Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

I wrote PvE scripted environment, smartass. Your two examples (chess and SC2) are PvP, not PvE. If you think the RNG and AI of Ragnaros HC is anything near as complex as the AI of a chess computer which sports insane amounts of CPU power then I rest my case. The quick reflexes required in SC2 are unmatched in raiding, the very top end of WoW raiding gets near that level. Add to that the very top end, while not coming near there, is the exception to our discussion which is about median of 25m raid, not only the top end.

[xalenthas]

Blizzards 25 man mistake.

Putting 10 mans in the same instances ...

[Gande]

For all these people stating you can drag people through 25s while in 10s everyone has to be spot on, I wonder how many progressed past MSV heroics while undergeared for it. Or overgeared, for that matter.

[Deleted]

I wrote PvE scripted environment, smartass. Your two examples (chess and SC2) are PvP, not PvE. If you think the RNG and AI of Ragnaros HC is anything near as complex as the AI of a chess computer which sports insane amounts of CPU power then I rest my case.

If you're playing against a computer controlled opponent it's PvE by definition, smartass. Whether it's a chess opponent with chess rules, SC opponent with SC rules, or a WoW boss with WoW rules doesn't change anything. And once again you're failing to grasp the abstract point, which is that merely stating that something is "scripted" says nothing useful about the nature of it, you need to further ask questions like "how much CPU power is being spent on the opponent" etc. The answers to these questions are the important things, not the fact that it's "scripted".

[Deleted]

You need to put the "scripted" comment in the context of WoW. My entire post was about WoW, the entire topic is about WoW, why would that one sentence be something more than that. If I wanted to make a general statement I'd have included a clear context. Your entire last 2 posts smell fishy. Wonder why, maybe it is the rotten proteines of your red herring?

[Deleted]

You need to put the "scripted" comment in the context of WoW. My entire post was about WoW, the entire topic is about WoW, why would that one sentence be something more than that. If I wanted to make a general statement I'd have included a clear context. Your entire last 2 posts smell fishy. Wonder why, maybe it is the rotten proteines of your red herring?

You can never admit that you're wrong, can you? Scripted, even in the context of WoW, does not tell you anything useful. You can make "scripted" encounters within WoW that are practically impossible to defeat due to their complexity or ones that are trivial to beat. The fact that they're "scripted" is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

You can never admit that you're wrong, can you? Scripted, even in the context of WoW, does not tell you anything useful. You can make "scripted" encounters within WoW that are practically impossible to defeat due to their complexity or ones that are trivial to beat. The fact that they're "scripted" is irrelevant.

The fact that they're scripted denotes there's patterns, and in WoW these patterns are NOT that complex. If they were, the WoW servers would take a lot more CPU time. The reason we have difficulty with them is because we have to theorycraft and puzzle on them, and because we must execute them perfect within our rotations. But the latter is something you can practice whereas the only variables are RNG by nature. Which doesn't mean there's no skill like dexterity and memory and anticipation involved, but its much less advanced than high end chess. Or SC2. PvP or PvE.

On the topic of theorycrafting 25m has 2 advantages here: 1) able to theorycraft with others of same class/spec/role, leading to higher output compared to the lone ranger 2) on a grander scale more minds to streamify the tactics.

[Talen]

I gave you an example in the very next sentence which proved your statement false.

Your example was losing the personal sense of progression you personally got going through content the first time because now, before you reach the heady heights of the true content of 25H, you instead to see the content on earlier modes that don't interest you.

This is an example of something you consider a flaw in the model. Conversely, in a world where content remains unexplored for hours after release on the PTR, where content on live has a life expectancy of days before someone finishes it, where you aren't forced to run anything other than HC if you don't want to, the idea that the game causes you to lose that sense of progression you want seems wrong.

EJL

[Deleted]

The fact that they're scripted denotes there's patterns, and in WoW these patterns are NOT that complex. If they were, the WoW servers would take a lot more CPU time.

More complexity for boss fight does not automatically translate to more CPU time, nor does more CPU time translate to "impossible to implement". The point is that using the mechanics that are within WoW you can device boss fights so complex that they will in all likelihood not be beaten by anyone. The fact that it's "scripted" means precisely zero. And you keep bringing up RNG. Do you realize RNG is completely predictable and scripted?

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 04:34 PM ----------

Your example was losing the personal sense of progression you personally got going through content the first time because now, before you reach the heady heights of the true content of 25H, you instead to see the content on earlier modes that don't interest you.

Correct. The new model does not have that sense of progressing into the unknown that TBC model had. For me, and many others, this is a flaw that makes the new system worse. Therefore your earlier statement was factually false.

[Enosh]

Rest Assured if blizzard could go back in time they would never have made the change to make 10s and 25s equal

[citation needed]

Putting 10 mans in the same instances ...

trying to keep the vestige that is called 25 mans alive instead of just taking it behind the shed and shooting it

[Deleted]

Conversely, in a world where content remains unexplored for hours after release on the PTR, where content on live has a life expectancy of days before someone finishes it, where you aren't forced to run anything other than HC if you don't want to, the idea that the game causes you to lose that sense of progression you want seems wrong.

PTR is not part of the game (and shouldn't exist at all, but that's another issue), someone else finishing the content within days does not impact me, and I am literally forced to run normal to unlock HC and in practice forced to run LFR/normal to gear up alts and to kill every boss on normal during HC progress to gear up my main.

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 04:41 PM ----------

trying to keep the vestige that is called 25 mans alive instead of just taking it behind the shed and shooting it

They should take 10 mans there too and make raid instances 5 mans.

[Deleted]

Do you realize RNG is completely predictable

hahahaha brilliant! I just killed my 100 EUR worth keyboard with cola. Thanks a lot, it was worth it!! Here it reads

Wikipedia: A random number generator (RNG) is a computational or physical device designed to generate a sequence of numbers or symbols that lack any pattern, i.e. appear random.

It must be magick.

Since RNG is, in your words "completely predictable" we're going to play a live game on the forum, and you have the honour to be invited in this game! Watch, you will tell me a number between 1 and 100 and then I will tell you if you guessed it correct. I will use this random number generator. Good luck!!

[MoanaLisa]

Rest Assured if blizzard could go back in time they would never have made the change to make 10s and 25s equal as it has decimated realm communities and left many raiders without a raid spot for each guild that downsized or disbanded. It was the biggest mistake they have made. Over 80% less 25 man raiding guilds today then there was in WOLTK.

Total guild numbers have stayed the same, just that over 80% are now 10 man where it used to be 80% over 25 man, u do the math.

The problem is they can't reverse the change because it will do more harm then good.

I'll quote the whole thing to make a couple of very short points:

1. The first paragraph implies that Blizzard wouldn't have made any change if they knew then what they know now. It's important to remember that they didn't make the changes based on whim. They made them to address perceived problems with the balance between 25's and 10's at the time and to stop the practice of guilds running both 25s/10s every week and burning people out. Given an accurate forecast of how things would work out they might not have made the change that they made but it's pretty unlikely that they wouldn't have changed anything.

2. I agree with the part in bold but that's not to say that they can't apply pressures here and there to make 25's more attractive. It will be more gradual although there's always the small possibility that they'll just eventually cave or more likely do something completely unexpected.

[Outofmana]

- Ever since I've begun with 10-mans, I've learnt that you can't be so static when there is only 2 healers most of the time. You have to be way more flexible. You have fewer cooldowns to work with. Depending on who your healing partner is, this may lead to unforeseen difficulties (see, not everyone can make it to every raid, and rosters are deliberately small).

- In 25-man, small mistakes are hidden by the sheer amount of people. Some mistakes may never get noticed even. In 10-mans, you're way more visible. You get called out way more easily when you screwed up. It's one of the things that I hate about 10-mans. You're so visible. You can't blend in with the background. On the other hand, it makes me concentrate harder and put in even more effort (I actually put too much pressure on myself because I am a larger part of the raid and therefore more important now than I used to be).

I never needed more concentration to not make mistakes in 25-man than I need them in 10-man. That's a logic that I can't follow.

Haha yes, these are the two things that made me thoroughly hate 10mans after moving from 40man/25man until Pandaria to 10man. For me, this style of 'raiding' as a healer is totally not relaxing, rather way too stresfull in comparison to 25mans. Loved working as a team of healers in 40/25man and I feel like it's way too individual in 10mans, I would say it is closer to a 5man dungeon for me than an actualy oldskool huge raid. I just don't feel part of a team while healing, it's almost a soloexperience.
So that's why I quit my 10man and applied to a 25man guild which is barely able to stay alive at the moment (being a 25man in these times that's not suprising) and I'll never go 10mans again. As soon as 25man fully dies it'll be game over for me.

[Talen]

That's not completely accurate. Yes, logistics make 25-mans take significantly more skill to run, but that's not all. 25 mans require players that are capable of more personal responsibility and are more skilled. This is because in 25 mans you cannot afford to make as many personal mistakes as in 10 mans.

That depends on a variety of factors. What's more, it's a statement that is largely untrue.

25s do not require more personal responsibility from anyone not involved in leading the raid. Tanks....tank. DPS...DPS. Healers..heal. All react to the same mechanics, healers have more defined healing roles...which can even make 25s easier in some ways.The loss of any one single player results in a correspondingly lower loss of effectiveness. It is easier to hide mistakes, easier to engage in sub-par performance; that is, after all, one reason Blizzard likes the setup - optimisation is so much harder.

Sure, odds are greater SOMEONE will make a mistake somewhere. But then, 25s have greater recovery and reset mechanics, raids are balanced to ensure roughly equal challenge...and this point presumes they are not...and the loss of a single player usually has less impact on a 25s performance than a 10s. Can you point out exceptions to this? Probably....but then, raids aren't designed or balanced for or around the relatively few hardcore players. They are designed for and balanced around the desired and anticipated player group who will run them.

It's very simple, in 10 mans you can afford to make less than one mistake in ten tries

1 Bres

while in 25 mans you can afford to make less than one mistake in 25 tries,

3 Bres's

that requires significantly higher concentration and ability to perform perfectly over and over in 25 mans. Further, in 10 mans it is very easy to track every other player and call things out and control them, this means that you can afford to have players with less personal skill since the raid leader can carry and handhold them in 10 mans.

But is seen as more affordable in 25s where the entire raid can make up for individual shortcomings.

In 25 mans there are simply too many people to track.

Which is why you have assignments and delegations. Many healers I know prefer 25s simply because there are enough players around that they can focus more on their job.

And finally, playing in a group of 25 requires every single person to have more raid awareness and ability to cope with more moving parts, whether it's healing (who is healing whom, how are CDs being rotated?) or movement (where can I find a free spot and how are all these other people going to move?) or unexpected events (will someone else deal with this thing/fuckup or should I deal with it?

Events and decisions also faced by 10s, and once again an argument based upon the presumption that blizzard doesn't balance the game.

These of course only apply when you're playing at the edge of performance and on fights that actually matter. If you're only dicking around in content that you can clear even if half your raid are mouthbreathers, then none of this matters anyway.

And THERE is your main mistake. The raids aren't balanced or designed around the cutting edge. They are balanced and designed for the majority of players.Blizzard COULD design content for the few hundred players you see as having value, but then they'd go bankrupt.

No, you're missing the point, which is that while you can hide with your mistake in 25 mans, you won't be killing the boss. While in 10 man you cannot hide, the mistake will be fixed and the boss will die.

IOW, one man down in a 25 is an auto-wipe.

I think this argument is ridiculous. Even if you are so cutting edge that 1 man down costs enough performance that you wipe, guilds at that level WILL adapt, WILL learn, WILL overcome - regardless of size. Mistakes will be made by all, regardless of skill.

I've seen plenty of 25 man guilds shoot up in progress when they switch to 10 man, and I've seen plenty of 25 man guilds built from merging two 10 man guilds fail to make anywhere near the same progress they used to have as 10 mans.

You mean....they get better performance when they arrange matters so they outskill and outgear an instance, and worse when they join up with players they may not know, may be used to different systems and tactics and may be at a different level of progression.

Rest Assured if blizzard could go back in time they would never have made the change to make 10s and 25s equal as it has decimated realm communities and left many raiders without a raid spot for each guild that downsized or disbanded. It was the biggest mistake they have made. Over 80% less 25 man raiding guilds today then there was in WOLTK.

If they could go back in time we'd have 15 man raids right from the start. If they could only go back to LK? The raid model was changed for a variety of reasons, and it was made despite Blizzard knowing 25s would decrease. The reasons why the raid format was changed wouldn't however have disappeared and they would still need to be addressed.

The current raid model does address them, but in reducing the population available for 25s, it created a situation where the logistics really hurt their creation. With raiders operating to different schedules, split over many servers issues such as recruiting become much, much harder and require much more effort.

I suspect the biggest change to the raid model in this hypothetical would be we'd be in a world where Cata was much better.

As for the bolded part.....what's more important is the number of players using the raid content.

EJL

[Dubalicious]

The least represented raiding format (25 N/H) will only be saved by the most represented raiding format (25 LFR). While a good amount of people despise LFR, I'm very grateful that it's currently saving my raid format of choice. I'm pretty confident that 25's will stay around SIMPLY BECAUSE OF LFR's EXISTENCE.

While I'm grateful that that is the case, it's also quite disappointing/disheartening.

[Travex]

It seems a few groups of people exist here:
1) People that want to raid 10M.
2) People that want to raid 25M.
3) People that want to progress fastest / "easiest" / least stress.
4) People that want the greatest challenge / "epic feel."

If you belong in 1 or 2, no changes to the other raid format should bother you. You will still get to raid the same content at the same pace/skill level you have been.

If you belong to 3, you are raiding 10m, and this should be fine for you as it sates your needs. You are likely complaining because you will feel you must now change something as your current format may not be the quickest way to the finish line. I assure you that this tiny (and monumentally stupid) change Blizz is making to the loot system (This will cause issues with loot council and people passing on non-thunderforged pieces) will not be a boon to 25's strong enough to quell the complications caused by trying to maintain a 25m roster. 10m's will remain the easier/faster route, relax.

If you belong to 4, you are raiding 25m, and your current problem is that your format has been a dying breed for a while now and this upsets you, as you have no intention of doing some watered down 10m raiding experience. Enter: this thread.

Blizzard could incentivise the hell out of 25's, and it would undoubtably become equally as popular as 10's. It is Blizzard's responsibility though, as a company, to make decisions based on Utilitarianism, the Greatest Happiness Principle, or known better in the business world as the $$$ Principle.

The true dilemma then is what can blizzard to do create the greatest happiness in the community, or considering the topic and playerbase surrounding it perhaps it would be more apt to ask "What can Blizzard to do to minimize the loss of subscriptions in it's raiding community while maximizing profits?".

People have been debating incentives a bit too much when the real problem at hand is logistics.

If a subscriber has an interest in raiding 25's, regardless of motives, he or she is almost destined to server transfer at least one character, possibly even over factions, an already hefty or seemingly unnecessary series of purchases to some, on top of their already existing monthy subscription. If a subscriber has an interest in raiding 10's, regardless of motives, he or she likely need look no further than his or her own server, saving him or her all the aforementioned costs/headaches. This is overlooking the fact that this person may not even pass his or her trial period and then be stuck with his or her characters split amongst servers, possibly even factions. To those who would argue that one must typically server transfer to do a cutting edge 10's group also, well he or she is not likely to complain quite as much about the attached costs.

On the other end of things, recruitment itself requires time and effort by those responsible for it within the leadership of a guild. The average 10m can typically recruit and train within its own server with minimal effort. Moreover the number of people said leadership would half to recruit, and thus the corresponding time, is far lower than that of a 25m group. That having been said, a 25m group can just as easily pluck a few people from its own server, the time which it takes to do all this, of course, in addition to all other functions of recruitment, is proportionally larger.

Solutions? A few, but by no means the "correct" or "ideal" one may include:

• Revamp server/faction changes to be free once a month per account, same price for every exchange after that in the same month.

• Allow CRZ raiding to be enabled for a person for a week for 4$ or so. Enough for someone to raid a brief trial period to see if the new guild and he or she is a good fit.

• Earn some sort of additional in-game currency which can be exchanged for services such as server transfer / faction change, in some manner

Maintaining a 10m roster is exceedingly easy by comparison to its 25m kin. A typically 10m group may have up to 14-15 people on hand to choose from, depending who is sick/out/classes-roles necessary for a fight. A 25m typically has ~35+ for the same task. Where the hierarchy of a 10m may be 1 GL, 2 Officers, X Raiders, while that of a 25m may be as much as 1-3 Co-guild leaders, 4-6 Officers, X raiders. There is a great number of additional channels of communication necessary for this larger machine to run as smoothly as that of a 10m. Personally this strikes me as a part of the larger raid group and not a solvable 'problem', should one even deem it such, but it is another logistical issue that 25's do have to overcome and maintain and should be noted.

[Deleted]

It must be magick.

Since RNG is, in your words "completely predictable" we're going to play a live game on the forum, and you have the honour to be invited in this game! Watch, you will tell me a number between 1 and 100 and then I will tell you if you guessed it correct. I will use this random number generator. Good luck!!

And you think the RNG used in WoW is a true RNG like random.org? If you're going to act so smug, you really should know what you're talking about.

[Nadev]

I don't get why people think 25 man is more "epic".

25 people dog piling one troll seems more like bullying.

[Prokne]

It seems a few groups of people exist here:
1) People that want to raid 10M.
2) People that want to raid 25M.
3) People that want to progress fastest / "easiest" / least stress.
4) People that want the greatest challenge / "epic feel."

If you belong in 1 or 2, no changes to the other raid format should bother you. You will still get to raid the same content at the same pace/skill level you have been.

Thats not exactly true. Changes to the raid formats affect the number of people who want to raid a certain size because of #3. This makes it either easier or harder to fill your raid and if you cant fill a raid you wont be doing anything.

The current problem is 25man needs more players but all the people who raid because of #3(who used to do 25s) are probably doing 10mans so there are too many people doing that format. The answer then is to go back to Wrath raid setup(with a few changes) since there will still be plenty of 10man people to make enough 10man raids and more #3 people to fill up the 25man raids.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 05:20 AM ----------

I don't get why people think 25 man is more "epic".

25 people dog piling one troll seems more like bullying.

10 people being able to take down a boss makes the boss seem weak. - argument for 10s being not epic

25 people means a bigger team, stronger bosses, more moving parts, more complexity, more adds, more epic.