Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Ragashii]

Used to raid back in BC and wrath. Raid team broke up during ICC and since then I've been terrified of raiding. Only raided a handful of times in Cataclysm and only to help out friends. Did a couple raids on call with some guilds in MoP so far with my deathknight, but haven't cleared anything outside of LFR. People say that I'm not terrible, but deep down I feel as though I am in every way. So I just avoid raiding for the most part. Same goes for PVP, mostly avoid arena and RBGs because I don't want to be carried. Not sure how many others out there like me, just don't feel up to par with raiding and don't want to drag others down because of it.

[Simon_Moon]

I raided on a schedule from the launch of 3.3 until the end of cata and it was a lot of fun. Now I can't commit to a schedule anymore. During T14 that did not keep me from pugging my way to all ahead of the curve av's and a few hard modes. No I missed the start of ToT and have even less time but would like to raid once in a while. But guess what No exp. no raid spot. This gets frustrating so fast I might resort to LFR only. Will try again this weekend and see. I still have friends in casual raiding guilds and I see they often farm heart of fear and terrace rather than wiping in ToT. Maybe the tier needs more time. There are plenty of groups for old raids.

[Karizee]

I quit last year after we downed H Deathwing. There's only 2 members of my old raid team still playing, they transferred to Area 52.

The rest of us are playing GW2 & LoL.

[SodiumChloride]

Then over 70% of normal raiders suck.

Maybe the solution is to tune NORMAL raids to NORMAL raiders level?

Blizzard has already removed/loosen the DPS checks on normal. What next? Nerf the mechanics? Then we would be going into LFR territory and normal raiders can't look down on LFR players anymore. LOL.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard has already removed/loosen the DPS checks on normal. What next? Nerf the mechanics? Then we would be going into LFR territory and normal raiders can't look down on LFR players anymore. LOL.

There is a huge gap between LFR and the current normal mode. You are engaging in hysterical exaggeration.

[Glorious Leader]

There is a huge gap between LFR and the current normal mode. You are engaging in hysterical exaggeration.

Sadly that's the only kinda debate were gonna get I think. Histrionics and hyperbole. The gap is so wide between lfr and normal mode it feels roughly akin to dropping a pencil down a mine shaft. In fact it feels greater than the gap between normals and heroics in previous expansions. It would be closer to call LFR the new normal and everything else just hard. Closer but not exact. Normal should have some challenge and lfr is a pushover by and large but the alternative normal raids are to hard. The concept of medium difficulty escapes Blizzard.

[rhorle]

It was doable earlier on (people in college didn't do much during the week as they do in real world), but when you get older it's less feasible unless you are a basement dwelling neckbeard.

Right because you can't manage a scheduled event in your life every one that can must be basement dwelling neck beards. There is no need to insult people for being able to manage a commitment when you can't or are unwilling to. Millions of people have standing commitments that they honor each week from Bar Trivia to Church functions to Sports.

[Glorious Leader]

Right because you can't manage a scheduled event in your life every one that can must be basement dwelling neck beards. There is no need to insult people for being able to manage a commitment when you can't or are unwilling to. Millions of people have standing commitments that they honor each week from Bar Trivia to Church functions to Sports.

Oddly enough I can do those activities and not really worry about who I take with me. Like if I just do beer league baseball I can take my buds and just chill. If I do bar trivia I can do the same thing. Apparently if I want to raid NORMAL dungeons, even if I'm some bottom dwelling neckbeard I can't just take my friends and roll with them. They have to be persons of a special enough qualitae lest we wipe for hours on end on NORMAL content and have no fun.

The activities you listed can all be accomplished in some casual form. It's hard to see how you can do normal raiding in a casual form given the current tuning.

[Crashdummy]

Blizzard has already removed/loosen the DPS checks on normal. What next? Nerf the mechanics? Then we would be going into LFR territory and normal raiders can't look down on LFR players anymore. LOL.

Blizzard has not done such thing. They applied a 10% nerf to old content, which is less than what was aplied in the last expansions.

What they nshould do is design CURRENT NORMAL DIFFICULTY for NORMAL PLAYERS SKILL LEVEL.

Not that hard to understand really.

[namelessone]

Right because you can't manage a scheduled event in your life every one that can must be basement dwelling neck beards. There is no need to insult people for being able to manage a commitment when you can't or are unwilling to. Millions of people have standing commitments that they honor each week from Bar Trivia to Church functions to Sports.

Well, the thing is that WoW Raids demand much more time than they are ultimately worth. As you said, there are dozens of things that require same time commitment that are much, MUCH more fun than wiping on a boss for 20 times straight. It seems like we've got an answer to "Where have all the raiders gone" - Bar Trivia, Sports and Church functions.

[sarahfireworks]

At the height of Cata my guild had 4 raid groups, a Saturday alt run and a Sunday/Monday RBG team. Now we are having trouble fielding teams on our evening and late night groups. When MoP dropped we had a wealth of players that were frothing at the mouth for a chance to raid. Literally 40+ players on everyday. We figured Fielding 1 team wouldn't be an issue but fielding 3 teams might be difficult. With in the first 3 months we were one of many guilds endlessly spamming trade to find 1 more dps or 1 more healer for raid. I have seen some of the other guilds that we used to compete with going through the same issues.

As so many have said, and for some reason I can't help but repeat, what you're seeing isn't unusual. Many people don't raid for more than 1 or 2 expansions. The friends you knew will move on to other things, both in-game and outside WoW. Remember the good times you had, and enjoy reminiscing with people as they pop in and out over the years trying out the new content and sharing old stories. Find a new group to raid with, and enjoy being one of the experienced ones now.

[Glorious Leader]

Well, the thing is that WoW Raids demand much more time than they are ultimately worth. As you said, there are dozens of things that require same time commitment that are much, MUCH more fun than wiping on a boss for 20 times straight. It seems like we've got an answer to "Where have all the raiders gone" - Bar Trivia, Sports and Church functions.

I doubt that somehow. Like it's certainly possible but I suspect that the raiders have moved onto MOBAs basically. League and Dota. They're difficult enough but not overtly difficult so that they get frustrated and want to quit. I mean I can play 4 or 5 games of dota and have alot more fun or I can wipe on horridon for an hour and a half or two hours.

Mists is kinda burning players out to I think and as such their patience for things like wiping over and over again is extremely thin. When you couple that with raid tuning that's over the top and PREVENTS you from raiding with some of your pals who are good raiders but maybe not good enough for this tier then you end up feeling kinda shitty about raiding in warcraft. It's not fun for anybody. The guy who runs my raid currently said it best, he said "I just wanted to come back and raid casually but I got sucked into being hardcore because that's what ToT is asking and now I have to tell people their not welcome to our raid and deal with all kinds of shitty drama when I just want to play the game" and he's right.

[Strykie]

Game is almost completely catered towards casuals.
10m raiding equality damaged 25m guilds.
10m guilds damaged themselves because they're too small, people burn out faster.

Its why i unsubbed and sold all my gold for a nice profit.
The game is dead to the more skilled playerbase, the top guilds are a shadow of what they used to be.

[Pua]

Blizzard has not done such thing. They applied a 10% nerf to old content, which is less than what was aplied in the last expansions.

What they nshould do is design CURRENT NORMAL DIFFICULTY for NORMAL PLAYERS SKILL LEVEL.

Not that hard to understand really.

This is essentially how I view it (though, less angrily). I think the biggest problem is what you define as a "normal" raider, and it's a debate I had with my guildmates on Mumble tonight. A couple of them were saying how terrible some of our previous players on Argent Dawn were, and I felt the need to correct them; they weren't terrible, they were average. It was purely that the core of our raid group was better than that.

I'd say "terrible" is the player who's recently picked up the game, levelled to 90, learned precious little on the way, and enters LFR under the pretty fair assumption that it won't be all that different to what he's come to expect from questing and dungeoneering. Gear will be next to meaningless. That's my "terrible", and that's who LFR is probably aimed at.

I'd say an average player is someone who has maybe played a couple of classes, but clearly prefers one (and probably one role). He's relatively well clued-in to what his buttons do and how his class fits into the bigger picture, and he might have spent a bit of time on the forums. He'll probably be gemmed and enchanted and will likely cap Valor each week.

This, I think, is the crux:

Is normal raiding aimed at the second person?

If it is, Cataclysm and MoP raiding has been too punitive for him because it's demanded far more of his time than he's willing to commit. If it's not, that begs the question:

Who is normal mode raiding aimed at?

I don't want an argument about how easy content is for you, or even the current rate of normal progression according to WoW Progress. I want to know who normal modes are aimed at, if the second person is considered too casual in his approach.

[Millie]

10m guilds damaged themselves because they're too small, people burn out faster.

The fuck logic is this?

[Glorious Leader]

This is essentially how I view it (though, less angrily). I think the biggest problem is what you define as a "normal" raider, and it's a debate I had with my guildmates on Mumble tonight. A couple of them were saying how terrible some of our previous players on Argent Dawn were, and I felt the need to correct them; they weren't terrible, they were average. It was purely that the core of our raid group was better than that.

I'd say "terrible" is the player who's recently picked up the game, levelled to 90, learned precious little on the way, and enters LFR under the pretty fair assumption that it won't be all that different to what he's come to expect from questing and dungeoneering. Gear will be next to meaningless. That's my "terrible", and that's who LFR is probably aimed at.

I'd say an average player is someone who has maybe played a couple of classes, but clearly prefers one (and probably one role). He's relatively well clued-in to what his buttons do and how his class fits into the bigger picture, and he might have spent a bit of time on the forums. He'll probably be gemmed and enchanted and will likely cap Valor each week.

This, I think, is the crux:

Is normal raiding aimed at the second person?

If it is, Cataclysm and MoP raiding has been too punitive for him because it's demanded far more of his time than he's willing to commit. If it's not, that begs the question:

Who is normal mode raiding aimed at?

I don't want an argument about how easy content is for you, or even the current rate of normal progression according to WoW Progress. I want to know who normal modes are aimed at, if the second person is considered too casual in his approach.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. I agree alot of average players are being left out but I think average itself is also nuanced. Their are players who are above average and blew average but not quite ya elite heroic raiders. This current raid tier is really pushing it. I like to think I'm above average but I found myself stressed to the extreme on some of these fights.

Ultimatly I think Normal should equal Medium and being Medium it should it should be fairly broad but also present SOME challenges. I don't know how else to explain medium other than it has to encompass alot more players than it currently is.

[Deleted]

Just like Lefties, Communists and Socialists, equality destroys competition. Without competition, motivation is non-existent.

Major amounts of raiders have left the game because quite simply................what is the point?


You see every raid and boss in the whole game by AFK'ing in LFR.


WoW raiding is utterly pointless.

[Glorious Leader]

Just like Lefties, Communists and Socialists, equality destroys competition. Without competition, motivation is non-existent.

Major amounts of raiders have left the game because quite simply................what is the point?


You see every raid and boss in the whole game by AFK'ing in LFR.


WoW raiding is utterly pointless.

And always has been. In general nobody gives a fuck about your "competition" and why people looked to pve for competition I will never understand. People are after a good time. They aren't after to epeen against other dudes in their server. In general I believe this is true. You may be an outlier but yea whatever I guess I'm a socialist communist marxist.

[Crashdummy]

This is essentially how I view it (though, less angrily). I think the biggest problem is what you define as a "normal" raider, and it's a debate I had with my guildmates on Mumble tonight. A couple of them were saying how terrible some of our previous players on Argent Dawn were, and I felt the need to correct them; they weren't terrible, they were average. It was purely that the core of our raid group was better than that.

I'd say "terrible" is the player who's recently picked up the game, levelled to 90, learned precious little on the way, and enters LFR under the pretty fair assumption that it won't be all that different to what he's come to expect from questing and dungeoneering. Gear will be next to meaningless. That's my "terrible", and that's who LFR is probably aimed at.

I'd say an average player is someone who has maybe played a couple of classes, but clearly prefers one (and probably one role). He's relatively well clued-in to what his buttons do and how his class fits into the bigger picture, and he might have spent a bit of time on the forums. He'll probably be gemmed and enchanted and will likely cap Valor each week.

This, I think, is the crux:

Is normal raiding aimed at the second person?

If it is, Cataclysm and MoP raiding has been too punitive for him because it's demanded far more of his time than he's willing to commit. If it's not, that begs the question:

Who is normal mode raiding aimed at?

I don't want an argument about how easy content is for you, or even the current rate of normal progression according to WoW Progress. I want to know who normal modes are aimed at, if the second person is considered too casual in his approach.

We can discuss what a normal raider is, but i think that the best 25% of the raiding groups is not what a "normal raider" is.

In my opinion, a normal player is the players that fall onto the middle part of a normal curve. WoW's raiding skill level population, as with most populations, are defined in a Normal curve. MOst of the people are in the middle, a few are on the top, anda few are on the bottom.

The top one are the heroic raiders, the bottom one are the "bads" that should fail. The ones in the middle should progress slower than the ones in the top but should progress at a pace that allows them to finish the raid before the next one is launched (which in this case would be 5 months with several months of item upgrades nerfing the content).

Basically, any player doing about 50% of the maximum potential DPS/Healing, properly geared, gemmed and enchanted that moves out of crap should be able finish the raids after some months of them. This does not happen in HoF or ToT.

[Osmeric]

Game is almost completely catered towards casuals.

Casuals in raiding have been relegated to the LFR ghetto. If your attitude is "you have leveling and pet battles and dailies, be happy!" then, no, I don't think of any of that is good enough to replace what WoW had been offering to casuals in Wrath: participation in the "real" end game content.