeon. 15-20 mins for a full run. Things are just..out of whack so it seems.

Anyone else have any thoughts, agree or disagree with me? Why or why not.
Please explain, don't just say yes or no. Would like to have a nice discussion about this.

Completely agree, which is why I didn't get heavily into it. In fact your post could have been copy/pasted from several of mine while the game was in beta. I did buy it like a dumbass just to play with guildies, even knowing full well it offered nothing after the leveling process was over. Meh, I've wasted 60 bucks in worse ways.

[Fencers]

First off, no one (Anet or the regulars on these subforums atleast.) claimed that GW2 revolutionized anything. I actually find it funny how often people toss this term around but feel free to prove me wrong by quoting someone.

There are plenty of post in this sub-forum from users as such. But that's not really a big deal. Pretty common of any game truthfully.

That being said... Anet do claim Guild Wars 2 is a revolution. They advertise it as such indirectly and directly. There is the "Join the MMO revolution!" banner ad on sites and the live action trailer w/ that message.

I understand the point you are driving at. This is fine. However, Anet have claimed the game is revolutionary. Facts, regardless.

[Cthulhu 2020]

This is why these discussions are impossible. Some people just want to be intentionally obtuse about it and be smart-alecks by constantly comparing every comment to WoW in an insulting or sarcastic fashion.

Nowhere did I say that endgame HAD to be raiding. Hell, I wrote a huge post about the sPvE idea and probably repeated 10 times "THIS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE RAIDING" just because of people like you that can't have a simple discussion on the topic without falling back to, "LOL GO BACK TO WOW SKINNER BOX RAIDER LOLOL"

An expectation of a robust, challenging content system isn't unreasonable. As it is, you can see basically everything the game has to offer in very short order and without being challenged very much at all and then all that's left is a massive grind for gear. Even lore-related "big bad" bosses just fall over from looking at them half the time. =/



Again, how many times do people need to repeat that IT DOESNT NEED TO BE ABOUT THE DAMN GEAR, ITS THE CONTENT? People want to encounter big, intimidating opponents like the dragons and such that A.Net clearly put a lot of work into designing, but actually be challenged by them. Not just have them all fall over in 10 seconds when the whole zone zergs it.

For that matter, in a game where the entire endgame system revolves around collecting cosmetic gear to show off, your E-Peen comment is sure funny.

Anyway, these discussions are pointless. It's like talking to a bunch of cult members.

Because the majority of the people who have a problem with this game state that they have no end game or gear treadmill to keep them playing. Not EVERYONE has said it needs raiding, but that seems to be a common theme. Raiding seems to be the only thing a lot of people are interested in, thus my post. Just because you aren't arguing about raiding doesn't mean it isn't extremely common.

[Deleted]

There are plenty of post in this sub-forum from users as such. But that's not really a big deal. Pretty common of any game truthfully.

That being said... Anet do claim Guild Wars 2 is a revolution. They advertise it as such indirectly and directly. There is the "Join the MMO revolution!" banner ad on sites and the live action trailer w/ that message.

I understand the point you are driving at. This is fine. However, Anet have claimed the game is revolutionary. Facts, regardless.

Aye, I never had problems with people liking GW2. I have problems with people claiming it's something we never saw before...wich it is far from. There are plenty of MMORPG's that I liked, Rift, Tera and Aion for example. They offer the same content that Blizz does, the only reason I stick with WoW is because I already progressed so far on WoW. If have to pick out of 5 games wich all offer the same thing in a different theme, than I'd just pick the game I started with first...or the theme is appealing to me that I can neglect my progress on the other game (unlikely).

I've yet to see any "real" new MMORPG that brings something so special that I'd stop playing the older ones over...and with the state of game design at this point I'm guessing we won't see anything for the next 10-20 years.

Baseline: Theres nothing wrong with people speaking out of how and why they like a new game, just don't go around spreading bullshit about how it's original and groundbreaking when it's not. Theres Nothing wrong with more of the same, some grow tired of the old and some don't.

[Razeo]

Guild Wars 2 has a content patch already? Where is this patch?

I'm simply saying once you complete ALL the content, which should be awhile from now for the average gamer. Unless of course you powered through it all then you'll just have to wait.

[DrakeWurrum]

Guild Wars 2 has a content patch already? Where is this patch?

What content patch? Things can be added to the game without them even telling us.

[Deleted]

"Old MMO Style:" Grind xp. Level up. Grind instances. Grind points. Get a bunch of gear. THEN go to the "real" endgame.

"GW2 MMO Style:" Complete tutorial. THEN go to the "real" endgame.

Fixed that for you.

[Lucky_]

Then i'm sorry, the game is simply not for you.

This reminds me of SWTOR.

At launch "Do you want proper end game? This game is not for you."

Now: "Where is everyone?"

[Borfl]

Not really "endgame" but fucking with people in WvW as a mesmer is a lot of fun. Especially in the jumping puzzles.

When I'm not doing that I'm generally just farming and playing the TP which gets horribly boring, the only thing exciting is raking in the gold.

SPvP I haven't done at all, I don't really have anything short term to work towards, and I don't have as much fun playing alone than I do with friends, though I doubt I'll be able to convince them to join since they're altaholics.

Dungeons so far are pretty boring. To be honest I wasn't really interested in dungeons to begin with, I'd just like to clear all the modes, MAYBE farm TA for the Nightmare Greatsword, though I haven't really done that many other than story/exp AC, story CM, and story SF. From my limited experience, most dungeons just didn't seem involved other than AC the fights they seem to just be simple fights that just drag on forever.

I still have quite a few things to work towards. Mainly getting different exotic sets, two PVE for power/crit and condition, one WvW set with tougness, and maybe work towards getting the legendary sword Bolt.

[Trix]

Apart from stupidly long grinds, there is no end game. I knew the end game was bad before buying the game though, so I got exactly what I expected.

I was hoping to enjoy alt levelling more, but I'm getting rather bored on my 2nd character.