[Mage] 5.2 PTR Discussion (based on Feb 19 notes)

[Polarthief]

^My thoughts exactly.

I would prefer Ice Lance to do full damage without stacks but that would probably just cause even more pvp problems.

Simple fix to that: All Frost spells deal 15% less damage to players (including Waterbolt). Stacking debuff is now removed; all Frost spells are increased by 20%.

Boom. Took me two seconds to come up with that shit.

That, or just remove our worthless in PvE/OP in PvP Mastery and replace it with something balanced in both...? Yeah, there's a nice thought.

They just put little to no effort into coming up with something balanced and come up with a quick fix that ends up making someone (PvE players atm) unhappy with a stupid bullshit change.

[zomgDPS]

Simple fix to that: All Frost spells deal 15% less damage to players (including Waterbolt). Stacking debuff is now removed; all Frost spells are increased by 20%.

As Jt said, that would just cause more PvP problems.


One of the things I personally like to do when I think of proposing a 'change' is to partake in a simple mental exercise to try and ascertain that particular change's 'ripple effect' on the class as a whole.


Say we do remove the 3 stack 'ramp up' of frost (which, to be fair, is nothing like the 'real' ramp up of Arcane. A non-stacked frostbolt still hits very hard. An unstacked Arcane Blast hits like a noodle. This is just to put some context to the whole 'ramp up' idea for frost in the first place).


But, say we do remove the 3 stack 'ramp up' of frost (due to PvE reasons). Let us now do a simple analysis of what we gain vs. what we lose:

Gains:
Gain1: Frost has no 'penalty' (15% 'penalty' to be precise) for target switching fights in raids
Gain2: Frost becomes stronger in PvP, since its main nukes will be at maximum strength right off the bat.

Losses:
Loss1: Due to Gain2, the gap between Frost and non-frost specs will increase as far as PvP viability is concerned. (frost gets stronger, other specs remain the same, delta increases).


Now, quantitatively, that seems like a win (+2 gains vs -1 loss). However, qualitatively it is a big fail.

Are we ready to make the mage class even more imbalanced just to make it 'easier' to switch on fights as frost? Is the fact that Frost has a slightly harder time on target switching fights really the thing that is holding it back in raids? My answer to both, No.

Frost still has a few performance issues in raids, sure, but imho none of those are really tied to its 'target switching weakness' (if we can even call it that). Frost gets trounced in straight up single target fights by fire. This problem wont be fixed by fixing 'target switching'. Therefore, I think that qualitatively, it is a bad trade.

The trade being, make the mage specs more imbalanced in PvP in order to gain some ground in PvE which wont really help the spec (since its getting pwned by fire anyway in non-switching fights).

As for the PvP, Frost is already the strongest spec, so losing out on Gain2 is not really going to cause a dent, i.e. Frost is fine in PvP anyway, it doesn't even need a buff there.


Edit:
I know your exact solution also had the "special rules against players" thing. I was talking more in general about frost's 'ramp up'.
I just do not think blizzard is quite ready to go the route of a broad spectrum damage reduction as a special case for one spec in the game. If they were ready to do things like that in such a wholesale manner, the game would be very very different already.

[Polarthief]

Wall of -snip-

So basically what you're saying is because Frost won't be touched at all from what it is on PTR right now, that it'll be a bad thing?

Makes sense. If the ramp-up was gone, but PvP only got the 32% (without being ABLE to get the ramp up anyways) and PvE got the 52%, that would clearly separate the gap from PTR as it is, right?

PTR atm: 52% on Frostbolt
Proposed PTR change: 32% on FB, +5% per stack, up to 51.8% (52% for the sake of ease)
My proposed change: 52% in PvE, 32% in PvP. In addition, Ice Lance and Frostfire Bolt (when procced) and Waterbolt now do 15% additional damage at all times (to make up for the lack of the ramp-up). This 15% increase is NOT against players.

I don't get how this would change a thing in PvP.

Also, if they aren't ready for a "special rules against players" thing, then why did we have old Deep Freeze? Why did Frost Bomb get nerfed ONLY against players?

[zomgDPS]

Also, if they aren't ready for a "special rules against players" thing, then why did we have old Deep Freeze? Why did Frost Bomb get nerfed ONLY against players?

This is true, and the idea isn't that there is no precedence of 'special rules' at all.
Though blizz has stated that they aren't so happy about 'special rules' (I agree with them really) but they will do it for control spells and other specific spells under very specific contexts and usually, as a last resort.


What you are asking for, however, is a wholesale special case for the entire spell list of Frost (Ice lance, Frostbolt, waterbolt etc), basically a total damage reduction of the spec vs players.

There is no precedent for that, i.e. creating 'special rules' for entire specs.

[Erolian]

I'd rather question their tools and design goals (as in what is okay and what isn't okay) while attempting to balance WoW in general. I honestly feel like the buff/nerf ride is there intentionally. The gap between say the very top and the very bottom is gigantic. So they say don't compare yourself to the top? (in a recent blue post) Okay. Does that also go for the very bottom? Well it shouldn't because we all want to be middle of the pack in theory. So that leaves us with a few different options.

1. Their tools are not complete and these things are a result of unexpected results/bad internal simulations. (Think scorch weaving)
2. The difference is there somewhat intentionally in most cases to add flavor and excitement for the next patch to see what will be fixed or not.
3. They find that large of a gap acceptable.
4. All of the above.

Personally I'm going to go with option 4. I'm not sure if I'm really happy about that though. Continuing along with that thought you'll realize most of the discussion and complaints about balance are somewhat wishful thinking. Somewhat like complaining that the sky is blue and it should be purple because you feel it matches the sun better that way. Its that likely to be fixed for good. Maybe we should focus on telling them this style of design isn't okay rather than lobbying for buffs/nerfs. Of course I could be entirely wrong but I have such a hard time believing people bright enough to create this game could unintentionally for 8 years never actually balance the game or even get close to it and then flip the table every time a new expansion came out if they were serious about getting it right to the degree that we ask them to.

[zomgDPS]

The gap between say the very top and the very bottom is gigantic.

It may be big, but let us also remember, the gap between the very top and the very bottom is smaller than it has ever been before in the history of WoW.

And no.. I'm not defending Blizz, I just think we should beat up on them in areas where there is an actual, factual reason to beat them up.



WoW is, right now in MoP, numerically at least, in the best state of 'balance' it has ever been in its entire lifetime. Every single spec, bar none, 'works' in PvE. Just that statement alone could not have been made in the past.
Sure.. not all specs are identical, but that is a separate issue. And sure.. there have been many casualties along the way (the biggest one being the lost "war against homogenization" that I used to go on and on about in MoP Beta), but if 'numerical balance' is your poison of choice, MoP is the best version of hemlock we've been force fed yet.



What we need to realize that there are many many other factors that come into play when we consider what "balance" actually is.
If its just pure, theoretical numerical balance, MoP is doing very well.
But, as we all know, that is not ALL that constitutes balance. Representation is another metric. Game mode is a third (PvP balance, Challenge mode balance, rBG balance). Toolkit can also play its part, so can the ever so elusive 'fun'. When we start considering these things, the matrix of what makes up "balance" starts to explode, exponentially.
Basically what I am saying is, balancing an ever evolving system is hard.

Remember, the WoW of today is fundamentally different from the WoW of vanilla. There are new classes, new game modes, new playstyles, new mechanics, new spells, new talents. Every WoW expansion takes the existing system and expands it, so even if you lets say managed to attain "perfect balance" at the end of a expos cycle, just the fact that the next expo just adds so much new 'stuff' will bring you back to imbalance again.


But all this is not the problem. The problem, in actual fact (at least for the mage class) is communication.


Blizz's balance team is just a handful of noobs like us, i.e. they are just like 6-10 dudes. The scope of the game alone keeps them busy. Contrary to what you may think (or even what blizz themselves delude themselves into thinking), Blizz relies on their own community to shed light on aspects of this monstrous system when something is wrong. They rely on 'feedback' from players like you and me to tell them when something is broken and when something is OP or UP.

This is where mages (and blizz) fucked up during beta. The entire mage community almost wholesale went into Polymorph: Cat mode and chilled... hoping its every so wise "MVP" would do this 'feedback' for us.
It failed, and things that were glaring issues were not brought to light. The epic design failure of Arcane is such an example. The very failure they have been scrambling to fix with 5.2.

Basically, the handful of dudes at Blizz who are in charge of Balance have too large a system to handle for them to deal with every little detail all the time, and this is where compromises must be made. If spec A for class X is not viable in gameplay mode 1, then so be it, as long as that class has some other aspect of itself that is balanced. Currently, for almost all classes, Raids is that aspect. Every single class in the game is raid viable. In Blizz's mind, that is a good place to be.

But yes.. all this does mean that some specs to get left behind. Some are sacrificed for the greater system to remain healthy. How do you fix that problem?

Well, to start, the mage community can use its trinket and get out of polymorph and realize that it cannot afford to sit and take catnaps and leave the future of its class in the hands of woefully inadequate players who have agendas that are masked in green text.



Basically, you think the game is imbalanced? Fine. Fix it by making your voice heard. Especially in the next beta. Do not let those who are ill-informed and out of touch do the talking for you.

How will your voice be heard? Speak blizzard's language. Despite what you think, Blizz actually does respond to logic. Use it like the lethal weapon that it is. Articulate specific problems and formulate potential solutions. Perform analysis and present your findings. Build consensus. Force change through intellect.

Just like any good nerd or nerdlette would do. Just like any good mage would do.

[Shangalar]

Do you plan to post the test analysis with your opinions to the main forums, specifically Ghostcrawler's balance thread? I don't have access to the US forums. We might still be able to force some number tweaks.

[Ryken]

This is where mages (and blizz) fucked up during beta. The entire mage community almost wholesale went into Polymorph: Cat mode and chilled... hoping its every so wise "MVP" would do this 'feedback' for us.
It failed, and things that were glaring issues were not brought to light. The epic design failure of Arcane is such an example. The very failure they have been scrambling to fix with 5.2.

I don't think that is entirely accurate, there were a lot of very vocal and forceful mages pushing for the level 90 talents to be scrapped. You are right about the MVP thing though When you have one very prominent person saying everything is fine, even though a giant force of people saying they don't want it, it just falls apart. When someone touts on every feedback they give how they gave their feedback through their "direct line" and asked for clarification on questions through their direct line ("Oh yeah, I've shot off an email to the mage developers and am awaiting their response"), everything is done behind the scenes, and the feedback on the forum is directly ignored in favor of the one person in green text saying that they think its fine.

Also, Arcane had the very same treatment as right now. Arcane was changed to 6 stacks 2 weeks before MoP shipped. And we're seeing the same wild changes with arcane right before a patch came out. We weren't content to allow other people to give feedback, they made sweeping design changes without giving any time to test and change, like they're doing right now.

[zomgDPS]

To be honest Shangy, I gave up on the official forums a long, long time ago. I don't think I've posted there since.. well.. I can't even remember.

I surmise Blizz has someone who looks at the MMOc forums (if they don't, they should). That being said, if someone else wants to post our findings from here on those forums, they can most certainly do so.

I just will not be that person. Just the thought of babysitting a thread on the official forums makes my stomach churn. All those trolls, all that noise.

You already know of my propensity to start nuking trolls with harsh language wherever I smell them. I fear I do not have the discipline to restrain long enough to be of any constructive use on the official forums. Not yet at least.


I do have access to other forms of communication though. I will most certainly use those to give some feedback, after the analysis. Though you are right, someone should take our work here and present it.
Any takers?


It might be a little late to force actual number changes before the patch drops, but it would be a good show of consensus on the part of the community nonetheless. Maybe it will get Blizz to listen? If nothing else, it will get people to realize there is more you can do in WoW life than whine and put your knickers on your tits and cry havok.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 07:46 PM ----------

I don't think that is entirely accurate, there were a lot of very vocal and forceful mages pushing for the level 90 talents to be scrapped. You are right about the MVP thing though When you have one very prominent person saying everything is fine, even though a giant force of people saying they don't want it, it just falls apart.

Oh you are completely right, but it is precisely that second part of your statement that is the key.

What made it worse was that the handful of knowledgeable mages who did present arguements to the contrary were drowned out by the droves of trolls, idiots, noobs and heretics who rallyed behind nothing more than green text.

The green text just gave him insta-authority and 'credibility' to the point where people didn't even question him anymore (well, the 'other' people that is. The few forceful mages kept fighting till the bitter end. Which is why even though PPB is recently going through a massive 'everything sucks' phase, I still have respect for the guy for keeping the fight against the level 90s alive on the official forums for as long as he did).

[Joshythemage]

Mage (Forums, Talent Calculator)
Arcane Missiles damage and SP scaling reduced by 2%.

Arcane
Arcane Barrage base damage reduced by 3% and no longer lists SP scaling.
Arcane Blast base damage and SP scaling reduced by 3%.
Arcane Missiles damage and SP scaling reduced by 2%.

Really Blizzard.... really? Can I have some of what you're smoking?

[Polarthief]

More nerfs to Arcane. JUST WHAT WE NEEDED.

We're already broken. Why are we being broken more?

[Deleted]

To be honest, I was one of the lazy mages who sat back and enjoyed, that other people do tests and maths for me/us. One example is the very well known formula with invocation and it´s allegedly % damage benefit (@ 20% haste it´s 125 x 40/45 = 111.11%), and Rune is better if you don´t leave it and don´t have to cast twice a minute (115 x 60/61.25 = 112.65%). But that is not thought quite to the end!

You only lose approx 20% respectively "just do" ~80% of your 125% as a frost mage during the 5 seconds invocation channel. Invocation is way stronger than RoP for frost and fire mages, cutting 10% from invocation is a huge nerf.

To make a long story short: I really started to give serious feedback in our german PTR forums, but the only thread with a blue response in the whole forum was in a thread with the topic: "what do you think is the right time to release patch 5.2?"

I really loved my frost spec, I was more exicted to play a frost mage in an encounter, than play the actual encounter. I really don´t now one frost mage who had any complaint against T12 4p frost mage. Everybody was asking for "can we keep that? It´s pretty great!" Then T13 came along and Blizzard started the "we´re screwing things up" tour. I don´t want to list them, I don´t want to write anything about it (thanks to already written wall of text), because I have a feeling Blizzard isn´t listen to me/us. My actual motivation is that I´m really good at playing the FOTM Mage spec in a pretty decent guild with a couple of buddy´s. There is still competition, but less fun for me now. Hope somebody with enough endurance will post in forums till Blizzard is listening.

*Edit* The latest arcane changes is a kick to the lunchbox for every arcane mage

[Firebert]

Arcane Barrage base damage reduced by 3% and no longer lists SP scaling.

I hope that's a tooltip bug. AB now always does 1k damage.

[Sw1tch]

Well we're at the point in the PTR where we can safely say Frost isn't getting Water Jet.

Let's see:
Most proc generation now passive: On demand burst virtually gone
Damage put into frostbolt to compensate.


This just screams laziness. We didnt even get RoP changes.

[Soulstrike]

interesting tweaking in numbers going on...... 25% in whole.... thats quiet alot....... lol >_<

i wish they just change the mana cost down to 100% per charge though...

[Zavri]

Can safely say arcane is broken now. It's fire or go home with the new trinkets. Really gonna enjoy RNG based bullshit again, yay.....

[Soulstrike]

can someone on ptr see if they changed the arcane charge again??? (ive been hearing about 60% damage 180% mana cost......)

[Deleted]

Well arcane is dead... Another global ~3% nerf after the chain of nerfs... I think they don't know what to do with arcane, so just break it completely so they don't have to think about it anymore..

[mrgreenthump]

The hilarious thing is, they will prolly notice how bad arcane is.. and are overbuffing(after they realise how bad it is) it for sure. I dont really know where they are getting the data though..

Edit: Fixed for Zavri

[Zavri]

The hilarious thing is, they notice how bad arcane is.. and are overbuffing it for sure. I dont really know where they are getting the data though..

lolwut?


10charrr