Is Guild Wars 2 still worth getting (i.e Player Activity Still Good?)

[Deleted]

You mean raiding? Because I have no idea what you mean, with the end game crap.

Appearantly all mmo's should have endgame content thats all about getting 10-40 people together to whack on a couple off bosses for 4 hours a day only to do it again the next week. Bo-ring.

Raiding in GW2, no thanks, not necesary as long as they keep the small group and world content flowing.

[Drakhar]

I fail to see how it lacks endgame content...

Yeah the game has no lack of endgame content... people just see the lack of the one particular type of endgame content they are looking for. Hint: it begins with the letter "R" and rhymes with "aiding."

Anecdotal, but activity is higher now than it was for the past 3 months or so, at least on Jade Quarry. Could be Team Bandwagon jumping to JQ before paid transfers began though.

[Lane]

At this point I honestly can't tell if the people requesting raiding actually enjoy that type of gameplay or if they're just so conditioned by other games to believe there is no other end game besides raiding so when it doesn't exist they don't know what to do with themselves.

[Durzlla]

At this point I honestly can't tell if the people requesting raiding actually enjoy that type of gameplay or if they're just so conditioned by other games to believe there is no other end game besides raiding so when it doesn't exist they don't know what to do with themselves.

I personally think it's the second.

[Fencers]

Maybe a little from column A and a little from column B, Lane.

Most play games as a vehicle for entertainment. Naturally setting expectation along the lines of what they enjoy and what is familiar.

For goodness sake, you get people asking if there are "raids" in ARPG games such as Diablo and Path of Exile. Or referring to missions as quests in single player games and so on.

We are creatures of comfort and habit.

[Valeron]

For goodness sake, you get people asking if there are "raids" in ARPG games such as Diablo and Path of Exile.

That blew my mind when I saw someone ask that in the PoE thread.

[jaakkeli]

At this point I honestly can't tell if the people requesting raiding actually enjoy that type of gameplay or if they're just so conditioned by other games to believe there is no other end game besides raiding so when it doesn't exist they don't know what to do with themselves.

Well the whole point is that other games have a few things you do before raiding (dungeons, gearing up with dailies, gold and token grinds etc) and then you raid while GW2 has those same few things you do before raiding and then no raids or anything else. It's kind of silly how we get serial replies from people saying "OMG, can't you imagine end game without raiding?" and then none actually telling us what the supposed non-raiding end game is supposed to be. I can imagine an end game without raiding but I don't see any in GW2.

Dungeons? The game doesn't have any more dungeons than most MMOs. Usually once you're done with dungeons you go raid. What do you do in GW2 once you've done the dungeons?

PvP? There's only a few game modes, PvP content is just very lacking compared to even totally non-PvP focused MMOs like SWToR. Unless you really fall in love with WvWvW or something you get bored of the PvP quickly.

Grind legendaries? Not interested.

I love the game but I'm not really playing anymore and it's because the limited PvP got boring quick and there isn't any end game PvE besides grinding gear. That is kind of ironic given that this was supposed to be the game that shows us all how it's possible to make an MMO based on something other than gear grind...

[Valeron]

I love the game but I'm not really playing anymore and it's because the limited PvP got boring quick and there isn't any end game PvE besides grinding gear. That is kind of ironic given that this was supposed to be the game that shows us all how it's possible to make an MMO based on something other than gear grind...

do you really think there is a gear grind here? I have 5 level 80's and all of them have maximum armor and weapons. And I don't even play all that much.

[jaakkeli]

do you really think there is a gear grind here? I have 5 level 80's and all of them have maximum armor and weapons. And I don't even play all that much.

I have 3 80s with maxed gear and it indeed was no grind at all. But there's nothing to do with the characters now. I've done the dungeons, I played PvP till I got bored (which was quicker than most MMOs because of the very limited game modes compared to most releases). When I ask people what is there to do now the most common answer is get a legendary or get some cosmetic gear and that's a grind.

You exhaust the level 80 content in this game very quickly and then there's nothing to do besides grind cosmetic stuff.

[Rukh]

Well the whole point is that other games have a few things you do before raiding (dungeons, gearing up with dailies, gold and token grinds etc) and then you raid while GW2 has those same few things you do before raiding and then no raids or anything else. It's kind of silly how we get serial replies from people saying "OMG, can't you imagine end game without raiding?" and then none actually telling us what the supposed non-raiding end game is supposed to be. I can imagine an end game without raiding but I don't see any in GW2.


Dungeons? The game doesn't have any more dungeons than most MMOs. Usually once you're done with dungeons you go raid. What do you do in GW2 once you've done the dungeons?

I think this is exactly what people are saying. You somehow assume dungeons need to be precursor content to the actual raiding content. Doesn't work that way. Dungeons are endgame. Do the story, then do explorable modes.

PvP? There's only a few game modes, PvP content is just very lacking compared to even totally non-PvP focused MMOs like SWToR. Unless you really fall in love with WvWvW or something you get bored of the PvP quickly.

It has more types of PvP than WoW. How is it lacking?

Grind legendaries? Not interested.

Me either but just because you don't personally want to do it doesn't mean it's not endgame content.

I love the game but I'm not really playing anymore and it's because the limited PvP got boring quick and there isn't any end game PvE besides grinding gear. That is kind of ironic given that this was supposed to be the game that shows us all how it's possible to make an MMO based on something other than gear grind...

Give yourself some goals. get ascended stuff from fractals, get good at pvp, help your server in wvw, do jumping puzzles, explore for achieves and for interesting areas to see. Become rich, do things you want to do.

Right now my goal is to upgrade my ascended back to an ascended-er back. Going to take a bit, 250 ectos aint cheap to come by.

[Valeron]

Well I suppose but this isn't a game that is designed to keep you going and going and going like the big mmo does. It was designed for the fact that people will take extended breaks and then come back. The developers have stated this. I'm not really blaming you for thinking this, as I'd love to spend all of my time in this wonderfully crafted world, but it doesn't have endless content.

I will say that this is the only mmo I play nowadays, and I probably only play 4 days a week at most. All of those other mmos that are designed to keep you trudging on? I haven't played one in a long while and most likely never will again.

[Fencers]

I believe it was Colin like 3 years ago at Gamescom who said they were okay with players only playing GW2, playing GW2 and WOW [he mentioned WOW specifically] or putting the game down for a few months.

That was consistent with the first 4 Guild Wars games and is so far true in design & practice of the sequel.


Personally speaking, not that it matters, but I think that is the single greatest strength of the franchise; just pick up and play whenever/however you feel like.

[Lane]

Well the whole point is that other games have a few things you do before raiding (dungeons, gearing up with dailies, gold and token grinds etc) and then you raid while GW2 has those same few things you do before raiding and then no raids or anything else. It's kind of silly how we get serial replies from people saying "OMG, can't you imagine end game without raiding?" and then none actually telling us what the supposed non-raiding end game is supposed to be. I can imagine an end game without raiding but I don't see any in GW2.

I will say that GW2 hasn't done as much as they could have done (no game has, IMO), but it's enough that I'm not bored yet.

As far as raiding is concerned, it has felt 'forced' to me in other MMOs. The times I have raided was because I felt like I had to because there was literally no other way to progress my character. I think that any game where gear ultimately becomes the only way to improve yourself is inherently flawed, but most of them certainly seem to follow that formula.

It's also going to depend on play style. Many times when I outline what I find enjoyable in an MMO others will say it's boring or pointless. I suppose I can't argue because I've always found raiding boring (and ultimately pointless when a new tier of gear is released a few months later).

I will say that I've enjoyed GW2's downleveling and repeatable events. There have been many times in games like WoW or Rift I wished I could go back and do old content without having to make a new alt and GW2 allows for that.

[Fencers]

I think that any game where gear ultimately becomes the only way to improve yourself is inherently flawed, but most of them certainly seem to follow that formula.

I understand that this is merely your POV, but it couldn't possibly be true in practice. Nor could it be applied as an objective flaw to any real DD/T.

Some games are simply focused on gear-- such as Diablo 2. That is why you play them, the attraction, the bullet point on the box cover. Others are focused on other aspects like story, immersion and whathaveyou.

It just couldn't be true as an objective flaw unless there were some conflicting rules in the acquisition of gear.

What is far more common is players pick the wrong type of game for them. Where a story centric player might have chosen poorly in say, Tera, for their interests. Just an example, because it can apply to anything else. Imagine how silly / illogical it would be if a player looking for a game focused on fast paced strategy battles selected Steel Panthers in lieu of... Starcraft Brood War.

Would it be a flaw that the focus of Steel Panthers is not on fast paced action in the same regard as Starcraft? The two games have different intentions and players different motivation for playing.

To play WOW, Everquest or Rift irrespective of the gear cycles is to play those games incorrectly*. Those games can't even express their basic gameplay in any other way than.. stats.


* Or at least till very recently. Because initially all 3 were fairly narrow games.

[Lane]

To play WOW, Everquest or Rift irrespective of the gear cycles is to play those games incorrectly*. Those games can't even express their basic gameplay in any other way than.. stats.

Well, I loved WoW. I loved almost every zone. I loved the design, I loved the ambiance, I loved the music. I loved the lore, I loved the story, I loved the characters. I loved the gameplay. Maybe a lot of this is nostalgia speaking, but I did end up playing it for 6 years and out of those I raided for maybe a combined total of 1, and that was usually after I felt there was nothing else left to do.

Point being, maybe it was the "wrong" game for me or maybe I did play it "incorrectly", but it still entertained me for a very long time. Something that no other MMO has been able to do since.

[Fencers]

Well, I loved WoW. I loved almost every zone. I loved the design, I loved the ambiance, I loved the music. I loved the lore, I loved the story, I loved the characters. I loved the gameplay. Maybe a lot of this is nostalgia speaking, but I did end up playing it for 6 years and out of those I raided for maybe a combined total of 1, and that was usually after I felt there was nothing else left to do.

Point being, maybe it was the "wrong" game for me or maybe I did play it "incorrectly", but it still entertained me for a very long time. Something that no other MMO has been able to do since.

That's cool and all. One can still have fun in these games despite the core gameplay.

There is no doubt WOW is about the gear though. Like the very first NPC you ever talk to in WOW sets up the ENTIRE model of gameplay for 60 levels. Or whatevver the max level is now. I don't know.

WoW/Rift/EQ are not games designed for you to desire hanging out in Aerie Peak or Gloamwood, just because.

[Lane]

WoW/Rift/EQ are not games designed for you to desire hanging out in Aerie Peak or Gloamwood, just because.

It's a shame, really, and one of the areas where GW2 really shines, IMO. There's no reason to ever return to a zone in WoW (for the most part) and in Rift I believe they removed what little incentive there was, which was only to farm world event drops.

[jaakkeli]

I think this is exactly what people are saying. You somehow assume dungeons need to be precursor content to the actual raiding content. Doesn't work that way. Dungeons are endgame.

No, I don't. The point is that other games don't care if people drop out of dungeons after a short while and play raids instead because the dungeons are just a precursor to raiding. If dungeons are the end game, then you'd expect the dungeons to actually last longer than they do in games where they are only a warm-up for raiding, but they don't really last.

Do the story, then do explorable modes.

Yes, I did that. The dungeons lasted about as long as they do in other MMOs on release but GW2 dungeons aren't a warm-up to the multiplayer end game, they are the only multiplayer end game.

Now, I'm not complaining about this: I do think I got more than my money's worth of entertainment out of this game. It is a good game. But everyone saying that "just because it doesn't have raiding doesn't mean it lacks an end game with staying power" is just deluded. It doesn't have a raiding end game and it doesn't have anything else to take it's place. It's simply not designed for lasting power the same way games like WoW are. It only lasts long if you either play casual enough to consume content really slowly or if you decide to go for some hardcore legendary grind.

It has more types of PvP than WoW. How is it lacking?

WoW has capture the flag maps, point capture maps, vehicle maps (which I hate but I still have to admit that the variety helps avoid repetition boredom while running random bgs), siege maps, hybrid maps and that's just battlegrounds. Then there's arena, dueling, random open world PvP (doesn't happen often anymore, though). sPvP is just one mode over and over and over again, repetition boredom kicks in very fast, and WvWvW either pulls you in or doesn't (didn't do it for me).

[Fencers]

It's a shame, really, and one of the areas where GW2 really shines, IMO. There's no reason to ever return to a zone in WoW (for the most part) and in Rift I believe they removed what little incentive there was, which was only to farm world event drops.

Umhm. I agree about GW2 in this regard. It was true of GW1 as well-- you just played because you enjoyed the experience without any infinite vertical progression. When you hit 20 and had max ranked armor, you were "done". The rest was just whatever you enjoyed doing. For it's own sake.

Now I understand that might not be for everyone, the method GW1 took. Or the sequel to an extent. It's just the same as WOW/EQ/Rift/Tera/Whatever-- they are just different sorts of games. Not inherently flawed because the main gameplay system(s) doesn't synch up 1:1 for everyone out there.

None of this is necessarily directed at you personally. Merely using your post as a launch into the subject here that all games have their own intentions/goals. Those goals are not necessarily "wrong" or flawed, to link back to the part I initially quoted.

GW2 just isn't concerned with instance raiding at this point-- and that's as valid as the games which do have that gameplay system. Could very well be that one has chosen the wrong game if that where their desires are-- be it Guild Wars 2 here or Path of Exile as Doozerjun intimated above.

[Karizee]

No, I don't. The point is that other games don't care if people drop out of dungeons after a short while and play raids instead because the dungeons are just a precursor to raiding. If dungeons are the end game, then you'd expect the dungeons to actually last longer than they do in games where they are only a warm-up for raiding, but they don't really last.



Yes, I did that. The dungeons lasted about as long as they do in other MMOs on release but GW2 dungeons aren't a warm-up to the multiplayer end game, they are the only multiplayer end game.

Now, I'm not complaining about this: I do think I got more than my money's worth of entertainment out of this game. It is a good game. But everyone saying that "just because it doesn't have raiding doesn't mean it lacks an end game with staying power" is just deluded. It doesn't have a raiding end game and it doesn't have anything else to take it's place. It's simply not designed for lasting power the same way games like WoW are. It only lasts long if you either play casual enough to consume content really slowly or if you decide to go for some hardcore legendary grind.



WoW has capture the flag maps, point capture maps, vehicle maps (which I hate but I still have to admit that the variety helps avoid repetition boredom while running random bgs), siege maps, hybrid maps and that's just battlegrounds. Then there's arena, dueling, random open world PvP (doesn't happen often anymore, though). sPvP is just one mode over and over and over again, repetition boredom kicks in very fast, and WvWvW either pulls you in or doesn't (didn't do it for me).

Jaak, while I respect and agree with your opinion that GW2 might not have staying power for a raider, I think you are looking at this solely as a raider. A very important fact you are missing in your analysis is that very very few people raid.

Right now wowprogress shows 37,270 10 man raids and 3,164 25 man raids for a total of 451,800 raiders. Round it up to 500,000. That's 5% of 10 million. So there is indeed a market, a HUGE market for a game like GW2 without raids.