Those who Claim People in the Military are Fighting for our Freedom/Defending Us

[Deleted]

Two things. First from my experience there is not a single person that I know who signed up to "defend" the country. They all signed up for the money and all came back worse people. Starting fights for no reason at bars for example. I don't blame them as I think they had PTSS as many of them had to kill people. Many of them were recalled as well and not a single one was happy to go back.
Second the "fake" patriotism in this country is fucking sickening. From people who put an american flag on their bumper or clap for servicemen who now think they are now great patriotic americans. Meanwhile when the troops do return the job rate for them is a joke as well as dealing with PTSS from the shit they have to do.

Two very good points.

I don't hate servicemen, for the most part they're just dumb fucks who sign up to get used by the system. They're not making the world any safer, and as you point out they're likely to be damaged mentally, if not physically.

[Endus]

Well, criteria are important here. If you say "rich" and then say "top of GDP rankings", that doesn't mean much. You might try and make a derogatory post, but you fail to include anything that would discredit the post you quote, or anything that would strengthen yours. In fact, you just ask my home country to see if you can get some flame in one way or another.

If you take the criteria of "rich", most people will not look at gross domestic product. But, go ahead, make unfunded refutes

No, you're talking about nations, so the chief measure that matters is GDP.

Otherwise, you're talking about the wealth of individual citizens, not the wealth of a nation. The US has issues with wealth inequality, in that it's worse than at any time other than immediately before the Great Depression of the '30s. That doesn't mean it's not a fantastically wealthy nation.

With the weapons programs they may or may not have, we know Iran isn't that far from a nuke- and some would claim they are racing towards one. That COULD be a threat, right? Before the invasion, Iraq funded non-state terrorist groups as well. I don't feel that justified the Iraq war, but to claim that these nations are no threat to us is just wrong.

No serious or credible threat, at least.

The USSR during the Cold War, with hundreds of nuclear weapons in high-tech (for the era) ICBMs, THAT was a threat. Iran is desperately trying to achieve 1960s era technology. Same with North Korea. The US has had countermeasures in place against ICBMs for literally decades, and both nations have longer ranges than the USSR had to cope with, giving the US countermeasures greater time to act.

Iran poses the kind of threat to the US that a housecat poses to a grown man. At worst, the little bastard might scratch you up a bit before you throw him into a wall. And even Iran isn't run by suicidal morons who'd risk that counterattack, not unless they thought they could knock the US out in one punch, which ain't gonna happen. Iran is pursuing nuclear technology primarily because Israel having nukes is a basically an open "secret", and Israel wants to wipe Iran off the map as much as Iran wants that of Israel. It has almost nothing to do with the US, except via the US military backing of Israel.

[pucko97]

Do you think oil, resources, or vital areas of a map are worth invading sovereign countries, and killing native inhabitants over? Do you think we have the moral or legal justification to do so? If so, I question your intelligence, and your right to call other people 'idiots.'

Isnt that bound to human nature?

[loganroth51]

The USA isn't rich (and rich is hard to define, on what criteria?). It's actually piss poor. 80% of it's people live under the norm of what is considered the poverty line, and the whole pyramid scheme behind what the americans call "credit rating" is laughable to any adult in possesion another frame of reference (in other words able to see it as something bad).

80% of Americans are living in poverty? Care to provide a source for that? lol

[Seani]

Im pretty sure Volkanik is getting this spiel from a liberal professor of some kind.

[Shadowygoodness]

The amount of "I'm 18 and have the world figured out." in this thread is epic.

This quote right here is so damn true. I read a few pages of this thread; I cannot believe how many pacifists are in here spewing crap about if we just get rid of the military, we'll be fine and dandy. Obviously History needs to start being taught by better teachers. Our (US) school system is really pumping out some idiots these days. Sad part is most of these internet tough guys who have "the world figured out" don't even take the time of day to go vote.

Also OT: Soldiers fight b/c that's what they're paid to do, but consequently they are also fighting to protect our country. The principles are not mutually exclusive. I fear for this country when it has so many of its progeny operating at a critical thinking level of "it's black or it's white"....

[Daerio]

Isnt that bound to human nature?

We outlaw murder, rape and theft within our own country, and then proceed to systematically murder, rape and steal from weaker (third world) countries. Then we wonder why they strap bombs to themselves and claim it's because they, "must hate freedom!"

If your argument is that we shouldn't try to rise above base instincts, you belong back in the stone age.

[Deleted]

They are defending/fighting for the country's interest, Oil.
Never really been about freedom or a war on terror, just Oil.

In my eyes (Im not from US btw) they are just makeing sure that other cant have freedom.. or money.

Yea, i agree with you. Dont you guys think that its aleast odd that the road to freedom has this many gas-stations!?

[Purlina]

Isnt that bound to human nature?

Maybe, but I wouldn't call it protecting freedom.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 05:21 PM ----------

This quote right here is so damn true. I read a few pages of this thread; I cannot believe how many pacifists are in here spewing crap about if we just get rid of the military, we'll be fine and dandy. Obviously History needs to start being taught by better teachers. Our (US) school system is really pumping out some idiots these days. Sad part is most of these internet tough guys who have "the world figured out" don't even take the time of day to go vote.

Also OT: Soldiers fight b/c that's what they're paid to do, but consequently they are also fighting to protect our country. The principles are not mutually exclusive. I fear for this country when it has so many of its progeny operating at a critical thinking level of "it's black or it's white"....

No one said to get rid of our entire military. We said we don't need the military in every country mucking up everything.

Soldiers are paid to fight, that doesn't always mean that they are being paid to fight for "freedom" or to "protect".

[Deleted]

I get what you are saying - like how can soldiers be protecting us when we arent really in any threat - the thing is soldiers are fighting to protect the interests of the west, now that may be oil, or resources or vital areas of a map that put the country in a stronger position, these things might not be seen by you as relevant, but 2,5, 10 years down the line they will be vital

Interests of the west?

Or interests of a small elite?

Politicians have used war to drum up support in elections, and military contractors have made huge sums of money from wars. General officers became famous and got promoted.

You're right that war can be waged to promote our general interests - if the costs are low, and the benefits high. But in practice, most wars benefit only a small number of people, and the rest of us pay the price.

[Scinder]

Two things. First from my experience there is not a single person that I know who signed up to "defend" the country. They all signed up for the money and all came back worse people. Starting fights for no reason at bars for example. I don't blame them as I think they had PTSS as many of them had to kill people. Many of them were recalled as well and not a single one was happy to go back.
Second the "fake" patriotism in this country is fucking sickening. From people who put an american flag on their bumper or clap for servicemen who now think they are now great patriotic americans. Meanwhile when the troops do return the job rate for them is a joke as well as dealing with PTSS from the shit they have to do.

None of your post makes any sense. Basically it's a load of bullsh!t. No one signs up for the money. It doesn't pay that great. Some sign up for the GI Bill but that's their prerogative. At least they had the testicular fortitude to sign up. If that's your experience then you do not know many service members but alas, you fabricated 99% of the BS you're spewing.

Some people do come back with PTSD. It's unfortunate but it happens. Most do not cause trouble. There are some that do snap (look at the recent death of Chris Kyle). It can be terribly traumatic for many to see their close friends die in combat. Something you know nothing about.

Fake patriotism? Step 1. Pack your bags. Step 2. Buy a plane ticket out of the country. Step 3. GTFO.

When I am hiring someone, I always look for former service along with having the proper background because I know exactly what I am getting. I know many others in the corporate world that do the same. There's not enough jobs in this country period, let alone just for former service, but there are plenty of services out there for prior military to find their place back in the civilian sector.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 11:32 AM ----------

80% of Americans are living in poverty? Care to provide a source for that? lol

He doesn't have a source. He's full of bull excrement. Just another hater of the United States. #Feelsgoodman

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 11:34 AM ----------

You're right that war can be waged to promote our general interests - if the costs are low, and the benefits high. But in practice, most wars benefit only a small number of people, and the rest of us pay the price.

Since when does war ever have a "low cost"?

"Rest of us pay the price".

Explain how you "paid the price".

[RoKPaNda]

This quote right here is so damn true. I read a few pages of this thread; I cannot believe how many pacifists are in here spewing crap about if we just get rid of the military, we'll be fine and dandy. Obviously History needs to start being taught by better teachers. Our (US) school system is really pumping out some idiots these days. Sad part is most of these internet tough guys who have "the world figured out" don't even take the time of day to go vote.

Pretty much. Looking at the locations of some of those posters though it appears the issue is bigger than just the US school system. I understand the line of thinking of "I'm 18 and I understand the world and how it works and all the complexities of humanity in general." because I think we've all been there. Really though us older people with world experience shouldn't be surprised, afterall we are posting on a website with a young target audience.

[Deleted]

I've seen this idea knocked around a lot, the idea that if "no-one joins up" then politics would somehow no longer be crap. It seems very peculiar to me, but I come from a country where the military is smaller than in the USA. I'm inclined not to blame servicemen for the shit politicians do to them/make them do. Unless it was genocidal obviously, which I believe you can and should object to. English Army officers refused to starve out Bonnie Prince Charlie's forces during the Jacobite Uprising in spite of being ordered to for example. The problems with insurgencies are very complicated, and often the people at the top are responsible for having a dim and generalized view of the situation, which results in misguided policies. I think politicians should be held more accountable for this, and I'm a little sick and tired of hearing the "blame the soldier" mantra being bandied about on this forum.

[Deleted]

I read a few pages of this thread; I cannot believe how many pacifists are in here spewing crap about if we just get rid of the military, we'll be fine and dandy.

How about some honesty? Nobody has suggested to abolish the military.

However, that does not make it a good idea to go to war every chance you get: It often ends up costly and fruitless.

Of course, there's always some small minority that does profit.

[Deleted]

I agree with the OP.

The reason countries like the US and Britain are targeted by terrorists is because we use troops to interfere in order to protect our interests. Our support for Israel is the main reason that we were targeted by Al Qaeda, and, quite honestly, they have a right to be pissed off. Remember the Ron Paul advert? Wouldn't you be pissed off if the Chinese started running around Texas trying to make it part of Mexico again?

I have zero respect for anybody who willingly chooses to fight and kill for a government. From those soldiers who supported Hitler, to those soldiers (not insurgents) who would kill for the Taliban, to those soldiers in our own armed forces, because once those people who willingly go to war start to fight it is just a matter of time before ordinary people get dragged into it. Like the civilians in Iraq, or the millions of ordinary men who had to fight and die in both world wars.

[Deleted]

Since when does war ever have a "low cost"?

The '90/'91 Gulf War had a low cost: only a few hundred dead, most of the financial costs paid by Saoudi Arabia.

"Rest of us pay the price".

Explain how you "paid the price".

Taxes, national debt and inflation.

War can make a small number of military suppliers immensely rich, while the rest of the country is bled dry.

[Pull My Finger]

What are your thoughts on these people? Every time I hear someone talk about the military and how thankful they are for them for fighting for our freedom and defending our country, I just die a little inside, and seriously want to punch a hole in the wall with my head. No they are not fighting for our freedom, and no they are not defending our country. No country in the Middle East is a serious threat to the United States. Their response: "But we're over there to combat terrorism". Wake the fuck up, terrorists are everywhere. That guy that shot a bunch of kids in that Sandy Hook elementary school, terrorist. That guy that shot all those people in that movie theater in Colorado, terrorist. That guy that shot a crap ton of people in Norway, terrorist. You can not go to a specific part of the world in hopes of combating an idea. It's simply propaganda.

The only time they are defending us is if our country is in danger like when Japan bombed the shit out of Pearl Harbor in WW2.

Fully agree, I can't take those people seriously. Instant clownification. It's like "he died for your sins!" Well tell him to screw off, I didn't ask him to.

Nobody fights for my freedom. Anyone who goes to the army has their own reasons to do so - and it sure ain't got nothing to do with me, brotherly love or heroism. I don't care about those people, go ahead and get yourself killed, or whatever. Don't expect me to glorify that.

And of course you're right, the talk gets even more ridiculous when people try to tell you how they're fighting for your freedom by invading some fucked up country I would never have any business with at all otherwise.

[Deleted]

The '90/'91 Gulf War had a low cost: only a few hundred dead, most of the financial costs paid by Saoudi Arabia.

Plus thousands of lives ruined due to PTSD.

[Sarnaxxx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi



I tire of reposting the same things. Again, if you truly believe that we've "done nothing wrong!" - you're deluding yourself. We DID create this situation. It wasn't me personally, and it wasn't you personally, but our government has participated in the systematic abuse and exploitation of third world countries, including the Middle East. It is not unrealistic to expect them to fight back, in the only way they can.

I don't believe anywhere in my post did I say we've done nothing wrong. I said we are not exploiting the resources of the countries we are currently engaged in conflict within.

[Scinder]

I agree with the OP.

Then plainly put, you are a fool.

Our support for Israel is the main reason that we were targeted by Al Qaeda, and, quite honestly, they have a right to be pissed off.

Wrong on so many levels.

I have zero respect for anybody who willingly chooses to fight and kill for a government.

Good. I have zero respect for you. We don't fight for a government. We fight for our country. If you were to catch on fire, I suppose it would be OK for me to keep on walking. You must be one of those Westboro Baptist nutjobs.