Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Raiju]

What if instead of allowing men the option to opt-out, the state requires the woman to demonstrate her need for child support before she can apply for it? That way the child gets what it needs in the direst of circumstances, and the man isn't required to pay for a child that doesn't need additional support.

I suggested that earlier and it got completely ignored by the feminist extremists actually arguing here.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I suggested that earlier and it got completely ignored by the feminist extremists actually arguing here.

Men are just sperm donors after all. Our thoughts and opinions don't matter at all, nor does our well being. Our arguments, no matter how well written and thought out don't matter. Especially with such great counter points like 'This argument is dumb, because I watch the news"

[skrump]

What if instead of allowing men the option to opt-out, the state requires the woman to demonstrate her need for child support before she can apply for it? That way the child gets what it needs in the direst of circumstances, and the man isn't required to pay for a child that doesn't need additional support.

Because the man would still have to flip the bill for a decision made by a women that directly impacted his life in a negative manner without taking into account just what a negative impact that decision would make on our lives.

And what's even worse many of those times that choice is forced on them due to their religious/political surroundings.

A male being able to Opt out would in no way reduce a women's rights it would only cause her to put her own personal well-being in a higher perspective when it came time to discuss the potential of abortion.

I mean if you actually require some form of financial aid in order to raise a kid, you probably shouldn't have the dam kid.
I dunno, it might just be me but I hate to see bitches that refuse to take responsibility for their actions slamming my entire gender for what is essentially the womens own bad decision making skills.

I mean first you found a guy and never discussed the possability of unplanned child birth or lacked to do your part in taking the proper precautions to avoid it.

You then proceed to force him into responsibility for a consequence that could of been avoided should you have opted to do so

Then you have the gull to call him a sexist pig because he is unwilling to financially support a kid that you had the option of not having yet he had no say in the matter.

And you think you are somehow a better person for bringing a kid who's own father didn't want it into this world then preceding to raise it in an unbalanced single parent household, all the while you had the option to put an end to it before the child was born.

Got to be a pretty selfish bitch to think your moral conundrum with abortion is more important than someone else ability to survive financially.

[Deleted]

Men are just sperm donors after all. Our thoughts and opinions don't matter at all, nor does our well being. Our arguments, no matter how well written and thought out don't matter. Especially with such great counter points like 'This argument is dumb, because I watch the news"

Funny thing is more in regards to what OP linked about the study is that I just read a few days a study that stated that finishing inside the woman made her more happy. Guess the study are "guiding" us (men) to just "suck it up" and be prepared for 0 rights when it comes to the whole subject. Ofc that's unless you have a very good and healty relationship, but as a single guy it almost feels like you need to watch your back each time you meet a woman.

And that's being said as regular single guy, not even a lady chaser in any way. Add on top of that living in a fucked up country, where very very rare when I go to a club/bar I often have to check the girl's ID to make sure she is legal. It's just sad.

[Destruktion]

Because the man would still have to flip the bill for a decision made by a women that directly impacted his life in a negative manner without taking into account just what a negative impact that decision would make on our lives.

And what's even worse many of those times that choice is forced on them due to their religious/political surroundings.

A male being able to Opt out would in no way reduce a women's rights it would only cause her to put her own personal well-being in a higher perspective when it came time to discuss the potential of abortion.

I mean if you actually require some form of financial aid in order to raise a kid, you probably shouldn't have the dam kid.
I dunno, it might just be me but I hate to see bitches that refuse to take responsibility for their actions slamming my entire gender for what is essentially the womens own bad decision making skills.

I mean first you found a guy and never discussed the possability of unplanned child birth or lacked to do your part in taking the proper precautions to avoid it.

You then proceed to force him into responsibility for a consequence that could of been avoided should you have opted to do so

Then you have the gull to call him a sexist pig because he is unwilling to financially support a kid that you had the option of not having yet he had no say in the matter.

And you think you are somehow a better person for bringing a kid who's own father didn't want it into this world then preceding to raise it in an unbalanced single parent household, all the while you had the option to put an end to it before the child was born.

Got to be a pretty selfish bitch to think your moral conundrum with abortion is more important than someone else ability to survive financially.

Think of the child. The child needs care one way or another.

[skrump]

Men are just sperm donors after all. Our thoughts and opinions don't matter at all, nor does our well being. Our arguments, no matter how well written and thought out don't matter. Especially with such great counter points like 'This argument is dumb, because I watch the news"

Kind of makes you wonder if our Ancestors were justified in denying them rights huh.
We went from being completely dominant 100 years ago to being nothing more than sperm donating cash cows.

Yet were somehow the evil ones, even though were among the generations that allowed the balance to shift so dramatically.
I mean really if all men were as evil as women think we are they would all be hiding in corners nursing black eye's.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 09:56 AM ----------

Think of the child. The child needs care one way or another.

The Child wouldn't of needed anything is the point that I am trying to make

An aborted fetus never has to endure any of the hardships of life nor does the person who saved it from that hardship.
People that question their ability to parent thus choose to abort are F"ing hero's in my personal opinion.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Think of the child. The child needs care one way or another.

The problem is, the males are at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to giving them rights and liberties. It seems the pecking order is:

1)Adult Females
2)Children
3)Adult Males

This is "equality"? No, the same rights and liberties are not afford to men. No, a woman should not have say of the rest of a mans life, or his monetary livelihood just because they BOTH took the risk.

This is precisely why child support laws came around in the first place. Women were home makers and child rearers. When the man wanted a divorce, it was perfectly acceptable for the man to get a new start, while dumping all the cares and responsibilities onto the woman. So they made laws to protect this, because essentially it was the opposite happening, that we bring up in these hypotheticals. Men were making a decision and the women had no choice at all in the matter and had to suck it up.

This is why I think we as men should be afforded the same type of protection and liberties. I understand children are important and should be cared for. But if a man wants to opt out do to life/money issues, the woman would have plenty of time/information on the subject. She knows her own financial and life situations. If she still wants to keep and raise a child, thats fine.

I in no way hate women or single mothers. I have a lot of respect for them. This issn;t about "getting back at those evil women"... this is about equality and liberty for all.

[sulfuric]

it should be as simple as if two people disagree on wanting the child, the one who wants it gets to pay for it. If the woman doesn't want it and the man does, well sad day for him I guess.

[Destruktion]

The Child wouldn't of needed anything is the point that I am trying to make

An aborted fetus never has to endure any of the hardships of life nor does the person who saved it from that hardship.
People that question their ability to parent thus choose to abort are F"ing hero's in my personal opinion.

That's assuming the woman gets an abortion.
What if she's financially stable when she decides to have the child, but encounters extreme financial hardship afterwards?
What if she mistakenly thinks during pregnancy that she will be able to financially support the child, but is unable to?
We need a safety net for this sort of thing.

This is why I think we as men should be afforded the same type of protection and liberties. I understand children are important and should be cared for. But if a man wants to opt out do to life/money issues, the woman would have plenty of time/information on the subject. She knows her own financial and life situations. If she still wants to keep and raise a child, thats fine.

I in no way hate women or single mothers. I have a lot of respect for them. This issn;t about "getting back at those evil women"... this is about equality and liberty for all.

Which is why I think a middle ground needs to be reached. Only if a woman desperately needs child support will she receive it (ideally). The right of the child to a relatively stable life, I think, trumps the man's desire to not be involved, barring financial difficulties of the man.

[Raiju]

it should be as simple as if two people disagree on wanting the child, the one who wants it gets to pay for it. If the woman doesn't want it and the man does, well sad day for him I guess.

I think us men can cope with that though. It would be unreasonable to expect a woman to carry a baby she doesn't want to have just for your own gain.

But then I'm just a sperm donor so what do I know.

Right now a woman can have that baby and suddenly for the womans decision making another person has to pay the price. It's not even a buffer against everyone - it's a single person who likely will barely be able to afford rent after the woman is done taking the ridiculous amounts of money they get in England.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

[QUOTE=Lolercaust;19905273]

That's assuming the woman gets an abortion.
What if she's financially stable when she decides to have the child, but encounters extreme financial hardship afterwards?
What if she mistakenly thinks during pregnancy that she will be able to financially support the child, but is unable to?
We need a safety net for this sort of thing.

She still made an informed decision, with abortion always being available, as is adoption. What if I buy a house, but later can't pay? In some cases I have to suck it up, in others, the government helps or I get a second job.

I'm not against helping someone that was fine for awhile, and then needs help. (as a taxpayer)

Which is why I think a middle ground needs to be reached. Only if a woman desperately needs child support will she receive it (ideally). The right of the child to a relatively stable life, I think, trumps the man's desire to not be involved, barring financial difficulties of the man.

Again, you are giving the choice of what happens to the man, to another person, and that isn't right in my book. Abortion is totally legal. In some states, it doesn't matter your age, or if you have parental consent, or if you even live in that state. The government now pays for them to my understanding. If a woman gets knocked up on accident, and is too poor to afford a child, why would she bring a baby into this world? Morals? Her morals trump another persons financial liberty and decide the fate of that person? I would have to get a second job to pay for her moral decision? Or maybe she just really wants a baby. So her desire for a baby (which are adoptable) overrides a mans financial liberty?

Again, these laws and decisions are purely based on gender. If two people take a risk, why shouldn't both genders be allowed a way to decide and protect themselves?

It really does make you feel like a giant ballsack/wallet.

[Destruktion]

She still made an informed decision, with abortion always being available, as is adoption. What if I buy a house, but later can't pay? In some cases I have to suck it up, in others, the government helps or I get a second job.

I'm not against helping someone that was fine for awhile, and then needs help. (as a taxpayer)

A house is a house. A child is a life.

Again, you are giving the choice of what happens to the man, to another person, and that isn't right in my book. Abortion is totally legal. In some states, it doesn't matter your age, or if you have parental consent, or if you even live in that state. The government now pays for them to my understanding. If a woman gets knocked up on accident, and is too poor to afford a child, why would she bring a baby into this world? Morals? Her morals trump another persons financial liberty and decide the fate of that person? I would have to get a second job to pay for her moral decision? Or maybe she just really wants a baby. So her desire for a baby (which are adoptable) overrides a mans financial liberty?

Again, these laws and decisions are purely based on gender. If two people take a risk, why shouldn't both genders be allowed a way to decide and protect themselves?

It really does make you feel like a giant ballsack/wallet.

Why is an opt-out for the man the best way to accomplish this?

[Raiju]

Why is an opt-out for the man the best way to accomplish this?

Because it's hella easier to get someone to fold on than to imply that people opt-in

[Cybran]

I'm sorry even as a male. This mens rights seems like a bad bad horrible joke only taken seriously among certain posters the same way some people believe that Obama will be thrown out of office. You are not talking about males right. You are talking about opression of female rights. Its just in bad bad taste. If you want to stop advocating for male rights I sincerely do not think they will even notice you stopped.

Why is severing ties with a child you wan't aborted "opression of female rights"? Forcing men to support children and women they wan't nothing to do with is the real opression.

[Spectral]

Forcing men to support children and women they wan't nothing to do with is the real opression.

"I have to pay for my kids rather than pawning the costs off on society. Help, help, I'm being repressed!".

[Deleted]

"I have to pay for my kids rather than pawning the costs off on society. Help, help, I'm being repressed!".

Remember that the premisse is that the woman tricked your into parenthood.

[DeeEss]

Sure. Here's an article where it's mentioned.

The quote is as follows: "If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring a pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support ... autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice."

Thank you, that's interesting.

[Deleted]

The topic a bunch of males discussing a females rights is quite frankly a little disgusting to me. It reminds me when the GOP had an all male member for the topic of Birth Control.

This has to be a fucking joke?

We're discussing the rights of men. No one is discussing the rights of women here. Pretty much everyone here agrees that women get to decide what they do with their bodies.

The subject of discussion pertains to finances surrounding child support.


What is disgusting is the knee-jerk feminism that so many people on the internet show symptoms of. "Let's not look if the argument is valid, they're saying something bad about women so it must be mysogyny, fucking male swines".

[Hyve]

Cool. So murder is perfectly justified.

I fail to see how murder is associated with a lack of rights.

[Deleted]

That's assuming the woman gets an abortion.
What if she's financially stable when she decides to have the child, but encounters extreme financial hardship afterwards?
What if she mistakenly thinks during pregnancy that she will be able to financially support the child, but is unable to?
We need a safety net for this sort of thing.

The government is the safety net in these situations (as well as any private charities). This is the case also if one of the parents die and the remaining parent struggles to raise the kid or if two parents somehow have bad luck and can't support the kid.

The child support should not come from the male in cases where he has given up all rights to the kid well in advance.